Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?

[JonNC]

I absolutely agree. This seems to be a contention of many Catholics and I that is unfortunate. A lack of true faith in Christ could very well be why so many of them doubt their own salvation in Christ. If we all put our attention in God’s word instead of into these schemes of man and such, these doubts and fears would not overtake our spiritual lives.

SIA,
I’m not sure that I agree with the contention that Catholics doubt their own salvation. I certainly don’t doubt their salvation. And I’m not willing to judge whether or not they have a true faith. My point to Jimmy is that we disagree about this issue (and many others) far less than he seems to think. Part of it, I think is a misconception on the part of Catholics of what most non-catholics believe about faith and works (along with that goes the truth that many non-catholics have misconceptions about what Catholics believe). All the scripture he quotes about faith and works are absolutely valid, and point to the undeniable importance of works. Faith without works IS dead. How can I claim to have faith if I don’t allow His good works and Grace to flow through me?
Paul said we are justified by grace through faith. From that Grace we respond with good works.

I contend that it is NOT good works to condemn each other over soon-to-be 500 year old disagreements and polemics. Rather, good works consist of lovingly listening to each other and the Holy Spirit, and finding the words, through His divine intervention, that express the true faith in a way that reunifies His church.
Can that be done? In Him it can.

 

[c659smith]

You are wrong sir, the Bible does say that we are saved by faith alone. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. He never included “works” in those words. In fact the Counsil of Trent completely refutes Romans 4. Glad I left the RCC when I did.

Where are the words “faith alone” in the bible?

I do not believe you will find these two words together “faith alone”

So are you saying that if I have faith in Christ but refuse to do works I will be saved?

Please show me where the words “faith alone” are adjacent to each other.

I believe you are reading Paul as a verse and not as a book in the bible to include his letters.

Faith and works and true faith not faith alone requires one to do works. For you cannot follow Christ without doing these works.

There are people out there that believe they can do whatever evil they want in this life because they have faith and yet be saved.

There are people out there believe they can ignore the hungry, clothed the poor , etc… and that they have faith so they will be saved.

Christ’s ministry was filled with good works and one reason He did this was to instruct the Apostles on His ministry.

We are in the Easter season and one accounting in the bible was Jesus washing the feet of the Apostles.

Peter said Lord you will not wash my feet and Jesus reply was if I do not wash your feet than you cannot follow Me.

This was an act of works not faith for if you do not allow yourself to be helped or submit yourself to someone else’s caring than you cannot follow Me. In today’s world this is especially difficult becuase of pride. How hard it is for us to accept gifts or anothers love when we do not need it. To give the giver worth and to remove our pride and accept it.

The Apostles were being taught and told to do this to eachother and unto others. Humility through receiving and giving.(works)

When you read the bible use your heart not rationalization.

You are correct though we are never good enough as we are sinners but it is our faith that causes works and following as best we can what Christ has taught that helps us through when our faith is at it’s lowest.

When you knock on the door of heaven do not let Jesus say I do not know you go away. For when I was hungry you___________, for when I was naked you__________, etc…

You fill in the blanks

Paul stated himself the importance of works and remember Paul is a part of the Bible and to be read as a whole with Matthew, John, Peter, etc… for it is in reading the whole bible that we begin to get the truth that Pilate ask “what is truth”.

Glad I remain in the RCC

 

[JonNC]

Faith and works and true faith not faith alone requires one to do works. For you cannot follow Christ without doing these works.

There are people out there that believe they can do whatever evil they want in this life because they have faith and yet be saved.

There are people out there believe they can ignore the hungry, clothed the poor , etc… and that they have faith so they will be saved.

We are in the Easter season and one accounting in the bible was Jesus washing the feet of the Apostles.

Faith alone DOES require us to act on our justification. Good works simply do not merit us salvation. Grace through faith does.
And we are required by that Grace to allow Christ’s good works be performed through us.
People who believe that they have no responsibility to help the least of God’s children are simply wrong. That is NOT faith alone.

In the final analysis, what is truly different about what we are saying?

BTW, we are in the Lenten season.

 

[c659smith]

Faith alone DOES require us to act on our justification. Good works simply do not merit us salvation. Grace through faith does.
And we are required by that Grace to allow Christ’s good works be performed through us.
People who believe that they have no responsibility to help the least of God’s children are simply wrong. That is NOT faith alone.

In the final analysis, what is truly different about what we are saying?

BTW, we are in the Lenten season.

No Catholic will state we are saved by faith alone and nor will a Catholic say we are saved by works alone.

What is being said is that faith without works is empty. Not true faith.

