Are we in the Tribulation?

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Well, according to Jesus in the NT, the Last Days began with the preaching of John the Baptist. . .

There have been many antichrists already, we are told in the New Testament, and many more will come. Which doesn’t mean that there won’t be an archyptical one in future.

It does seem likely that John’s apocalypse has a literary framework, and it is that of the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist.

I have not had the time or means to investigate that more closely, see which elements were present in the liturgy when John celebrated it, nor what impact that might have on the interpretation of the old and new testament apocalyptic materials.

As for the original question: it doesn’t matter whether we are in the Great Tribulation or not. What matters is that we take up our cross and follow Jesus, and love one another.
 
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Puzzled:
As for the original question: it doesn’t matter whether we are in the Great Tribulation or not. What matters is that we take up our cross and follow Jesus, and love one another.
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:amen:
 
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twf:
I am very certain that the Catholic Church does teach a great tribulation in the last days…but I think Karl means not in the same sense as those views taught by Tim LaHaye et al.

Karl, could you perhaps elaborate? I know there is a Tribulation in Catholic teaching, but I know very little about Catholic end-times views. The Bible is quite clear that there will be a great tribulation (or the Day of the Lord) in the last days.
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I was writing about (capital T) Tribulation as Fundamentalists use the term. They see it as a seven-year period that will come before the thousand-year reign of Christ. At some point in the Tribulation will come the Rapture.

All such speculation is new to Christian thought, having arisen only since the nineteenth century. Neither Luther nor Calvin subscribed to such ideas. As years go by and predictions of the Last Days prove false, Dispensationalist theology will have fewer and fewer adherents, but it will take a long time before that error disappears, if it ever does.

The fact is that people like to think they are in the end times and are among the saved remnant. (I have never come across a proponent of the Rapture and Tribulation who thinks he will not be among the raptured.)
 
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twf:
I am very certain that the Catholic Church does teach a great tribulation in the last days…but I think Karl means not in the same sense as those views taught by Tim LaHaye et al.

Karl, could you perhaps elaborate? I know there is a Tribulation in Catholic teaching, but I know very little about Catholic end-times views. The Bible is quite clear that there will be a great tribulation (or the Day of the Lord) in the last days.
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I think it is a shame when Catholic words like Tribulation and Rapture are hijacked and the meaning so changed that we can’t even use them without causing confusion. :rolleyes:

Stephanie
 
I realize that a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is heretical, but is it actually heretical to believe that the Great Tribulation could be 7 years long? How are Daniel’s 70 weeks interpreted in Catholic theology?
 
twf,
Heretical or simply mistaken? Does ones salvation hang one one’s interpretation of the apocalyptic passages of Thessalonians and Daniel?

I wouldn’t tend to think so, myself.
 
I suggest you read Carl E. Olson’s book, will Catholics Be Left Behind? It will answer all your “Rapture” questions. We are currently living in the Kingdom of God. Jesus will return, but NO ONE knows when.
Hope this helps!
Amma
 
I know “end times” speculation abounds, and “Catholic Answers” seems to be forever calming the fears and misconceptions that arise from too much missinformation…but- we are in the end times-right? I mean ever since Christ came we have been in the end times. It seems to me we are heading for “the big showdown”. Because of the Catholic stance on homosexual marrages(to name one) we may soon be told the Catholic church may not exist in the USA(and of coarse, we’d all have to go “underground”). I don’t want to be an alarmest, but to be too calm is to lose our zeal to save souls now. In all of the Apparitions of The Virgin Mary in the recent past, she has warned of the coming chastisement. I think we need to face up to this and not bury our heads in the sand and hope it’s all going to pan out. Don’t forget, in Canada they are passing into law that it is a crime to say that its intrinsicly wrong to practice homosexuality.
 
I have to sort of agree with Carrie on this one. If you just take a step back from the media (which brings us the world) and just get a bird’s eye view of what’s going on, it just makes my blood boil and my heart sink.

I think that with the homosexuality issues, abortion, and the way folks are attacking those who are religious for being faithfull is a CLEAR sign that folks are turning their backs on God. And turning your back is the same as denying him.
 
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twf:
I realize that a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is heretical, but is it actually heretical to believe that the Great Tribulation could be 7 years long? How are Daniel’s 70 weeks interpreted in Catholic theology?
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Read David Curie’s book, “The Rapture: The End Time Thinking That leaves the Bible Behind.” He does a very in depth chapter on Daniel and what, from a Catholic perspective, these passages probably mean.

Anyway, here’s what the Catechism says:

Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.** (CCC 675) **
 
In ref. to the CC quote; if the last 5 years weren’t the “final trial that will shake the faith of many believers” I shutter to think–

Come Holy Spirit!
 
