Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?

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Back to the original topic:

Consider the parable of the Sower and the Seed. Jesus says the seed is the Word.

“As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
Matt 13:23 (RSV)

The seed is scattered everywhere. Everywhere it tries to grow. The result of full growth is bearing fruit. Some grow less fruit than others - but it is the fruitful that are gathered in the harvest. (See also the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, Mt 13:30.)

Jesus says that the fruitful are those who hear the word and understand it. I think that those who rely on (for example) Jn 3:16 as the final word on the subject are not hearing the whole Word. There are verses that seem to contradict this, such as Mark 16:16 – “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (RSV)

Instead of breaking this verse into two halves, and using the second half to prove “Sola Fide,” we should add them together. Thus John 3:16 and Mk 16:16 add up to “we must believe and be baptized to be saved.” That is hearing the whole Word. That’s what Jimmy is talking about when he says we Catholics read the whole Bible.

In truth, most non-Catholic Christians (NCCs) do agree with us Catholics. We cannot earn our way to Heaven by doing good deeds - but works prove our faith.

Ruthie
 
Ruthie said:
Back to the original topic:

Consider the parable of the Sower and the Seed. Jesus says the seed is the Word.

“As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
Matt 13:23 (RSV)

The seed is scattered everywhere. Everywhere it tries to grow. The result of full growth is bearing fruit. Some grow less fruit than others - but it is the fruitful that are gathered in the harvest. (See also the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, Mt 13:30.)

Jesus says that the fruitful are those who hear the word and understand it. I think that those who rely on (for example) Jn 3:16 as the final word on the subject are not hearing the whole Word. There are verses that seem to contradict this, such as Mark 16:16 – “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (RSV)

Instead of breaking this verse into two halves, and using the second half to prove “Sola Fide,” we should add them together. Thus John 3:16 and Mk 16:16 add up to “we must believe and be baptized to be saved.” That is hearing the whole Word. That’s what Jimmy is talking about when he says we Catholics read the whole Bible.

In truth, most non-Catholic Christians (NCCs) do agree with us Catholics. We cannot earn our way to Heaven by doing good deeds - but works prove our faith.

Ruthie
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Hello Ruthie

Thank you for your excellent post. I agree and… you already know this …but… Holy Scripture (all of it) the Church, the Magisterium, the Holy Sacraments, the Office of the Pope, Holy Tradition and Christian History are all important…So are the lives of the Saints and Martyrs….

Peace
 
khutcheson said:
Your post ignore the possiblity that Protestants come to their beliefs without reference to Catholic dogma, but instead based solely on the Bible.
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Such a possibility would have produced semi-Christians only because these early communities based their beliefs **ON PARTS **of the what would become known as the complete Bible, on the LIMITED sacred writings they had in their possession at that time.

The 27 books of the New Testament were officially canonized in A.D. 382. Prior to that year, many early communities had many N.T. books in their possession but not all 27. Some of these communitiies even had books in their possession that they thought to be sacred but never were declared canonical by the Catholic Church in the late 4th century. So, in essence, the list of N.T. books, prior to the late 4th century, often varied from community to community.

Now, would you say these communities prior to the late 4th century experienced the fullness of the Christian faith compared to our community today with the complete 27 New Testament books? Do you consider them to be equal Christians to yourself?

Were the different early communities with their slightly different lists of limited N.T. books equal to one another in the fullness of Christianity during that time?

These questions are extremely difficult for Sola Scripturists to ponder, much less answer.

Finally, if Protestants argue that “the limited sacred writings were sufficient for the faith at that time and as more books became known they were added, etc, etc, etc.,” they have another tough question to ponder and answer: How is that process not an example of “development of doctrine”?
 
ChristianRoots said:
Such a possibility would have produced semi-Christians only because these early communities based their beliefs **ON PARTS **of the what would become known as the complete Bible, on the LIMITED sacred writings they had in their possession at that time.

The 27 books of the New Testament were officially canonized in A.D. 382. Prior to that year, many early communities had many N.T. books in their possession but not all 27. Some of these communitiies even had books in their possession that they thought to be sacred but never were declared canonical by the Catholic Church in the late 4th century. So, in essence, the list of N.T. books, prior to the late 4th century, often varied from community to community.

Now, would you say these communities prior to the late 4th century experienced the fullness of the Christian faith compared to our community today with the complete 27 New Testament books? Do you consider them to be equal Christians to yourself?

Were the different early communities with their slightly different lists of limited N.T. books equal to one another in the fullness of Christianity during that time?

These questions are extremely difficult for Sola Scripturists to ponder, much less answer.

Finally, if Protestants argue that “the limited sacred writings were sufficient for the faith at that time and as more books became known they were added, etc, etc, etc.,” they have another tough question to ponder and answer: How is that process not an example of “development of doctrine”?
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Great post!..All good questions… I would like to read the response.

Anyone?

Anyone?

Peace.
 