What is being said that works without faith is fruitless if not done in the name of Jesus. For works without being done in the name of God is not from God and may as well been done by an Atheist.

I do not believe we are saying anything different.

Grace through faith requires us to work our faith asking for that Grace needed for we cannot be a fully abled body and become a lump on a log. It is a lot of hard work being a Christian. A concious effort (work), love, caring, profess the faith, pray for onself and eachother, and smile even when you do not feel like it.

 

[NDfan]

I think to easily sum this conversation up we can all agree on the following. Is it faith alone or faith+good works?

The answer is Faith alone. We only have faith because of GOD’s grace and could never earn it by good works since by definition grace is umerited and undeserved. So works will never get it for us.

So then if it’s Faith alone we have to define what Faith is. And the bottom line is good works are a part of Faith. They can’t be separated plain and simple. If someone claims to have true Faith but then commits murder then I have a real issue with their Faith. On the flip side someone who truly has Faith will be producing good works. You can’t help it.

Some people are more passive with their good works and others are are more outward. For some good works may be someone who is a loving trusting husband or wife that cares deeply for their families and lives their life according to GOD’s laws. While others become more active with serving in their communities and pursuing charitable works.

We can’t start to place parameters around how much is enough or asking how much is needed because the answer is it could never be enough. We all agree no matter how much we do it will never get us to GOD because in the end we are still sinners and sinners can’t be with GOD. That’s why we have Faith.

So it’s invalid to state that scripture supports the Roman Catholic position because it doesn’t. It supports the position of anyone who understands what the word Faith truly means. Roman Catholics don’t understand when Protestants say Faith alone, and Protestants don’t understand when Roman Catholics say Faith plus works. In the end we’re saying the same thing we just don’t realize our terminology is different. You say tom-a-to I say
to-mah-to. But in the end it’s still a tomato.

PEACE

 

[Fidelis]

There is a lot of misunderstanding out there of what Catholics believe about this subject. I think there are several reasons for this. For one thing, the Church’s teaching on this often isn’t taught clearly even to Catholics. For whatever reason, it isn’t a subject that is emphasized from Catholic pulpits as much as it is in Protestant churches—it’s pretty much taken for granted by Catholic teachers that the average Catholic doesn’t need to know the subject that much in depth.

As a Catholic involved in apologetics and teaching Adult Religious Education, I can see the fruits of this mistaken attitude in that many Catholics cannot articulate the Church’s teaching on salvation. Many, in fact, end up leaving the Church convinced that the Church teaches a form of crass works-righteousness or a semi-Pelagianism. This isn’t helped by the fact that some of the non-Catholic “churches” they end up in have an equally distorted view of what Catholics believe and thus their erroneous misconceptions are reinforced. I was listening to a local Christian radio show recently in which a man was giving his testimony, saying he used to be a Catholic “but was now a Christian” and was happy he now didn’t have to worry about being “good enough” and “didn’t have to work his way to heaven.” He mentioned a lot of other things he said the Church taught that clearly pointed to the fact he was, if nothing else, a victim of poor catechesis.

On another level, I think it is possible to show that Catholics and Protestants don’t differ on this topic as much as people think they do. In the centuries since the Reformation, however, the terminology and teaching emphasis has become so particular to each group, that, essentially, we are talking about the same thing but in different words! This is bound to be confusing in any conversation between Catholics and Protestants on this (or any other) subject, but in recent years there have been attempts by various persons and groups to try to iron out the language barriers, without smoothing over or ignoring real differences. I have two real good book recommendations: The first is by a Catholic, Jimmy Akin, and it is called The Salvation Controversy. The other is by an Evangelical Protestant named Mark Noll and is called **Is The Reformation Over? **Both of these books make the same point: that Catholics and Protestants have more in common than they think they do.

I think it’s also possible to make the argument that the original Reformers were not so much reacting against Church teaching on salvation, as they were against the poor catechesis and abuses of their particular time and place. If you look at what the Church really taught about salvation at that time (and not just the abuses) it was essentially what the Church has always taught before then, and what it teaches now. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (John 16:16; John 3:36; 6:40 et al). “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” (Dei Filius 3:ds 3012; cf. Mt 10:22; 24:13 and Heb 11:6; Council of Trent: DS 1532.)

Basically, the Church’s teaching is this: **We are saved by grace alone, through faith. **The Catholic understanding of faith includes both placing our trust in Christ AND obeying him—what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5 and 16:26). The Church teaches that everything having to do with our salvation is God’s grace. Even our original conversion is God’s initiative and an entirely unmerited gift of his grace—we cannot even take the first step without him. It is indeed 100% God’s work, but, respecting our free will, he allows us to cooperate in our own salvation through faith and charity.

