Are we rational or irrational?

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Maybe it’s your phrasing, but I’d have real problems with any attempted definition of God - to me God is so far beyond understanding that the dictionary definition should read:

God (noun) - The creator of all. Beyond that we’re stumped. 🙂
Being the creator of all that is finite necessitates the existence of certain traits or attributes that intrinsically transcends that which is by nature “finite”. The creator is not essentially the created. In-order for God to be meaningful and rational as either a proposition or a conclusion, we must say that God has existence (is not something other than existence), and we must say that God is absolute existence by nature of Gods being; otherwise God would be finite, and thus not God. If you do not recognise this, then you are not talking about anything meaningful or rational, and thus there is no rational obligation for a reasonable person to accept what you believe.** I do not believe in your God**.
 
Maybe it’s your phrasing, but I’d have real problems with any attempted definition of God - to me God is so far beyond understanding that the dictionary definition should read:

God (noun) - The creator of all. Beyond that we’re stumped. 🙂
If knowledge of God is beyond rational definition and finite knowledge, then I fail to see how you can define God as the creator of all, since this is itself a definition. If in your stubbornness and pride you refuse to accept that God has well defined attributes, then I fail to see how your concept of God is any different from absolutely nothing.

If we cannot know something of God (if we cannot have negative knowledge), then it follows necessarily that not only do we have no knowledge of God, it is impossible to have any meaningful or rational knowledge of God, because as soon as it makes any sense it becomes less than God; it becomes finite. This means that God cannot reveal himself to us. Therefore it makes no sense that any of us even have a meaningful concept of God let alone revelation.
 
The creator is not essentially the created. In-order for God to be meaningful and rational as either a proposition or a conclusion, we must say that God has existence (is not something other than existence), and we must say that God is absolute existence by nature of Gods being; otherwise God would be finite, and thus not God. If you do not recognise this, then you are not talking about anything meaningful or rational, and thus there is no rational obligation for a reasonable person to accept what you believe.
Thought I said that with “God (noun) - The creator of all.”
I do not believe in your God.
If knowledge of God is beyond rational definition and finite knowledge, then I fail to see how you can define God as the creator of all, since this is itself a definition. If in your stubbornness and pride you refuse to accept that God has well defined attributes, then I fail to see how your concept of God is any different from absolutely nothing.
By “Beyond that we’re stumped” I mean (1 Cor 1:18-31 NIV):

*For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” [Isaiah 29:14]

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” [Jer. 9:24]
*
If we cannot know something of God (if we cannot have negative knowledge), then it follows necessarily that not only do we have no knowledge of God, it is impossible to have any meaningful or rational knowledge of God, because as soon as it makes any sense it becomes less than God; it becomes finite. This means that God cannot reveal himself to us. Therefore it makes no sense that any of us even have a meaningful concept of God let alone revelation.
So from Paul I’m saying that the only meaningful knowledge of God is experiential not analytical. We become blinded once we rationalize our amazement that He could love us, once He no longer confounds us. Do you agree, or is this just a Baptist thing? 🙂
 
If knowledge of God is beyond rational definition and finite knowledge, then I fail to see how you can define God as the creator of all, since this is itself a definition. If in your stubbornness and pride you refuse to accept that God has well defined attributes, then I fail to see how your concept of God is any different from absolutely nothing.

If we cannot know something of God (if we cannot have negative knowledge), then it follows necessarily that not only do we have no knowledge of God, it is impossible to have any meaningful or rational knowledge of God, because as soon as it makes any sense it becomes less than God; it becomes finite. This means that God cannot reveal himself to us. Therefore it makes no sense that any of us even have a meaningful concept of God let alone revelation.
Inocente is referring, I think, to that aspect of religion that parallels scientism, in other words substituting intellectual ideas for actual relationship and dogma for spirituality. Saying that “God is the Creator” is a symbol that has a dubious referent. In other words it is self referent to other thoughts about what constitutes Creation, all of them necessarily limited and not experientially referent to what they are “meant” to symbolize. So while “computer” is an actual reference for you, what it means in its completeness is not. Similarly, one can say that though the world is taken as evidence for God, it is an incomplete reference. The implications are staggering.