SIA said:
Ranting against the words of Scripture is all this is. This shows me the typical hostile response of someone who cannot draw near enough to Christ to know him and to know how he forgives us and sustains us and changes us. Let go of what the “Catholic church says” and what the “Catholic church teaches”. Read the Word and grwo close with Christ. Let the peace of Christ dwell within you. You haven’t experienced it, I can tell.
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Well, wouldn’t you also classify the following as, at least in some sense, “ranting against the words of Scripture?”😉 😉
Moses must ever be looked upon with suspicion, even as upon a heretic, excommunicated, damned, worse than the Pope and the devil.
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:eek:

Martin Luther - Lectures on Galatians, Luther’s Works, vol. 26, p. 365.

Luther’s Works, American Edition, volume 26, Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4, Jaroslav Pelikan, Walter A. Hansen, eds., Concordia Publishing House, Saint Louis, ISBN: 0570064260

amazon.com/Luthers-Works-Lectures-Galatians-Chapters/dp/0570064260

A Commentary on Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians, Martin Luther, Rev. Erasmus Middleton, B.D., (1833), London, B. Blake.

books.google.com/books?id=sGXgZgVK-1kC&pg=PA288&dq=%22worse+than+the+Pope+and+the+devil%22&lr=
I will have none of Moses with his law, for he is the enemy of the Lord Christ.
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:eek: :eek: :eek:
  • Table Talk (Tischreden oder Colloquia Doct. Mart. Luthers (Eisleben: Urban Gaubisch, 1566).
The Table Talk of Dr. Martin Luther, (1883), Martin Luther; John Gibb; Karl Edward Förstemann, OCLC 41916852

(The table talk of … Martin Luther [tr. by J.G.]. 4th centenary ed By Martin Luther) books.google.com/books?lr=&id=b7UCAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22for+he+is+the+enemy+of+the+lord+christ%22&q=l.c.&pgis=1#search

books.google.com/books?q=%22for%20he%20is%20the%20enemy%20of%20the%20lord%20christ%22&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&filter=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wp

worldcat.org/search?q=ti%3ATischreden+oder+Colloquia+&qt=advanced

At the very least, I think you might agree that one who habitually uses this kind :eek: of language is not really indicative of one who has drawn “near enough to Christ to know him and to know how he forgives us and sustains us and changes us.”

Most quote taken from LW 41. ISBN 0800603419:
amazon.com/Luthers-Works-41-Church-Ministry/dp/0800603419
“When his body, remember, was pierced by the lance, it poured forth the water and the blood by which he cancelled our sins. Be mindful of this grace as you work out your salvation, since it is God who is at work in you, and approach with fear and trembling to partake of this altar. Recognize in the bread what hung on the cross, and in the cup what flowed from his side.”

Augustine, sermon 228B :2:1, pp. 261-262.

“You see, those old sacrifices of the people of God also represented in a variety of ways this single one that was to come.”

Sermon 228B:2:2, p. 262

Sermons 184-229 (Works of Saint Augustine) ISBN 1565480503
amazon.com/Sermons-184-229-Works-Saint-Augustine/dp/1565480503
 
Faith Alone is rediculous and Protestants that want to believe that knows they are misguided for comfort of the body and are of this earth.

If heaven is the greatest Aim for every Christian then “faith alone” should be the greatest action needed for salvation. Why then does the bible state love is greater than faith?

For faith requires action, that is what the bible says.

Never, never, never in the bible are the words “faith alone” placed together. Martin Luther tried when he attempted to re-write the bible but was regurgitated by his followers.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?

Simply put; “good works” means, doing those things that are pleasing to God.

What Christian is apposed to doing those things that are pleasing to God?

So, what is the opposite of “good works”?

The opposite of “good works” would be, doing those things that are not pleasing to God or failing to do what is pleasing to God.
_____________________________

If you believe that we are not judged by our “good works”, then please answer these 5 questions:

**1. **If “good works”, physical acts (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, Then why do “Born Again” Christians recite the “Born Again” prayer? Isn’t reciting the “sinners” prayer, a physical act or an act of “good works”? Isn’t this act performed prior to one receiving “God’s grace”?

Reciting the “Born Again” prayer would definitely be, “good works”.

2. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do we baptize and why are we Baptized? Isn’t Baptism a physical act or an act of “good works”?

The act of Baptism is definitely an act of “good works”.

3. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with funeral ceremonies? Why do Christian Pastors read or recite prayers at funerals? Isn’t a funeral ceremony a physical act or an act of “good works”?

Funeral ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.

4. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with “wedding ceremonies” (Holy Matrimony), isn’t a wedding ceremony an act of “good works”?

Wedding ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.

5. If “good works” (doing those things which are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, because our Salvation is “guaranteed”, then why is it necessary for us to pray, read the Bible, go to Church on the Sabbath, avoid sin, forgive, love and asked to be forgiven?

Aren’t all these, all acts of “good works””?
_____________________________

Please let me know if you disagree with my comments, thank you.
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To believe that you must also do good works to be saved is to lack true faith in Christ and to also disregard what the Bible says about salvation.
 
