Are we experiencing Chastisement?

[bruno33]

I firmly agree with a notion that an epic chastisement is imminent, and not on my own.

Here are some of my considerations.
I have serious difficulties with chastisements per se (and in particular with the above quote) and their announced coming by various persons. We simply do not know, when the end will come. All we are asked by our Lord to be prepared and to keep his commandments. Those predictions are distractions, which clutter our minds and tend to preoccupy us. No, we do not live through a chastisement. But humanity violates grossly its nature (via many of the sins) and she is unforgiving. The current steep rise in STD’s and AIDS is a case in point. A further illustration is the collapse of the western countries in regard of their population. The destruction of the population pyramid will have such severe consequences on a cultural and economic basis. The same can be said about the callous undermining of the family. We see children growing up bereft of any social instinct, bent on destruction of their fellow men and themselves…All those things go against its natural design and therefor we are suffering the logical consequences. Because in contrast to God’s readiness to forgive us sinners always, nature is very unforgiving. One violates her at ones own peril.

On a second note. I object to the term “corporate sins”, which is frequently mentioned in this thread. I strongly believe there are only personal sins. Countries and or corporations as such can never commit sins, only the people who inhabit the same, can.

God forgives always, men sometimes, nature never.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I agree with Irish mac’s viewpoint. Once we entered sin everythin gwent pear shaped. Man cannot live independantly of god. when we do, we suffer the repurcussions. NOt because God wants to punish us, it’s the natural progression of things. We make our choices and world leaders make their choices. we can do so in accordance with God or not. When we make bad choices, we suffer the repurcussions, not because God wants to punish us, but because he wants to lead us to truth and goodness. I believe we bring sorrow on ourselves because of the course of action we decided to take. It not chastisement so much as you reap what you sow. Soe sorrow that is what you will reap. sow joy, sow love, that is what you reap.

Agreed!

The problem with the idea of God’s punishment when we sin, can be found in John 9, when Jesus healed the blind man. The Pharisees taught the people that the man was born blind because of the sins of his parents and his. When they asked Jesus, “who sins caused this man to be born blind, his or those of his parents?” Jesus answered, “neither.”

We can easily get caught in the same mind-set as the Pharisees, when we believe that God punishes those who sin with suffering.

Jim

 

[spauline]

Agreed!

The problem with the idea of God’s punishment when we sin, can be found in John 9, when Jesus healed the blind man. The Pharisees taught the people that the man was born blind because of the sins of his parents and his. When they asked Jesus, “who sins caused this man to be born blind, his or those of his parents?” Jesus answered, “neither.”

We can easily get caught in the same mind-set as the Pharisees, when we believe that God punishes those who sin with suffering.

Jim

Now, wait a minute, you don’t have critical thinking skills. I NEVER SAID, IF someone HAPPENS to be suffering, it because it is because they have SINNED! Never said that. You accuse me of being a calvinist: God blesses holy people materialistically and God punishes bad people with suffering? Uh, I don’t think so! You don’t believe me? read my essay on suffering: Reflecting on the Tragedy

Usually it’s the opposite: bad people prosper and good people suffer.

Look, punishment is a bad word. If I have used it, I apologize. “Chastisement” does not have to mean “punishment” in the sense of condemnation. It can mean merciful discipline! Do not parents (who have heads) SPANK their children? Do they delight in it? Are they doing it to CONDEMN? Or are they doing it as a corrective measure, so that the child learns that it is wrong? Or are one of these progressive rock, swedish ultra liberals who believes that spanking children is child abuse?

 

[spauline]

also another thing: was the Flood just an accident? It just “happened that way?” I recall an earlier thread on this. As far as I am concerned, the Flood was a DELIBERATE Divine Intervention. God DELIBERATELY intervened and POSITIVELY CAUSED the Flood, not as condemnation of humanity, but to “mercifully chastise” a sinful world. God did not destroy the world in the flood as an act of “condemnation” or “judgement” but as an act of merciful redemption. Humanity needed to be shown that there ARE consequences for sin, but so as to begin a new world, a world that was cleansed of sin and rebegun anew. But at the end of the world, it truly will be DELIBERATE destruction, DELIBERATE CONDEMNATION.