I’ll speak about it more in depth later, but basically the place of works as they relate to our salvation is as (1) a response to God’s grace (obedience) and (2) as a means to grow in holiness (sanctification). God sends us the grace (and the opportunity) to perform a good work. By being responsive to God’s grace, we please him because of our obedience, and we grow in holiness. The holier we become, the less likely we are to fall into sin. Failure to respond to God’s grace is disobedience and a failure to grow in holiness. If we continually refuse to respond to God’s graces, we run the risk of falling into serious sin. And, as you know, the Church teaches that if one dies in serious, unrepented sin, he or she cannot be admitted to heaven. It is important to remember that good works that are not done in faith and by God’s grace—on human power— do not avail anything. You do not get into heaven just by “being good.”

Continued…

 

[Fidelis]

This is basically the place that works has in salvation: obedience and sanctification. The Church does not teach that salvation is attained by being “good enough” to get into heaven; it isn’t a “scale” that if you do more good works than bad you get in; we cannot put God in our debt by what we do. Here’s just one excerpt from the Catechism:

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

For a more in depth treatment of how God’s grace works in our lives to save us, I’d highly recommend seeing the sections in the Catechism that addresses this subject (Sections 142—165; 1987—2029). Here is an article from Catholic Answers that may also be helpful:

Grace: What It Is and What It Does
catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

An Extremely Short Explanation of How Are We Saved: It’s All Grace

First of all, we need to clarify what our Savior Jesus Christ did and did not come to earth to accomplish.
–>Christ did NOT die on the Cross in our place for our individual sins, past, present and future
(NO “Substitutionary Atonement”). This is a Protestant error.

1. Jesus did die for us, but it does not become a substitute for our death (physical death). Even with faith we must still undergo physical death.
2. Regarding the wrath deserved for our sins: Our sins deserve eternal condemnation in hell (spiritual death). Jesus does not substitute for us in the sense that He takes that punishment for us. He is not undergoing eternal condemnation in hell for our sins.
   –>Christ DID die on the Cross to take away the sin (in general) of the world (John 1:29). This is what we call “the Redemption.” Thus, thanks to Christ, all men everywhere are redeemed and are able to come to the saving knowledge of God (1 Timothy 2:4).
   · What Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary also made possible is for each of us who are redeemed to (1) respond to God’s initiative (grace), (2) place our faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and his promises, and (3) be baptized. God can make exceptions to this (because he himself is not bound by his own requirements and can save anyone anyway he wants to), but normally speaking, all three are necessary for us to be saved. The role each plays is as follows:

1. Baptism
   · Initial justification where our sins are washed away. As a Sacrament, baptism is an efficacious sign that really accomplishes what it signifies. By water and the Holy Spirit, we are “born again” to new life (John 3:5); sanctified and made holy and fit for heaven (1 Corinthians 6:11). This is called sanctifying grace. If we were to die in this state, we would go to heaven.
2. Sanctification
   · After baptism, we want to remain in sanctifying grace since if we die in any other state we will not go to heaven. We do this by relying on “prompting” graces (called actual graces) from God to do good (virtue) and avoid evil (sin). If we respond to God’s grace, we will remain in sanctifying grace. This is the primary sense in which we are “saved by our works”—it is entirely due to the grace of God with our cooperation. The more graces we respond to, the more we grow in holiness (sanctification), and the surer we are headed for heaven. In this, also, we are, by cooperating with God’s grace, being obedient to the commandments of Our Lord.
   ·If we fail to respond to God’s grace, especially if we fall into habitual venial sin, we run the risk of eventually falling into mortal sin. If we do, sanctifying grace dies in us and we are no longer “in a state of grace”—if we die in that state we cannot go to heaven.
   ·Even if we have fallen in that state, God lovingly sends us graces to urge us to repent and to confess our sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. We are then restored to sanctifying grace. This is how our justification can be seen as ongoing.
3. Final Perseverance
   · Finally, if through the obedience of faith we remain faithful to God and respond to the graces he has given us through our lives to do good, avoid evil (and repent and confess our sins if we don’t), we will die in the state of sanctifying grace and be with God forever in heaven. This is the theological virtue of hope where—if we place no impediments of our own making by our bad free will choices—we have confidence that our loving God can and will be true to his great and precious promises to us.

Thus, (1) We have been saved by grace (through faith and baptism), (2) we are being saved (through responding to God’s continual graces); (3) and we will be saved (by final perseverance). No “working our way to heaven” here—it’s all grace.

Continued…

 

[Fidelis]

Continued from above…

Aren’t We Saved By “Faith Alone”?

