Are we rational or irrational?

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My statement is taken out of context. It was in reply to:

The tradition being that there is no soul!
There is no Western “tradition” that there is no God nor no soul. That is my point. You are arguing against a strawman position and condemning “Western secular culture” for something that is not pervasively true in it.
 
Ok how about this 🙂

God being omnipresent is everywhere, being everywhere at all times He is everything. The individual soul is the spark of God in each human. (to keep in line with Catholicism) We each are a spark of God observing God.(Created in his image) The brain and the neurons are the filtering hardware, so the part (spark) can observe the whole. The appearance of division is a consequence of the hardware. Moments of transcendence are moments where we turn off the hardware and return to being rather than observing. The material makes the spiritual able to be experienced.

I don’t think I stepped outside Catholicism there - stretched perhaps - but not outside the lines. 😃
How can God not be His creation - He’s omnipresent. Present everywhere, how can something be present everywhere if they aren’t that thing. You’d have to have a part that wasn’t God to show where God was, ( i.e. God is “here” but not “there” ) if that was the case He wouldn’t be omnipresent, He’s be finite and not “everywhere” Any question "Is God “here”? The answer is yes. In an Atom “yes”, In a quark “yes” In a person “yes” in a cell “yes” etc etc ad infinitum.
Sad news, Jonfawkes; I’m afraid that despite incomplete analysis about the bedroom situation, you’ve got 'em to rights on their own field.

Catholicism springs from a middle Eastern but older tradition that Jesus, given what He said about being the Son of Man and that the Father in Him did the works, most likely stems from. And some other evidence, generally His statements about who He is, and some Old Testament stuff, tends to support the people who say that His teaching became symbolized as His life and then degraded in meaning over time by lesser individuals than He who had the original realization. Since they were persecuted and largely underground as a faith until the third century, the protective coloration in the form of personalizing the principles of the teaching as Jesus became necessary. He very likely was a profound Teacher of that tradition, those protections which were idealized as Him but meant for all the disciples eventually themselves became the teachings

Now that is irrational from the faith as it has come to be “understood” as an intellectual concept. It is rational from the standpoint of the Saints who said some unkind things about church dogma and yet became its Doctors. It is also rational from he standpoint of the traditional that precedes Christianity from forever and is alive and well yet today. And you don’t need to go into mythology or other defenses, because that’s not what I’m talking about. And it may be rational but really confusing from the standpoint of the church trying to protect people from its own actual but secret teaching. But you hit the nail on the head, Jonfawkes!
 
From his perspective, yes.

In relation to human life, however, no. We are physical before we are spiritual; 1 Co 15:46.

ICXC NIKA
Then what is wrong saying that God started everything to play out for us to find Him?
 
God being omnipresent is everywhere, being everywhere at all times He is everything. The individual soul is the spark of God in each human. (to keep in line with Catholicism) We each are a spark of God observing God.(Created in his image) The brain and the neurons are the filtering hardware, so the part (spark) can observe the whole. The appearance of division is a consequence of the hardware. Moments of transcendence are moments where we turn off the hardware and return to being rather than observing. The material makes the spiritual able to be experienced.
I see it on similar lines. We’re able to form a concept of God, and then a relationship, a connection, because of how we are made. As far as we know we’re the only creature with the ability to feel and reason this out, to look in a mirror and see our divinity, whichever way we happen to acknowledge it and however poor we may be at seeing.

And take heart :), in thinking this we may not be alone:

*The clay became man at the moment in which a being for the first time was capable of forming, however dimly, the thought of “God.” The first Thou that – however stammeringly – was said by human lips to God marks the moment in which the spirit arose in the world. Here the Rubicon of anthropogenesis was crossed. For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man . . . herein . . . lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel. The theory of evolution does not invalidate the faith, nor does it corroborate it. But it does challenge the faith to understand itself more profoundly and thus to help man to understand himself and to become increasingly what he is: the being who is supposed to say Thou to God in eternity. - Joseph Ratzinger, Creation and Evolution: A Conference With Pope Benedict XVI in Castel Gandolfo

Thus the image of God means, first of all, that human beings cannot be closed in on themselves. Human beings who attempt this betray themselves. To be the image of God implies relationality. It is the dynamic that sets the human being in motion toward the totally Other. Hence it means the capacity for relationship; it is the human capacity for God. Human beings are, as a consequence, most profoundly human when they step out of themselves and become capable of addressing God on familiar terms. Indeed, to the question as to what distinguishes the human being from an animal, as to what is specifically different about human beings, the answer has to be that they are the beings that God made capable of thinking and praying. They are most profoundly themselves when they discover their relation to their Creator. Therefore the image of God also means that human persons are beings of word and of love, beings moving toward Another, oriented to giving themselves to the Other and only truly receiving themselves back in real self-giving. - Joseph Ratzinger, “In the Beginning…”*
 