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twf:
If you read through the book of Daniel…we learn that the 4th beast (usually identified as the Roman Empire) is to come cease for a time and then return at the end, with ‘ten horns’ or ‘ten toes’ (in Revelation we see mention of these ten horns, or ten kingdoms, again) as Antichrist’s empire. The book of Daniel is really good for using prophecy to defend the faith…it’s incredible how detailed the prophecies were (which were accurately fulfilled) regarding the Third Beast (identified as Alexander the Great’s Empire), I think the prophecies I’m thinking of are mainly in Daniel 11.
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Find it for us please…there is NO such reference to the 4th beast (kingdon/empire) ceasing. this is rapturist invention.
 
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twf:
I realize that a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is heretical, but is it actually heretical to believe that the Great Tribulation could be 7 years long? How are Daniel’s 70 weeks interpreted in Catholic theology?
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ill try ok… 😃

read this vision in Daniel Carefully. Daniel 9:24-27

Daniel gives u the time table here…

70 weeks. then then 70 is split into 3 periods: 1st=7 weeks; 2nd=62 weeks adnthe last 1=week (7+62+1=70)… 😃

Daniel tells us why seventy weeks are decreed…
“…to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, etc…” ( read verse 24) now he gives us the events surrounding the beginning and end of each period!!

the 1st seven weeks - from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one…

Ezra 7:11-26 - Artaxerxes decrees the rebuilding of the Jerusalem Temple. circa 457 BC. Beginning of the 7 weeks. Jesus’ public ministry, the anointed one.circa 30 AD. Ending of 7 weeks. (7 x 7=49/ the first 7 weeks are about 49 decades)

the second 62 weeks - “…it shall be built again…”

Neh. 2:3-13 - Artaxeres decrees the restoring of the city of Jerusalem. circa 444 BC - Temple finished finally under Herod the Great in 10 BC… thats the 62 weeks. ( 444 BC till 10 BC = 434 years)

then the famous ONE week (as some may call.the Great Tribulation of a future time…nope, wrong!)

daniel 9:26 states that after the 62 weeks the anointed one (JESUS) will be “cut off” …and his people will destroy the city and the sanctuay (temple). Jesus was cut off in circa 30 AD on the cross…the city and sanctuary where destroyed in 70 AD.

but this last week is the week in which these thing happen and also…the “strong covenant” is made. the transition form the Old Covenant to the New in Jesus’ Blood. Incarnation till the Judgment on the Old Covenant, Jerusalem’s destruction. (Incarnation till destruction about 7 decades).

Remember, after the seventy weeks there will be -
to finish the transgression
to put an end to sin
and to atone for iniquity
to bring in everlasting righteousness
to seal both vision and prophet
and to anoint a most holy.

All 6 blessing accomplished by Jesus…in HIS FIRST COMING!!

space and time prevents me to write more at this time i hope i help some what…

in Jesus, the Lamb that was Slain

Cephas 👍
 
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twf:
The book of Daniel is really good for using prophecy to defend the faith…it’s incredible how detailed the prophecies were (which were accurately fulfilled) regarding the Third Beast (identified as Alexander the Great’s Empire)
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Even more accurate in details of the 4th beast Caeser Nero’s empire…)
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**673 ** Since the Ascension Christ’s coming in glory has been imminent, even though “it is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.”. This eschatological coming could be accomplished at any moment, even if both it and the **final trial ** that will precede it are “delayed”.

**The Church’s ultimate trial **

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

**676 ** The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.
 
I find it difficult to believe that whereas the Old Testament provides a complete outline of Salvation History from the Creation until Christ, evidently, in the New Testament, God has told us very little about the completion of Salvation history in the Church Age, except possibly for certain details of the very beginning of it and of the very end of it. But that is what the average Catholic is told or thinks. That is, the typical Catholic belief is that Church history is far too complicated to be able to be summarized prophetically in a major overview.

I vehemently disagree. I believe that both the Old AND New Testament histories can be summarized and structured according to a simple “alternating trial / salvation sequence.” For example, consider the Old Testament. Here, salvation history is manifested in the constant alternation between a major trial and a major salvation:

**
**


  1. ]Creation*
    *]TRIAL: the Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
    *]SALVATION: The Flood
    *]TRIAL: Tower of Babel
    *]SALVATION: Confounding of Languages and Calling of Abraham
    *]TRIAL: Egypt’s Enslavement of the Hebrews
    *]SALVATION: The Exodus
    *]TRIAL: Israel Falls into Sin and Idolatry / Chastisement: Babylonian Exile
    *]SALVATION: Israel Repents and Returns to God and Holy Land
    *]TRIAL: Old Testament Antichrist: Antiochus and Maccabees
    *]SALVATION: **First Coming of Christ

    Further, I argue that Church history is not so chaotic that it is unsummarizable. Basically, the only history of the Church that matters thus far is of the West, for the Gospel has never adequately penetrated the East to any significant extent (until recently). Hence, the alternating pattern continues:
    **