Protestants often point out the following:

For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. --John 3:16 (KJV)

What do Catholics say to that? We say: “Amen!” like we say to everything in the Bible. But what does Jesus mean here by “believe”? Go down further in this chapter, and you will find out:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him. --John 3:36 (KJV)

Disobeying God is not following his commandments. Both faith AND works (by God’s grace, not our own power) are necessary.

*“Yeah, but what about…" *

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. --Ephesians 2:8,9 (KJV)

Keep in mind that St. Paul is speaking here, not about good works in the sense of fulfilling the Ten Commandments and avoiding evil, but about the works of the (Levitical) Law. Please read the entire chapter in context and you’ll see that it concerns St. Paul’s ongoing disputes with the “Judaizers” or “circumcision party” (see Acts 15). Same for the other famous “faith alone” proof-text, Romans 3:28.

Consider this: If good works sprang up “naturally” out of faith, as some Protestants like to claim, almost the entire New Testament (which, recall, was addressed to believers) would be almost superfluous, since it constantly commands believers to do certain good actions and avoid certain evil ones.

It bears repeating: Works are not the direct cause of our salvation; we aren’t saved by the works themselves, even those done as a response to and under the power of God’s grace.

But we ARE saved by works in the sense that if we don’t do the good works that God has set before us to do, or do evil works (mortal sins) in defiance of God’s clear prescription, this is disobedience and, as Jesus said in the passage above, the disobedient cannot be saved. Also:

[God] will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Romans 2:6-8)
Another, secondary, way doing good works saves you is that when you occupy yourself with walking in God’s ways, you leave less room to fall into sins. When you head off even venial sin, it is harder for it to become habitual and lead you into serious sin:

No one experiencing temptation should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one. Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. (James 1:13-15)Occupy your minds with good thoughts, or the enemy will fill them with bad ones. Unoccupied, they cannot be. -St. Thomas More

Hope that helps.

 

[JonNC]

No Catholic will state we are saved by faith alone and nor will a Catholic say we are saved by works alone.

What is being said is that faith without works is empty. Not true faith.

What is being said that works without faith is fruitless if not done in the name of Jesus. For works without being done in the name of God is not from God and may as well been done by an Atheist.

I do not believe we are saying anything different.

Grace through faith requires us to work our faith asking for that Grace needed for we cannot be a fully abled body and become a lump on a log. It is a lot of hard work being a Christian. A concious effort (work), love, caring, profess the faith, pray for onself and eachother, and smile even when you do not feel like it.

No Catholic will say faith alone. And no non-catholic will say faith and works. But we can all say Grace through faith. Then everything you say above is just fine. It is hard work being a Christian, but knowing that His Grace makes our salvation possible, we can all produce the works He asks of us.

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

You are wrong sir, the Bible does say that we are saved by faith alone. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. He never included “works” in those words. In fact the Counsil of Trent completely refutes Romans 4. Glad I left the RCC when I did.

Hello, SIA,

It does… the Bible say’s that we are saved by “faith alone”… please show me where it “says” that… Please include source information with your opinions, like Bible verses for example and post them here that would be helpful.

I like you but you are incorrect in asserting that we are “saved by faith alone”. You might want to go back and read posts numbers 1,13,14,15,25,26,27 and 32, its all there.

Your disagreement is not with me; it is with the Bible itself and with early Christianity, the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity.

The only way that you one can refute these verses, which all support Catholicism, is to wrongly claim that there exists a conflict in the Bible or that there exists Bible verses which conflict with one another and to quote verses out of context.

Keep in mind that the Bible is a “Catholic Book”. Why would the Roman Catholic Church put together the Bible, thirteen hundred years before any Protestant religion, in a way that would “disprove “ Catholic beliefs, and include verses, that the unknown at the time, Protestants, could use thirteen hundred years later against the Roman Catholic Church, this defies logic*. *

The belief in “Sola scriptura” or “Bible alone” is in error, anti-biblical and false. “Sola fide” or “Faith alone” is in error, anti-biblical and false. Luther was wrong, Calvin was wrong and Sir, you too are wrong.

There exists no such conflict in the Bible. The Bible is the "Word of God” and God is not in conflict with Himself. The harmony of Bible can only be known, appreciated and understood in context.

The Bible and Christianity cannot nor should not be summed-up by a ‘handful of verses”. If this were the case, the Bible would contain, only a ‘handful of verses*”.*

You do not actually believe that there exists a conflict in the Bible or that there exists Bible verses which conflict with one another, do you?

You are not basing your entire “faith”on a*“handful of Bible verses”,* are you?