This problem with liberal Catholic theology was adequately argued by Father Rutner: he says that modern Catholics in the US like to think of God, not as a Father, but as a Grandfather. Grandpa does not discipline. Grandpa just comes to bring candy and make you feel warm and fuzzy. Grandpa does not spank. Grandpa babies you. But God is NOT a Grandfather, he’s a FATHER, who disciplines! Father will spank you! Father will chastise you. We need to recover the sense of a God who is positively offended by sin.

I don’t know about you, but I am OFFENDED by modern youth, who are unimaginably superfiical. Who think that sex is nothing more than mutual masturbation. Who have no regard even for natural intellectual questions, let alone the religious. If I, with my imperfect love, am offended and angered by these insults, how much more so is God? Yes, God has suffered for such enemies of Him, but He is still offended.

My family still testifies, although I was not present, that when my other family members were persisting in their sin and arguing with my mother, that suddenly the house began to viloently shake. My family became afraid, and said, what’s going on?! And my mother confirmed, “God is OFFENDED, He is showing that I am right.” And my mother was simply standing up for what was the truth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Now, wait a minute, you don’t have critical thinking skills. I NEVER SAID, IF someone HAPPENS to be suffering, it because it is because they have SINNED! Never said that. You accuse me of being a calvinist:

I didn’t accuse you of anything, please don’t take it that way.

The focus of this thread is whether God is sending us Chastisements because of our sins.

I don’'t believe He is. I believe the things happening are the natural consequences for sin.

Jim

 

[spauline]

I didn’t accuse you of anything, please don’t take it that way.

The focus of this thread is whether God is sending us Chastisements because of our sins.

I don’'t believe He is. I believe the things happening are the natural consequences for sin.

Jim

Dear Jim,

I’m sorry about my harsh words. Many times I get carried away. I’m sorry I took it the wrong way. Can you please forgive me?

Well, actually, I was going to also point out, like predestination and free will, it is a “little bit of both” and not “either/or”. I absolutely agree that we bring sufferings upon ourselves because of our sins, i.e., I absolutely agree there are consequences, and if the sufferings come in our time, I wholeheartedly agree that MOST of the problems will be the consequences of our sins.

but I still think there is, quote on quote, Divine Intervention. I used the Flood as an example. that is, many times its just the consequences of sins, but other times it can also be Divine Intervention to spank us. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I apologize again for my harshness and pray that you forgive me.

May God Bless us all spiritually, in good times and in bad, whatever will be.
In Her Love,
scott

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How Ironic it is, that todays Gospel is on this very subject.

Jim

 

[Tom317]

I didn’t accuse you of anything, please don’t take it that way.

The focus of this thread is whether God is sending us Chastisements because of our sins.

I don’'t believe He is. I believe the things happening are the natural consequences for sin.

Jim

How do you explain the flood, Sodom and Gommorah, the Israelites wandering in the desrt, Moses not being allowed into the Promised Land, Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt, the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem sacked in 70AD? (there are of coure many more examples)

The Bible is fairly clear that those were just punishments for sins, also known as chastisements.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How do you explain the flood, Sodom and Gommorah, the Israelites wandering in the desrt, Moses not being allowed into the Promised Land, Lot’s wife being turned into a pillar of salt, the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem sacked in 70AD? (there are of coure many more examples)

The Bible is fairly clear that those were just punishments for sins, also known as chastisements.

The Old Testament is written in the context of ancient tribal theology, where the people believed suffering from disasters and disease, was the result of God’s wrath upon them for their sins. This theological mindset, also gave them cause to stone to death those who committed certain sins like adultery, because after all, if they didn’t punish these individuals, God would punish all of them collectively for sins committed by others.

Of course, Jesus showed how this was wrong. Jesus taught about God being a merciful father and that he himself did not come to condemn.

Read todays Gospel. Luke 13:1-9 Jesus clearly rebukes the idea, that those who were killed were killed because they were greater sinners than others who were spared.

Jim

 

[Catholic_Dude]

How Ironic it is, that todays Gospel is on this very subject.
Jim

I know it is amazing, right when I heard it I thought of this thread which I forgot about until today.