SIA said:
To believe that you must also do good works to be saved is to lack true faith in Christ and to also disregard what the Bible says about salvation.
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You ignore again scripture and I can go quote after quote but it would be useless as you come here with a closed mind.

I am sure you agree TO LOVE is an action not a noun.

Does the bible say Love is greater than Faith.

If the greatest goal for all of us is heaven then if all we need is faith, how can it be then that love be greater?

If I have total faith in Christ but cannot forgive another can I get to heaven accrding to scripture?

Faith equals to believe does it not and to believe that Christ is the Savior correct?

Does the Devil believe that? Sure He does but the Devils faith alone does not get him into heaven --Does it?

For the Devils works are selfish, without love, and bad.

Faith alone I believe is a lukewarm type of faith. and we know what scripture says about that.

Get excited about Jesus being your Savior, evangelize, do good works, and keep that faith like a child with a new toy --use it–work it–play it–live it.

For I do not wish to be spat out
 
SIA said:
To believe that you must also do good works to be saved is to lack true faith in Christ and to also disregard what the Bible says about salvation.
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SIA,

Thank you for the “talking points” but you didn’t answer any of my questions.

Please try again…thank you.
 
Jimmy_B said:
SIA,

Thank you for the “talking points” but you didn’t answer any of my questions.

Please try again…thank you.
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I believe that it is all pretty self explanatory. Paul never spoke of having to earn one’s way to salvation, in fact he used Abraham as an example of how he was saved because of how he believed and to boast not of his works. You can’t out argue Scripture Jimmy. Plain and simple. If what you are saying doesn’t add up with Scripture, then you are wrong. Works don’t save, grace through faith saves. The works prove the faith but does not enhance it.
 
SIA said:
I believe that it is all pretty self explanatory. Paul never spoke of having to earn one’s way to salvation, in fact he used Abraham as an example of how he was saved because of how he believed and to boast not of his works. You can’t out argue Scripture Jimmy. Plain and simple. If what you are saying doesn’t add up with Scripture, then you are wrong. Works don’t save, grace through faith saves. The works prove the faith but does not enhance it.
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Please read post’s # 13,14 and 15 on this thread. 👍

Please try again…thank you.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Please read post’s # 13,14 and 15 on this thread. 👍

Please try again…thank you.
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What is your point? Your chosen Scriptures to attempt to prove that we earn our way by works doesn’t say anything like that. They speak of works in harmony with faith. You must not regard St. Paul as canonized Scripture then which would be news to me. He clearly says that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. You ignore this blatantly.
 
Th problem here is that you don’t read Scripture with any degree of authority which it posesses. Pick and choose is what many Catholics do especially when they want to use Scripture to attempt to prove their doctrine. Let’s talk about what Paul says about salvation.
 
SIA said:
Th problem here is that you don’t read Scripture with any degree of authority which it posesses. Pick and choose is what many Catholics do especially when they want to use Scripture to attempt to prove their doctrine. Let’s talk about what Paul says about salvation.
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Ok, you first…🙂
 
The Bible is a Catholic Book and everything in it supports Catholicism!
 
I hope this gets read within such an already big thread, if not maybe I will start a new thread:

This whole concept goes through my mind often.

It seems this idea of salvation has become a self-centered, selfish ideology where people just want to know for sure they are going to Heaven (which there is nothing wrong with wanting to know you are going to Heaven.)

I just do not quite understand the idea behind this. Is all people are really concerned about is their salvation…or do they care also about carying on the faith that Jesus left for us?

A faith which requires works!

How do we know about Christianity today?
Because Christians of the past did GOOD WORKS and passed the faith on to us. It was because of their GOOD WORKS that we are able to hear the message of the Gospel and ourselves be saved. Where we are then obligated to perform GOOD WORKS to pass the faith on to future generations.

Definitely it is by the grace of God that we are able to profess our faith and do these good works, but it is also by the grace of God that a murder still gets to breath and have the sun shine on his face.

None of us would be saved if the grace of God did not allow people to do good works and hand on the faith!
 
tGette said:
I hope this gets read within such an already big thread, if not maybe I will start a new thread:

This whole concept goes through my mind often.

It seems this idea of salvation has become a self-centered, selfish ideology where people just want to know for sure they are going to Heaven (which there is nothing wrong with wanting to know you are going to Heaven.)

I just do not quite understand the idea behind this. Is all people are really concerned about is their salvation…or do they care also about carying on the faith that Jesus left for us?

A faith which requires works!

How do we know about Christianity today?
Because Christians of the past did GOOD WORKS and passed the faith on to us. It was because of their GOOD WORKS that we are able to hear the message of the Gospel and ourselves be saved. Where we are then obligated to perform GOOD WORKS to pass the faith on to future generations.

Definitely it is by the grace of God that we are able to profess our faith and do these good works, but it is also by the grace of God that a murder still gets to breath and have the sun shine on his face.

None of us would be saved if the grace of God did not allow people to do good works and hand on the faith!
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👍 👍
 
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