You didn’t need to leave the Roman Catholic Faith, you just needed to understand your Catholic Faith. I do not believe that you left the Roman Catholic Church because of the “Council of Trent” or any theological differences, I believe, like many others, you left for personal reasons not theological reasons and because you did not understand your own faith… I don’t believe that you went to Mass one Sunday and then on the following Monday became a “Protestant”, because you “discovered” that you had theological differences with Catholicism. Read this.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I hope and pray that one day you will come home to the Roman Catholic Church. You are not the only one to ever have doupts about your faith, many have left, just to learn later that the Truth is contained in the Roman Catholic Church and they came home, I hope this will happen for you.

***I am a Roman Catholic so *I am not afraid of the truth.

Thank you and God Bless you. I will pray for you my friend**.***** ***

 

[paarsurrey]

Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works

Hi

We are saved with good faith, with good works to win grace/mercy of GodAllahYHWH.

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

I think to easily sum this conversation up we can all agree on the following. Is it faith alone or faith+good works?

The answer is Faith alone. We only have faith because of God’s grace and could never earn it by good works since by definition grace is umerited and undeserved. So works will never get it for us.

So then if it’s Faith alone we have to define what Faith is. And the bottom line is good works are a part of Faith. They can’t be separated plain and simple. If someone claims to have true Faith but then commits murder then I have a real issue with their Faith. On the flip side someone who truly has Faith will be producing good works. You can’t help it.

Some people are more passive with their good works and others are are more outward. For some good works may be someone who is a loving trusting husband or wife that cares deeply for their families and lives their life according to GOD’s laws. While others become more active with serving in their communities and pursuing charitable works.

We can’t start to place parameters around how much is enough or asking how much is needed because the answer is it could never be enough. We all agree no matter how much we do it will never get us to GOD because in the end we are still sinners and sinners can’t be with GOD. That’s why we have Faith.

So it’s invalid to state that scripture supports the Roman Catholic position because it doesn’t. It supports the position of anyone who understands what the word Faith truly means. Roman Catholics don’t understand when Protestants say Faith alone, and Protestants don’t understand when Roman Catholics say Faith plus works. In the end we’re saying the same thing we just don’t realize our terminology is different. You say tom-a-to I say
to-mah-to. But in the end it’s still a tomato.

PEACE

No you are wrong and works are not passive. For what is there to be gained to love those that love us.

Pharaoh loved his wife and son.

The rich man had faith but yet Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

A rich man has 2 Gods, the love of money and God. A pervert may have 2 loves, sex and God

I do not mean to be controversial but faith alone by definition and being of this earth rather than from this earth is a way of having 2 loves.
For one must love God with his or her whole mind, heart, and soul.
That means faith alone just does not cut it.

For you must make a conscious effort to help those that do not love you and not only if the Holy Spirit tells me to.

You must make a conscious effort to forgive those that trespassed against you.

Just as a conscious effort must be made for us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior it takes a (work) to be baptized.
Remember Jesus was baptized (a work) by John the Baptist. Jesus did not need to be Baptized.

a conscious effort must be made by works. Faith and works is what enables us to get to heaven they go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Peanut butter is separate from jelly even when we make a sandwich. We do not put peanut butter and jelly in a bowl and swish it all together before making a sandwich.
They tried it in a jar and it just did not sell.

You are there when you say good works are part of faith Good faith must have good works.

One does not brag about works by lets others see our works so they know we are Christians.

Remember Jesus said they will know you are a Christian by your love (works) Love is not just a word but an action.

Because one has faith does not mean they will do what is right or needed automatically as that takes work. A marriage takes work and faith in each other and love of Christ takes work and faith in Him.
If your spouse says I love you and has faith you will do what is right but you do not do any sacrifices(works) to make the marriage whole than how is that love and how can the marriage stand. There is no love there (no works)

 

[JonNC]

Hope that helps.

Fidelis,
That does help. Thank you. After reading through what you have said, I could disagree with some of the nuances (like the role of sanctification), but not the general principals you state. As a Lutheran, we generally don’t make distinctions between kinds of sins, but I do understand what you are saying.
Most of all, I appreciate your bringing Baptism into the discussion. It something all of us in this thread have overlooked as far as its role in our salvation.

Finally, a question; from your perspective (and in laymen’s terms), and in light of the JDDJ, what are the areas of divergence?
How easily can they be overcome? Are they necessarily church dividing?

Jon

 

[NDfan]

No you are wrong and works are not passive. For what is there to be gained to love those that love us.

Pharaoh loved his wife and son.

No I’m not wrong. I’m absolutely right. Your comparison of Pharaoh is what’s wrong because Pharaoh did not believe in the GOD of the Jews. This is not even pertinent to this discussion.

