Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

[phoenix3212]

Exactly! But I do not see catholics following this as they believe that one must be baptized in order to obtain salvation.

We are saved by Christ. The thing is, Christ has the ability to dictate the terms by which he saves us. One of most essential terms is baptism.

There is no contradiction.

 

[Eleve]

Also, Catholics believe that it is not absolutely necessary to be baptized by water, as in the case of the Repentant Thief.

 

[phoenix3212]

Also, Catholics believe that it is not absolutely necessary to be baptized by water, as in the case of the Repentant Thief.

I thought baptism wasn’t necessary until the Resurrection?

 

[Stouts989]

The one and only baptism needed is the baptism of the holy spirit for salvation. The baptism by water is a covenantal sign commanded by Jesus that should be done by all Christians. But as mentioned above as the thief on the cross, isn’t necessary for salvation.

There is both people, those who are saved who can’t be water baptized, and those who are water baptized who aren’t saved.

But off topic…

 

[phoenix3212]

The one and only baptism needed is the baptism of the holy spirit for salvation. The baptism by water is a covenantal sign commanded by Jesus that should be done by all Christians. But as mentioned above as the thief on the cross, isn’t necessary for salvation.

There is both people, those who are saved who can’t be water baptized, and those who are water baptized who aren’t saved.

But off topic…

Hermas: “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr: “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Origen: “It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

I would rather believe what these guys had to say.

See: catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

 

[Harpazo]

Why don’t you settle this by reading what Jesus has to say in Mt. 25:31-46. This is getting to be like the chicken and the egg argument. Regardless of which came first, works or faith, Jesus says works are necessary to enter the pearly gates and that’s good enough for me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Didn’t St. Paul also say in Romans that we will be judged by our deeds?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Eleve]

Hermas: “‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’” (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr: “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Origen: “It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

I would rather believe what these guys had to say.

See: catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

From that article:

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood,” martyrdom for Christ, or through “baptism of desire”, that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

 

[Christalone]

I would rather believe what these guys had to say.

Quite typical, rather from man than God.

 

[phoenix3212]

Quite typical, rather from man than God.

Some of those Church Fathers were taught by the apostles and those who knew the apostles. If they didn’t get it right, what hope is there for us?

Do you accept the Nicene Creed as correct? What about that part where it says “We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”? Baptism does convey grace. The problem is that you’ve already concluded it doesn’t, and then take in new information from said vantage point.

 

[Harpazo]

Quite typical, rather from man than God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

How do you know that the words those men said were not from God? Are you claiming to know the mind of God? I could turn around your statement to make it say assuming you know everything about Christianity, typical of a protestant. How does that sound? Not to pretty, eh? Please think about what you’re saying before you say it, otherwise no one will be listening to you whatsoever and there will be no learning and growth.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Christalone]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

How do you know that the words those men said were not from God? Are you claiming to know the mind of God? I could turn around your statement to make it say assuming you know everything about Christianity, typical of a protestant. How does that sound? Not to pretty, eh? Please think about what you’re saying before you say it, otherwise no one will be listening to you whatsoever and there will be no learning and growth.

In Christ,
Andrew

Well you might as well join right in with the rest who claim that protestants have no clue as to what is going on

 

[phoenix3212]

Well you might as well join right in with the rest who claim that protestants have no clue as to what is going on

A lot of them do. But by the looks of your posts, you don’t. We’ve explained to you time and time again that the deuterocanonicals were accepted as canon since the fourth century, that Catholicism doesn’t teach justification by works, that history proves you wrong, but you just don’t seem to get it

 

[freedomwriter]

Excuse me! Who made you God? This coming from a fence straddler.

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

Amen I totally agree with you

 

[freedomwriter]

A lot of them do. But by the looks of your posts, you don’t. We’ve explained to you time and time again that the deuterocanonicals were accepted as canon since the fourth century, that Catholicism doesn’t teach justification by works, that history proves you wrong, but you just don’t seem to get it

Christalone is totally right!! We are saved by faith. Works is just a by product of our faith

 

[Peter_J]

In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc.

Most definitely, we are saved “by faith apart from works”; but the Bible never says that we are saved “by faith alone”.

 

[Stouts989]

Justified by faith and our faith is justified by works (simplest way to sum up James 2). A real, alive faith has works. I don’t see the RCC differing from what reform theology teaches about how we are justified and made right before God. Its by grace through faith through Christ alone.

From what I’ve been gatherings the difference seems to lay with the state of salvation.

Reform theology teaches that the saved or the elected will remain saved because of God’s promises to keep them protected and from falling away(1 Peter 1, for example). Anyone who “falls” away from the faith was never saved in the first place (1 John 2).

From what I’ve read the RCC teaches that if someone “falls” away from the faith then they loose their salvation and if they do x, y, and/or z then they will gain there salvation back.

To answer the OP question…

We are saved by faith alone, but that faith is not alone…so works are needed. Our works are not what saves us, but what “proves” (not to God, He knows) that we have a saving faith. So in effect works are needed.

 

[wxboss]

Most definitely, we are saved “by faith apart from works”; but the Bible never says that we are saved “by faith alone”.

The Catholic belief (if I know it correctly) is that true faith is exhibited through obedience. “I know what delights God; therefore, I will do what pleases Him.”

The whole problem with the faith vs. works debate is that it attempts to separate two issues that are dependent upon each other. “I believe it will rain today; therefore, I will take the umbrella with me.” A very simple example of how faith (or belief) translates itself into the real world with a practical response (or work).

The ultimate expression of true faith is evident by how one responds to what they believe.

Matthew 7:16:

*By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? *

 

[JonNC]

Most definitely, we are saved “by faith apart from works”; but the Bible never says that we are saved “by faith alone”.

Peter,
Most Lutherans would argue that these mean the same thing, but I am willing to move off the dime and accept what you say here, with the understanding that works means more than just Mosaic law.
The Joint Declaration says: “By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works” It is clear that we are saved by grace alone through faith in Christ, but when we are called to good works, we do not have the option of not responding to that call.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Well you might as well join right in with the rest who claim that protestants have no clue as to what is going on

I don’t think that was what Andrew was saying, nor is it his practice here, at least from what I have observed.

Jon

 

[geometer]

We are saved by an act of God, its called grace. Justification does no mean salvation.

If God answers your prayer your faith justified.

Salvation is simply an answer to prayer. God can and does answer prayer, Paul was very confused if he did not understand that. The arguments about sanctification and justification are nonesense. Jesus said that his gospel is simple enough for a child to understand. Pauls arguments there is no end to, and could not be understood by Einstein.

There is one father, and one teacher, and he is not Paul. He was causing mischief in being such a pretender.