    1. *]SALVATION: First Coming of Christ
      *]TRIAL: Pagans (Rome and Barbarians) Resist and Persecute
      *]SALVATION: Christendom: Western Civ Converts
      *]TRIAL: **Western World Falls Away (1500 AD to Present [roughly])

      Further, the mystics, according to the aforementioned Birch in Trial, Tribulation, and Triumph, indicate what lies ahead: a conditional Chastisement that, whether or not it comes, leads to a re-conversion of the world in a significant Age of Peace. Then, after this extended peace and triumph of the Church, the world grows lax, and hence comes the great apostasy, Antichrist and the Second Coming. Hence, we can complete the outline above for the Church age:

      **

      1. *]SALVATION: First Coming of Christ
        *]TRIAL: Pagans (Rome and Barbarians) Resist and Persecute
        *]SALVATION: Christendom: Western Civ Converts
        *]TRIAL: Western World Falls Away (1500 AD to Present [roughly]) (Conditional Chastisement)
        *]SALVATION: Age of Peace, Western Civ and world returns to the Church
        *]TRIAL: Great Apostasy, Antichrist and Tribulation
        *]SALVATION: **Second Coming / New Creation

        [continued next post…]
 
…continued from previous post]

Hence, I would argue that just as the Old Testament provides us with a complete overview of Salvation History in terms of the major trials and salvations, so likewise do the New Testament apocalypses provide us with full overview of the remaining major trials and salvations. This is a far more interesting way to view the Book of Revelation than what Currie talks about in his books that debunk the Rapture and Fundamentalism. Granted, Fundamentalism is erroneous in its eschatology, but simply replying to the Fundamentalist with proximate interpretations of the NT Apocalypses (i.e., such as the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD or the immediate circumstances of pagan Rome) is not, in my opinion, an adequate response to the Fundamentalist, for we are certainly in an apostasy, and it is therefore a pertinent question to ask if this apostasy is the end of the world or not. And, according to the mystics, it is NOT. Rather, we are in an INTERMEDIATE trial in the Church, where the world that was once Christian has fallen from it, but, somehow, probably through a chastisement (because it doesn’t seem the world is going to repent in time), they will convert back for an extended age.

Moreover, we can see an immediate parallel of our current circumstance, which, as I said is INTERMEDIATE in the Church’s history, with the intermediate stage in the Jews’ history: Israel’s falling away and chastisement (Babylonian Exile) that converts them back. In fact, a closer examination of the outline above reveals a DIRECT typological correlation between the Jewish History of the OLD Covenant and the Church’s history in the NEW Covenant: each has a correlated, THREE-FOLD trial salvation sequence:

  1. *]Founding of People: God Calls Abraham, SINGLE Nation / Christ Calls ALL Nations
    *]Initial Trial: Egypt Enslaves Israel / Rome Persecutes Church
    *]Salvation: The Exodus and Freedom for Israel / Constantine and Freedom for Church
    *]Intermediate Trial: Israel Falls Away / Western World Falls Away
    *]Salvation: Israel Returns to God / Western World Returns to God
    *]Final Trial: Old Testament Antichrist / New Testament Antichrist
    *]Final Salvation: First Coming of Christ / Second Coming of Christ

    Further, I think it would be very appropriate for the intermediate trial in the Old Testament, i.e, of the Jews’ falling away and unfaithfulness to the Covenant, the Chastisement and re-conversion to God, a theme that comprises a significant part of the Old Testament (found in tons of the prophets and historical books), to have a typological fulfillment in the New Covenant. And the mystics seem to confirm this. That is, they foretell, according to Birch’s research, of a godless and faithless age, like Israel’s idolatry, that arises significantly before the end of the world and antichrist, where a conditional chastisement comes and converts the world back to the Church. Also, it becomes clear that Revelation treats of this rather extensively in the climactic sections of Chapters 13-16, with the apostasy of the beast and false prophet and the chastisement of the seven bowls of wrath. But, then, clearly, the Millennium becomes an immediate symbol of the Age of Peace, where Christ triumphs over the sin through the Church and its re-conversion of the world.

    Granted, we needn’t deny that the Book of Revelation might have levels of meaning pertinent to the beginning or end her history or other levels (like the Fall of Jerusalem, pagan Rome’s persecutions, or the Mass, or pure allegory applied to any age), but I think a macro-historical prophetic view is a lot more interesting than some of these other interpretations.

    Scott
 
You know what I think? I think that the Pharisees did nothing but study the Scriptures all day long, and they didn’t know the Messiah when He was standing in front of them reading the scroll Himself.

Don’t concentrate on the tribulation. Concentrate on following Jesus, come thick or thin. Refuse anything that will separate you from Him. Thirst as He does for the conversion of sinners. Whether or not you live to see your interpretation of scriptures come to pass, you will be on good, solid ground.

I knew a priest once who said that a great deal of “end times” speculation was the equivalent of spiritual pornography… something to titilate us and divert us when we should be turning our attention towards that which we are called to do. So do be careful.
 
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