The rich man had faith but yet Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

Jesus was making the point that rich people will follow their money instead of HIMSELF. This man claimed to have faith then chose his money instead of Jesus. Jesus was then calling his faith into question.

A rich man has 2 Gods, the love of money and God. A pervert may have 2 loves, sex and God

Right and you can’t have 2 GODs. Your points aren’t even relevant to what I was saying.

I do not mean to be controversial but faith alone by definition and being of this earth rather than from this earth is a way of having 2 loves.
For one must love God with his or her whole mind, heart, and soul. That means faith alone just does not cut it.

Again you are misunderstanding what Faith alone means and if you read my post carefully instead of pushing the quote button so you could say I’m wrong, you’d see that I’m 100% right.

For you must make a conscious effort to help those that do not love you and not only if the Holy Spirit tells me to.

But you are then implying if you don’t do this but have faith you are not saved. You couldn’t be more wrong. You’re creating a quota system which will not work for GOD. Good works will not make us right in GOD’s eyes plain and simple. Faith in Jesus is how we are redeemed. Maybe you need to learn about redemption a little more.

You must make a conscious effort to forgive those that trespassed against you.

Yeah this comes right from the Lord’s Prayer. Which is also followed by if we can’t forgive one another then how can we expect GOD to forgive us? This has nothing to do with good works and is irrevelant to this discussion.

Just as a conscious effort must be made for us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior it takes a (work) to be baptized.

But getting baptized is not a work that causes us to accept Jesus. We get baptized because we believe in Jesus. Just like we do good works because we believe in Jesus. We don’t do good works so we can believe. Your theology needs much help.

Remember Jesus was baptized (a work) by John the Baptist. Jesus did not need to be Baptized.

Yes he did. That’s when the Holy Spirit descended on HIM which is the example Jesus set for us. If Jesus didn’t need to be baptized then why command us to be baptized?

a conscious effort must be made by works. Faith and works is what enables us to get to heaven they go together like peanut butter and jelly.

You’re restating exactly what I said but then you are trying to define specifically what those works should be and you can’t do that. For each person it’s different. Like I said some are more passive with their works and others are more aggressive. Both are saved.

Peanut butter is separate from jelly even when we make a sandwich. We do not put peanut butter and jelly in a bowl and swish it all together before making a sandwich.
They tried it in a jar and it just did not sell.

Again your theology needs some help my friend.

You are there when you say good works are part of faith Good faith must have good works.

No I’m exactly right in what I said.

One does not brag about works by lets others see our works so they know we are Christians.

Remember Jesus said they will know you are a Christian by your love (works) Love is not just a word but an action.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.

Because one has faith does not mean they will do what is right or needed automatically as that takes work. A marriage takes work and faith in each other and love of Christ takes work and faith in Him.
If your spouse says I love you and has faith you will do what is right but you do not do any sacrifices(works) to make the marriage whole than how is that love and how can the marriage stand. There is no love there (no works)

Again you are making my earlier point about someone I referred to as being passive with their works. For some good works IS working on their marriage and being a good husband or wife. Yes that does take work. But for others their good works contains community outreach, missionary trips, etc. etc. etc. We can’t create a list of good works that one has to perform to satisfy their Faith which is what you are proposing. That’s ridiculous and we know our works don’t justify us to GOD.

So basically you just made my point except you educated me on why peanut butter and jelly can’t be in the same jar. 5 minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

 

[NDfan]

–>Christ did NOT die on the Cross in our place for our individual sins, past, present and future
–>Christ DID die on the Cross to take away the sin (in general) of the world (John 1:29). This is what we call “the Redemption"

Fidelis you are contradicting yourself here in these 2 sentences.

You say Jesus didn’t die for sins past, present, and future but then you state, Jesus died to take away sins of the world (in general). Which ones then and what constitues “in general”?? You say not individual sin but then say sins of the world. Isn’t the world made up of individuals? Not trying to be flip but you don’t make sense. Given that he died 2000 years ago and HIS sacrifice still applies to us today and to future generations then absolutely that is present and future sin. Given he died for sins committed at that time and he preached the good news in Hades to ones considered worthy I would say that’s past sin.

I apologize but Christ absolutely did die for our sins past, present, and future. All individual sins which make up the sins of the world. The 2 can’t be separated. You’re implying that the world’s sins are separate from my personal sins. My personal sins contribute to the world’s sins. HIS sacrifice was the one time perfect sacrifice demanded of GOD for the price of our sins. Individually and collectively. That’s redemption plain and simple. Protestants are not wrong on this.