Thanks Inocente. I do appreciate you positng that material. It immediately reminded me of the story of the Zen monk who was presented the Four Gospels by a missionary. I have a more acceptable-to-Christians conclusion than did the monk, but what he said upon reading them was “This man is almost enlightened!” I feel the same way about the substance of those quotes. Why?

A) As are too many things related to Spirit, the imagery here is still heavily veiled by what experienced mystics know to be symbolism, this being at least a publicly common factor in the Church’s teaching, whatever it might teach in its inner circles as I suspect.

B) It therefor is missing a relational piece because while appearing to talk about an elevated relational state, as described that state is still in the relative realm of Man’s actual ability. This piece, or Piece is kind of danced around but not directly addressed in those statements.

C) It declines to acknowledge, I believe through doctrinal ignorance or omission, the accomplishment of many of the Church’s great Saints and/or Doctors in this exact area.

Thanks again. That explained a lot for me; I appreciate it.
 
No, I’m not omnipresent. I’m not everywhere in the bedroom. I am finite with limited boundaries.

How can God not be His creation - He’s omnipresent. Present everywhere, how can something be present everywhere if they aren’t that thing. You’d have to have a part that wasn’t God to show where God was, ( i.e. God is “here” but not “there” ) if that was the case He wouldn’t be omnipresent, He’s be finite and not “everywhere” Any question "Is God “here”? The answer is yes. In an Atom “yes”, In a quark “yes” In a person “yes” in a cell “yes” etc etc ad infinitum.
God is also immutable.

Anything that changes (all material things that we know of) cannot be part of an unchanging being.

What your are espousing is the heresy of pantheism.
 
Certain perceptual models would disagree with jonfawkes claim as to his location on grounds not admitted, as far as I know, by the Church. That doesn’t make those grounds unworthy of consideration, given that Christianity in its superficial aspects stems from a Bronze/Iron age paradigm.

Also, he might be more accurate if he substituted “as” for “in,” making his observations conform more to non dualism than to pantheism. Non dualism, though inherent in the Church’s teachings, is yet denied by it in its public aspect. It just doesn’t have the connecting bits to explicate it, as does another ancient paradigm, as well as some of its own Saints.
 
Certain perceptual models would disagree with jonfawkes claim as to his location on grounds not admitted, as far as I know, by the Church. That doesn’t make those grounds unworthy of consideration, given that Christianity in its superficial aspects stems from a Bronze/Iron age paradigm.

Also, he might be more accurate if he substituted “as” for “in,” making his observations conform more to non dualism than to pantheism. Non dualism, though inherent in the Church’s teachings, is yet denied by it in its public aspect. It just doesn’t have the connecting bits to explicate it, as does another ancient paradigm, as well as some of its own Saints.
How does the Bronze/Iron age paradigm, whatever that is, have anything to with this topic? Christianity stems from the person of Jesus of Nazareth. As the Incarnation of God there is nothing superficial about Him or His teachings that are the foundation of Christianity. Jesus’ presence is known rationally, His teaching are known rationally.
 
God is also immutable.

Anything that changes (all material things that we know of) cannot be part of an unchanging being.

What your are espousing is the heresy of pantheism.
No, if everything is God, then everything is God regardless of appearance. An apple seed, an apple tree,a ripe apple. a rotten apple are all God, there is no change, all still God.
 
How does the Bronze/Iron age paradigm, whatever that is, have anything to with this topic? Christianity stems from the person of Jesus of Nazareth. As the Incarnation of God there is nothing superficial about Him or His teachings that are the foundation of Christianity. Jesus’ presence is known rationally, His teaching are known rationally.
What are the names for the time period and level of cultures in which Judaism and Christianity originated? As for the rest, I agree, David, but that’s not all there is to it. Even Catholic Biblical scholars would agree, as far as I can tell. As for this topic, it is stated in terms that reflect the problem: it is an either/or question, a way in which many religious people approach things, and even in simple terms we can see that doesn’t work that way. But it works as a reason to converse precisely because of its inadequacy as a useful question.
 
^^ Is this guy really derailing this thread by bringing about the origins of Christianity?
 