And you are right. God cannot be known as a sense object or an object of reason, as God is not thought. So whatever you think, it is a thought “about.” The map is not the territory. And this is why the mysics, say Aquinas and St Teresa of Avila refer to intellections as “straw.”

And in fact, the most useful symbolization of God is as an absolute Nothing that is yet ALL. It is easy to use a materialistic form of thought in this regard as we are all swimming in the industrial ontology of these times which has gutted the insides of things. It has happened with religion as well. The entirety of the interior word called “I” and “we” has become the world of “it” and “its” in the public eye. And this is why there is such a contention on here between the formalist faithers who have a legalistic faith based on definitions, and those who have some mystical experience and who have gone into what constitutes an actual spirituality.

And God can reveal much, but not through the scaffolding of scripture past a certain point. Scriptures only mean there is something to look for inside and may or may not provide useful signposts. They are themselves not God and yet bear interpretation. But the meaning of that is to be found inside, not in thought constructs in the “legalities” of religion. Why did St. Thomas want to burn his work? Why did someone on another thread realize “I know nothing!”? Was he suddenly devoid of “facts?” No. He just crossed a threshold of maturity in awareness of where spirituality actually lives.

So now you might see why Jesus had some contentions with the Pharisees. God is a Living Experience, not a mind structure of words handed down from the Bronze Age or modified two thousand years ago. All that may be useful, but it is not the experience itself. And that is at least my take on what Inocente might be saying. And as a tag, one of the most respected and time honored ways of practical meditation is exactly a negation process about what God is not, as we can’t in our human way know what god IS. But that negation process is capable of yielding golden fruit.
 
The ocean is a finite changing entity incomparable to God, thus this analogy is fallacious. God is not a potential being that gains in being potentially, thus again this is fallacious. You are not talking about God.

There is no mystery in what I am saying. Your failure to agree with me is due only to your failure to reason correctly in regards to Gods attributes. You do not understand the intrinsic difference between finity and infinity, for if you did you would understand that the difference doesn’t lie in which perspective you view reality, but rather it lies in the distinct and intrinsic “nature” of what infinity is and what a finite being is.
This is bizarre to me, coming from a Christian.

Jesus is true God and true man - it’s not an either or proposition. God can be in time and out side of time. Not pantheism - just Christianity. 🙂 God is omnipresent.
 
This is bizarre to me, coming from a Christian.

Jesus is true God and true man - it’s not an either or proposition. God can be in time and out side of time. Not pantheism - just Christianity. 🙂 God is omnipresent.
Jesus as a physical being “changed”, this is to say that his fully human body changed, but Jesus Christ as “God” did not. God is also immutable as well as omnipresent.
 
Exactly!!! 😃 It’s not either/or - it’s both.
God is not physical. Jesus Christ’s “body” was physical, but that doesn’t make physical reality God. Otherwise there is no sense in saying that Jesus was both fully divine and fully human if there is no intrinsic difference or distinction.

You are some kind of pantheist.
 
God is not physical. Jesus Christ’s “body” was physical, but that doesn’t make physical reality God. Otherwise there is no sense in saying that Jesus was both fully divine and fully human if there is no intrinsic difference or distinction.

You are some kind of pantheist.
You make it sound like God was wearing a “man suit”. 😛

Jesus is God incarnate - you can’t separate the God from the man. Both not either / or.
 
You make it sound like God was wearing a “man suit”. 😛

Jesus is God incarnate - you can’t separate the God from the man. Both not either / or.
Jesus is the word of God, the eternal logos made flesh. But In-order for the incarnation to make sense, it has to distinguish between that which is physical and that which is not. Everything you are is not physical, but rather it is a union between the physical and non physical. There is an intrinsic distinction. Jesus is both man and God; that is to say Jesus had a completely human side, and part of that human side is physical. But the physical body by itself is a creation of God, and thus is not an intrinsic part of what God is. It began to exist; and God cannot begin to exist. Jesus would not cease being the “logos” if he had not been born human with physical traits. You cannot say that the logos died on the cross, because God cannot die. However; Jesus’ “physical body” died on the cross, and that is not a problem because physical reality by itself is not what intrinsically constitutes the word of God. Physical reality in and of itself is not God; but rather its essence participates in the ultimate reality that is God.
 