I think what you might be talking about is when some Protestants state that sin doesn’t matter, past present, or future because Jesus paid the price. I’ve heard this before and promptly try to correct it. Some feel that you can continue to live in sin and it doesn’t matter because Jesus paid the price. That’s like trying to serve 2 masters. But the bottom line is no matter how spiritually mature we are we will still commit sin. And that’s why Jesus sacrifice is so vital to us.

PEACE

 

[Fidelis]

Finally, a question; from your perspective (and in laymen’s terms), and in light of the JDDJ, what are the areas of divergence?
How easily can they be overcome? Are they necessarily church dividing?

Jon

Unfortunately, I am not well versed enough in that particular document to make any kind of intelligent evaluation. I would re-recommend the book I mentioned in my post above --“The Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin. This short, easy to read book examines the Joint Declaration and offers some conclusions based on the Catholic uderstanding of justification. If I’m not mistaken, you can find it in the “Shop” area of this website.

 

[Fidelis]

I think what you might be talking about is when some Protestants state that sin doesn’t matter, past present, or future because Jesus paid the price. I’ve heard this before and promptly try to correct it. Some feel that you can continue to live in sin and it doesn’t matter because Jesus paid the price. That’s like trying to serve 2 masters. But the bottom line is no matter how spiritually mature we are we will still commit sin. And that’s why Jesus sacrifice is so vital to us.

PEACE

Thank you for answering your own question. That is exactly what I was referring to.

 

[c659smith]

No I’m not wrong. I’m absolutely right. Your comparison of Pharaoh is what’s wrong because Pharaoh did not believe in the GOD of the Jews. This is not even pertinent to this discussion.

Jesus was making the point that rich people will follow their money instead of HIMSELF. This man claimed to have faith then chose his money instead of Jesus. Jesus was then calling his faith into question.

Right and you can’t have 2 GODs. Your points aren’t even relevant to what I was saying.

Again you are misunderstanding what Faith alone means and if you read my post carefully instead of pushing the quote button so you could say I’m wrong, you’d see that I’m 100% right.

But you are then implying if you don’t do this but have faith you are not saved. You couldn’t be more wrong. You’re creating a quota system which will not work for GOD. Good works will not make us right in GOD’s eyes plain and simple. Faith in Jesus is how we are redeemed. Maybe you need to learn about redemption a little more.

Yeah this comes right from the Lord’s Prayer. Which is also followed by if we can’t forgive one another then how can we expect GOD to forgive us? This has nothing to do with good works and is irrevelant to this discussion.

But getting baptized is not a work that causes us to accept Jesus. We get baptized because we believe in Jesus. Just like we do good works because we believe in Jesus. We don’t do good works so we can believe. Your theology needs much help.

Yes he did. That’s when the Holy Spirit descended on HIM which is the example Jesus set for us. If Jesus didn’t need to be baptized then why command us to be baptized?

You’re restating exactly what I said but then you are trying to define specifically what those works should be and you can’t do that. For each person it’s different. Like I said some are more passive with their works and others are more aggressive. Both are saved.

Again your theology needs some help my friend.

No I’m exactly right in what I said.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.

Again you are making my earlier point about someone I referred to as being passive with their works. For some good works IS working on their marriage and being a good husband or wife. Yes that does take work. But for others their good works contains community outreach, missionary trips, etc. etc. etc. We can’t create a list of good works that one has to perform to satisfy their Faith which is what you are proposing. That’s ridiculous and we know our works don’t justify us to GOD.

So basically you just made my point except you educated me on why peanut butter and jelly can’t be in the same jar. 5 minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved? If so, then we are not saved by faith alone, are we? We are saved by faith and love—which Catholics refer to as faith working through love (cf. Gal. 5:6). If a person says we do not need love in order to be saved, then he is saying we can get to heaven without loving God or our fellow man—a patently ridiculous position to take. Also, if faith alone saves us, faith without love, why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? After all, if salvation is the greatest thing we can achieve, and it is by faith alone that we achieve salvation, then faith should be greater than love. But the Bible says differently.

 

[c659smith]

No I’m not wrong. I’m absolutely right. Your comparison of Pharaoh is what’s wrong because Pharaoh did not believe in the GOD of the Jews. This is not even pertinent to this discussion.

Jesus was making the point that rich people will follow their money instead of HIMSELF. This man claimed to have faith then chose his money instead of Jesus. Jesus was then calling his faith into question.

Right and you can’t have 2 GODs. Your points aren’t even relevant to what I was saying.

Again you are misunderstanding what Faith alone means and if you read my post carefully instead of pushing the quote button so you could say I’m wrong, you’d see that I’m 100% right.