No, if everything is God, then everything is God regardless of appearance. An apple seed, an apple tree,a ripe apple. a rotten apple are all God, there is no change, all still God.
It is true that there is only a subtle difference between pantheism and the Christian understanding of God; but in understanding the rational consequences of God gained by a proper understanding of Gods attributes - and also the act of reality itself - we are provided with a big difference non-the-less.

I sympathise with those who fall in to the trap of Pantheism, and this is because it is almost true insomuch as it admits of only one true existence; that is to say there is only one thing that truly exists in and of itself because of its own nature. But that doesn’t necessitate that a thing cannot be its own distinct thing or nature and yet have no being of its own generation; and this would only mean that in order for it to be real, a created thing must participate in the “act” of existence, that is to say, it’s continuous being is only real because something is sustaining it or bringing it “in” to reality, but that which is only potentially real is not itself intrinsically “existence” or “reality”. In this context none of us really exist, and that is only to say that our distinct natures are not intrinsic to what the act of reality is, otherwise it would not have a beginning in anyway shape or form and thus neither would it change; since to change is to take on the potentiality of more existence. I cannot say that I exist merely because I am human, but rather I exist because something beyond my power is making me exist.

A thing that begins to exist, is only potentially real. That means at one point it never existed and thus it is not intrinsic to what reality is; it is not reality. If reality is a nature in and of itself (which we would have to admit unless one is persuaded by the ridiculous and meaningless notion that out of nothing comes something), then there can never be a time or reality where it does not exist. It is what ever it is in the instant of its being, and it is absolute. In fact we cannot speak of it in the context of time at all because there is no potentiality or potential parts in its being, since its being simply is “reality” and not something it “becomes”. Its very nature would transcend all time and thus also the essences of all manner of things or distinctions that change, proceeding or preceding each-other in potentiality. Existence as an intrinsic nature would have no beginning or end; it would be a timeless act. Thus the universe is not God. God permeates all things and is in all things but at the same God is absolutely distinct from them. We come “in to” Existence; we come in to God. God is already a complete nature to which we are presented; we are not an intrinsic of God of what God is. Existence does not begin to exist. Only “essences” begin to exist. However, change is relative according to the perspective from which you perceive being, and thus even from a strict Gods I view of ontology, nothing at all is changing; because Gods perspective is eternal and thus transcendent of all change. Therefore all the change that has ever happened or will ever happen is timelessly present to God and is a timeless expression of God, and in so far as that is the case, from Gods point of view, the universe has existed for all eternity even though from our point of view it had a beginning and is changing.

To be fair to pantheists, if we did not experience potentiality/change and distinction, we would not be able to tell the difference between the universe and God.
 
I don’t think I’m espousing pantheism in it’s classic sense.

It’s not a either/or proposition. God the infinite, The Universe ( and all that is in it) is the finite experience of the infinite, It is God in time.
 
Mom2, thou protesteth 2 much and too weakly, as emphasized by your bolds.
 
There is no Western “tradition” that there is no God nor no soul. That is my point. You are arguing against a strawman position and condemning “Western secular culture” for something that is not pervasively true in it.
Then how do you explain this?

"One tradition in sola scriptura is to actually have the audacity to accept what Paul says. He admits it’s a mystery, he doesn’t really know, but he says “the dead will be raised imperishable” and we will join them in this new state when the trumpet sounds.

The implication is that when we die we cease to exist until the trumpet sounds and we are rescued from the moment before we died. There can be no ghosts of the dead, and children brought up in this tradition do not fear ghosts, to them ghosts are pure superstition. These kids must also, of course, accept the hard fact that the dead aren’t around to hear them unless they happen to be rescued before the trumpet sounds. Perhaps praying for the dead may help their rescue, don’t know. But there can be** no ghosts at all under any circumstances whatsoever**, and so** no ghosts in machines for the living.
**
This tradition, started by Paul, has nothing to do with modern science or materialism, it just happens to be one that fits rather neatly with a modern explanation of mind."

In other words he is claiming that Paul denied the existence of the soul. Yet before he became a Christian Paul was an orthodox Jew who believed in praying for the souls of the dead. It is absurd to think his conversion led him to reject the soul.

BTW The “modern” explanation of mind that it is merely the activity of the brain. What is that but materialism?
 
[BIBLEDRB]Ecclesiastes 3:19-21[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Job 14:10[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Ecclesiastes 9:5[/BIBLEDRB]
 
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
 
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