The Old Testament is written in the context of ancient tribal theology, where the people believed suffering from disasters and disease, was the result of God’s wrath upon them for their sins. This theological mindset, also gave them cause to stone to death those who committed certain sins like adultery, because after all, if they didn’t punish these individuals, God would punish all of them collectively for sins committed by others.

I disagree with your interpretation, it wasnt “tribal theology” mindset. The Bible is clear, especially in regards to the Jews that nation wide sin resulted in nation wide disaster. The Sunday Mass reading from 1 Cor 10 says this very very clearly.

Of course, Jesus showed how this was wrong. Jesus taught about God being a merciful father and that he himself did not come to condemn.

Jesus never showed that was wrong, in today’s Gospel reading Jesus says multiple times “unless you repent you will also perish”
Jesus didnt come to condemn but He didnt come to put up with sin either. Man brings the disaster on himself.

Read todays Gospel. Luke 13:1-9 Jesus clearly rebukes the idea, that those who were killed were killed because they were greater sinners than others who were spared.

Not exactly. First its worth noting there is such a thing as a “greater sin” ( Jn 19:11, Luke 12:48) who will receive greater punishment. Second you have to consider the level of sin. The point of this teaching was to say, there is a level of sin that deserves punishment and some have, at that time most are in that level of sin but since you dont know when that punishment will come about repent while you still have the chance.

 

[lumena]

The problem with writing on these forums is everyone turns everything into a fight. The truth will set you free. Let the truth be said. God loved the Jews but they were a bunch of whinning babies and He got tired of putting up with them so He said your outta here.

I think that people have turned God into a type of Santa Claus. Really we have to be honest. I am surprised that God isn’t sending balls of fire down from Heaven on to all of us. Please we all have earned it we have to be the one putting forth the effort to receive God’s grace, it is freely given to a point, but God does expect us to work at being holy. NO One is perfect. God said be like your Father who is perfect.

I heard a Priest that is giving the mission I am going to this week say just today that “Katrina” and “911” were chastisements. The best explaination that I have ever come across to point out a lot of what we are missing about God pushing us where we need to go is one from “The Antichrist” by Vincent P Miceli, S.J. and the “Sermons of the Cure of Ars” Tan books. Puts your head in the right direction. Helps one to see that we aren’t doing what God is calling us to do. How many of us to fall prey every day to the comforts of America, I mean come on, and we think we suffer. God has got to supply us with the suffering or we can walk around without even being affected by life.

I believe we are in more trouble than we wish to realize.

 

[paramedicgirl]

The problem with writing on these forums is everyone turns everything into a fight. The truth will set you free. Let the truth be said. God loved the Jews but they were a bunch of whinning babies and He got tired of putting up with them so He said your outta here.

I think that people have turned God into a type of Santa Claus. Really we have to be honest. I am surprised that God isn’t sending balls of fire down from Heaven on to all of us. Please we all have earned it we have to be the one putting forth the effort to receive God’s grace, it is freely given to a point, but God does expect us to work at being holy. NO One is perfect. God said be like your Father who is perfect.

I heard a Priest that is giving the mission I am going to this week say just today that “Katrina” and “911” were chastisements. The best explaination that I have ever come across to point out a lot of what we are missing about God pushing us where we need to go is one from “The Antichrist” by Vincent P Miceli, S.J. and the “Sermons of the Cure of Ars” Tan books. Puts your head in the right direction. Helps one to see that we aren’t doing what God is calling us to do. How many of us to fall prey every day to the comforts of America, I mean come on, and we think we suffer. God has got to supply us with the suffering or we can walk around without even being affected by life.

I believe we are in more trouble than we wish to realize.

You make some good points, especially about getting used to the comforts we have and not recognizing the value or meaning of sacrifice any longer. We think every little inconvenience is an annoyance rather than a blessing, if only we were thoughtful enough to offer it up in atonement for our sins.

Yes, I believe we are in trouble, too. God sees all, and will reward our nations accordingly. He did it in biblical times, and he has done it throughout history.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Catholic Dude

I disagree with your interpretation, it wasnt “tribal theology” mindset. The Bible is clear, especially in regards to the Jews that nation wide sin resulted in nation wide disaster. The Sunday Mass reading from 1 Cor 10 says this very very clearly

.