But you are then implying if you don’t do this but have faith you are not saved. You couldn’t be more wrong. You’re creating a quota system which will not work for GOD. Good works will not make us right in GOD’s eyes plain and simple. Faith in Jesus is how we are redeemed. Maybe you need to learn about redemption a little more.

Yeah this comes right from the Lord’s Prayer. Which is also followed by if we can’t forgive one another then how can we expect GOD to forgive us? This has nothing to do with good works and is irrevelant to this discussion.

But getting baptized is not a work that causes us to accept Jesus. We get baptized because we believe in Jesus. Just like we do good works because we believe in Jesus. We don’t do good works so we can believe. Your theology needs much help.

Yes he did. That’s when the Holy Spirit descended on HIM which is the example Jesus set for us. If Jesus didn’t need to be baptized then why command us to be baptized?

You’re restating exactly what I said but then you are trying to define specifically what those works should be and you can’t do that. For each person it’s different. Like I said some are more passive with their works and others are more aggressive. Both are saved.

Again your theology needs some help my friend.

No I’m exactly right in what I said.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.

Again you are making my earlier point about someone I referred to as being passive with their works. For some good works IS working on their marriage and being a good husband or wife. Yes that does take work. But for others their good works contains community outreach, missionary trips, etc. etc. etc. We can’t create a list of good works that one has to perform to satisfy their Faith which is what you are proposing. That’s ridiculous and we know our works don’t justify us to GOD.

So basically you just made my point except you educated me on why peanut butter and jelly can’t be in the same jar. 5 minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

If you don’t believe the Holy Spirit infallibly guides the Catholic Church, how can you believe the Bible is the word of God? This very Church discerned and declared which early writings were Scripture and which were not. Without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible. And do you know what, according to the Bible, is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15)? Scripture? No—the Church. Who, then, can do without it?

Faith and works

 

[SIA]

Hello, SIA,

It does… the Bible say’s that we are saved by “faith alone”… please show me where it “says” that… Please include source information with your opinions, like Bible verses for example and post them here that would be helpful.

I like you but you are incorrect in asserting that we are “saved by faith alone”. You might want to go back and read posts numbers 1,13,14,15,25,26,27 and 32, its all there.

Your disagreement is not with me; it is with the Bible itself and with early Christianity, the first fifteen hundred years of Christianity.

The only way that you one can refute these verses, which all support Catholicism, is to wrongly claim that there exists a conflict in the Bible or that there exists Bible verses which conflict with one another and to quote verses out of context.

Keep in mind that the Bible is a “Catholic Book”. Why would the Roman Catholic Church put together the Bible, thirteen hundred years before any Protestant religion, in a way that would “disprove “ Catholic beliefs, and include verses, that the unknown at the time, Protestants, could use thirteen hundred years later against the Roman Catholic Church, this defies logic*. *

The belief in “Sola scriptura” or “Bible alone” is in error, anti-biblical and false. “Sola fide” or “Faith alone” is in error, anti-biblical and false. Luther was wrong, Calvin was wrong and Sir, you too are wrong.

There exists no such conflict in the Bible. The Bible is the "Word of God” and God is not in conflict with Himself. The harmony of Bible can only be known, appreciated and understood in context.

The Bible and Christianity cannot nor should not be summed-up by a ‘handful of verses”. If this were the case, the Bible would contain, only a ‘handful of verses*”.*

You do not actually believe that there exists a conflict in the Bible or that there exists Bible verses which conflict with one another, do you?

You are not basing your entire “faith”on a*“handful of Bible verses”,* are you?

You didn’t need to leave the Roman Catholic Faith, you just needed to understand your Catholic Faith. I do not believe that you left the Roman Catholic Church because of the “Council of Trent” or any theological differences, I believe, like many others, you left for personal reasons not theological reasons and because you did not understand your own faith… I don’t believe that you went to Mass one Sunday and then on the following Monday became a “Protestant”, because you “discovered” that you had theological differences with Catholicism. Read this.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

I hope and pray that one day you will come home to the Roman Catholic Church. You are not the only one to ever have doupts about your faith, many have left, just to learn later that the Truth is contained in the Roman Catholic Church and they came home, I hope this will happen for you.

***I am a Roman Catholic so ***I am not afraid of the truth.

Thank you and God Bless you. I will pray for you my friend**.***** ***

Sir, you are obviously wrapped in your religion as was the Jews in Jesus’ time so therefore I could argue with you all night long about how Paul tells us many many times in his Epistles that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ and you would only care to focus upon what your church says and teaches and requires regardless of what the Scriptures say. All I can say is that your Bible must contain vastly different translations of Paul’s letters to the Romans and Ephesians than compared to mine.