Jesus is the word of God, the eternal logos made flesh. But In-order for the incarnation to make sense, it has to distinguish between that which is physical and that which is not. Everything you are is not physical, but rather it is a union between the physical and non physical. There is an intrinsic distinction. Jesus is both man and God; that is to say Jesus had a completely human side, and part of that human side is physical. But the physical body by itself is a creation of God, and thus is not an intrinsic part of what God is. It began to exist; and God cannot begin to exist. Jesus would not cease being the “logos” if he had not been born human with physical traits. You cannot say that the logos died on the cross, because God cannot die. However; Jesus’ “physical body” died on the cross, and that is not a problem because physical reality by itself is not what intrinsically constitutes the word of God. Physical reality in and of itself is not God; but rather its essence participates in the ultimate reality that is God.
You are saying that there are parts of God that aren’t God 🤷 I don’t think God can be divided. He’s unmutable. He’s always God and He’s everywhere, inside and outside time.
 
Correcto, shirley you don’t believe in ghosts? A lot of superstitions are blown out the water with no possibility of the dead sticking around on earth in spirit form. I ain’t afraid of no ghosts ‘cause there ain’t no ghosts.

Having googled this homework I found only negative references to a belief in ghosts in the Bible. Lev warns against mediums and spiritualists to the point of stoning them. In Luke 24:36-43 and Matt 14:25-27 Christ refers to the disciples’ superstition but says no, he definitely isn’t a ghost.

The RCC seems to be a little more open than me but only a little:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68370
ehow.com/about_4577988_roman-catholic-church-say-ghosts.html
What about souls?
 
Correcto, shirley you don’t believe in ghosts? A lot of superstitions are blown out the water with no possibility of the dead sticking around on earth in spirit form. I ain’t afraid of no ghosts ‘cause there ain’t no ghosts.

Having googled this homework I found only negative references to a belief in ghosts in the Bible. Lev warns against mediums and spiritualists to the point of stoning them.
That does not prove they don’t exist, but only that we as live human beings ae not to traffic in them.

A woman manages to channel the prophet Samuel during the kingship of Saul, something that could not happen if Samuel had ceased being.
In Luke 24:36-43 and Matt 14:25-27 Christ refers to the disciples’ superstition but says no, he definitely isn’t a ghost.
But HE does NOT say they don’t exist, only that HE isn’t one, as HE has solid hands and feet, which a “ghost” would not have. If “ghosts” did not exist, why talk about hands and feet? Simply say “I am not a ghost, such do not exist”???

His teaching in Luke 16:19-31 shows that to HIS knowledge (!!!) deceased human beings do NOT cease being.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.
 
Gods permeates all things but Gods intrinsic nature does not change; does not have potentiality in his being.
How does what I said I contradict this? God is unchanging, the change is illusory, He’s always God. Inside time or outside it - still God, unchanged.
 
How does what I said I contradict this? God is unchanging, the change is illusory, He’s always God. Inside time or outside it - still God, unchanged.
Change is not illusory. Intrinsically speaking, God is not identical in nature to that which changes.
 
Change is not illusory. Intrinsically speaking, God is not identical in nature to that which changes.
If you don’t think that God can occupy time then Jesus as God incarnate falls apart.

God doesn’t change. Change is illusory. I think we’ve come to an impasse 😛
 
If you don’t think that God can occupy time then Jesus as God incarnate falls apart.

God doesn’t change. Change is illusory. I think we’ve come to an impasse 😛
Change is not illusory. And time is the index of entropic change.

While GOD Himself does not “occupy” time, HE can occupy a being that is bound by time, namely, our LORD’s HUMAN BODY.

Our Lord’s body, just like every"body", was timebound before HIS death, which caused HIM to be able to die. Time is the measure of entropy. Entropy causes us to die.

GOD Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
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