Scripture Scholars read the Old Testament in the mindset of Tribal theology from where it was written. If we didn’t but read it literally as the fundamentalist do, we would be stoning people to death for various sins, as commanded by Moses.

Jesus never showed that was wrong, in today’s Gospel reading Jesus says multiple times “unless you repent you will also perish”

Perish because the consequences of sin is death, not God’s punishment and condemnation.

Jesus didnt come to condemn but He didnt come to put up with sin either. Man brings the disaster on himself.

It was sinners precisely that he came for. He himself said so.

First its worth noting there is such a thing as a “greater sin” ( Jn 19:11, Luke 12:48) who will receive greater punishment. Second you have to consider the level of sin. The point of this teaching was to say, there is a level of sin that deserves punishment and some have, at that time most are in that level of sin but since you dont know when that punishment will come about repent while you still have the chance.

It’s not so much that sin deserves punishment, but the nature of sin itself, brings death and suffering. It is not God punishing man because of sin. If this were so, he wouldn’t have bothered to redeem us through Jesus Christ His son. It makes no sense that he would punish us with death, but also redeem us at the same time. This is contradictory.

Jim

 

[Tom317]

The Old Testament is written in the context of ancient tribal theology, where the people believed suffering from disasters and disease, was the result of God’s wrath upon them for their sins. This theological mindset, also gave them cause to stone to death those who committed certain sins like adultery, because after all, if they didn’t punish these individuals, God would punish all of them collectively for sins committed by others.

Of course, Jesus showed how this was wrong. Jesus taught about God being a merciful father and that he himself did not come to condemn.

Read todays Gospel. Luke 13:1-9 Jesus clearly rebukes the idea, that those who were killed were killed because they were greater sinners than others who were spared.

Jim

Before I respond to your points, I think it is important to know where you stand regarding the Bible, and specifically the OT. Do you see it as a collection of non-literal near mythical tales, or do you see it as the inerrant Word of God describing real events? Or, do you see it as something else?

It is very important to know where you stand on that point, so please give a full and honest answer.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Before I respond to your points, I think it is important to know where you stand regarding the Bible, and specifically the OT. Do you see it as a collection of non-literal near mythical tales, or do you see it as the inerrant Word of God describing real events? Or, do you see it as something else?

It is very important to know where you stand on that point, so please give a full and honest answer.

The Bible, is the inerrant word of God. However, it must be understood in the historical and theological context from which it was written.

Literal interpretation will give you what the fundamentalist and KKK groups come up with.

Jim

 

[Tom317]

The Bible, is the inerrant word of God. However, it must be understood in the historical and theological context from which it was written.

Literal interpretation will give you what the fundamentalist and KKK groups come up with.

Jim

Do you believe the events in the OT were real events, or not?

[Note: The Church clearly teaches that there are many senses to Scripture and all must be considered when doing proper exegesis; however, the literal sense is always the primary sense.]

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Do you believe the events in the OT were real events, or not?

[Note: The Church clearly teaches that there are many senses to Scripture and all must be considered when doing proper exegesis; however, the literal sense is always the primary sense.]

Some events are real, other’s are allegorical stories. However, it’s not up to me to interpret but that of the Church, which I accept.

Jim

 

[Tom317]

Some events are real, other’s are allegorical stories. However, it’s not up to me to interpret but that of the Church, which I accept.

Jim

…and the Church accepts the flood, and the other events I mentioned as being real events. The Church does not describe how they could have happened, or when, or even under what social conditions, etc., yet the Church views them as literal and allegorical.

All of the events I listed, and many, many others, were real events and many of those were chastisements brought down by God, beginnig with the fall in the garden. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the fruit or they would die, they ate of the fruit and as a consequence they died along with all humans and all of creations is in woes.

 

[spauline]

why has this thread been voted as poor? I think it’s very good. It separating the men from the boys, rightly discerning between too conservative (fundies) and too liberal (the mushy, God would never punish anyone ****…)

 

[Tom317]

why has this thread been voted as poor? I think it’s very good. It separating the men from the boys, rightly discerning between too conservative (fundies) and too liberal (the mushy, God would never punish anyone ****…)

What am I missing? Where does it say it has been voted poor, how does it get that rating and who does the voting?

Confused.