Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

[StrawberryJam]

I thought christians wanted to do good works from their heart. If that is true, then isn’t that a part of them? If that is a part of them, then it is not something that can be seperated right? So why is there an argument going on about this?

 

[O.S.Luke]

Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

“Yes.”

 

[ababbidg]

I think it would be helpful to rephrase the question like this: If you have faith, but no works, will you still be saved?

 

[ricko]

I think it would be helpful to rephrase the question like this: If you have faith, but no works, will you still be saved?

NO! Remember that James says that even the Devil has faith and shudders.

 

[JonNC]

I think it would be helpful to rephrase the question like this: If you have faith, but no works, will you still be saved?

If you have faith, but no works, how long will it be until you had faith?

Jon

 

[StrawberryJam]

NO! Remember that James says that even the Devil has faith and shudders.

I don’t think it says the Devil has faith. I think it says even the demons believe and they shudder.

Of course, if all this is true then Satan can not deny the existance of God, he only denies that God’s plan is worth obeying.

 

[ricko]

I don’t think it says the Devil has faith. I think it says even the demons believe and they shudder.

Of course, if all this is true then Satan can not deny the existance of God, he only denies that God’s plan is worth obeying.

Yes it probably does use “believe”.

faith [fayth]
(plural faiths)
n

1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
   I wouldn’t put my faith in him to straighten things out.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Yes it probably does use “believe”.

faith [fayth]
(plural faiths)
n

1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
   I wouldn’t put my faith in him to straighten things out.

Let me clarify again.

Satan does not deny God’s existance, therefore Satan believes God exists.
Satan however, can not be said to have faith in God. Satan rejected God’s plan.

Do you understand what I am saying now?

I reject the entire biblical account to have any basis in truth. Therefore I lack both belief and faith.

 

[ricko]

"You are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the last judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: Rom. 2:5-8).

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil” (2 Cor. 5:10).

"Their end will correspond to their deeds" (2 Cor. 11:15).

“Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance; be slaves of the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will receive recompense for the wrong he committed, and there is no partiality” (Col. 3:24-25).

“Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning” (1 Pet. 1:17).

“Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds” (Rev. 20:12-13).

As Catholics we do believe that we are saved by grace and that God will protect those that REMAIN in His grace. On the other hand the BIBLE and the Catholic Church are in agreement that works does play a role in our salvation. We can reject the free gift of salvation by NOT performing good works. They go together as the Catholic Church and the bible teaches.

Strawberry, I understand your thinking now. Thank you.

 

[Stouts989]

We are saved by an act of God, its called grace. Justification does no mean salvation.

If God answers your prayer your faith justified.

Salvation is simply an answer to prayer. God can and does answer prayer, Paul was very confused if he did not understand that. The arguments about sanctification and justification are nonesense. Jesus said that his gospel is simple enough for a child to understand. Pauls arguments there is no end to, and could not be understood by Einstein.

There is one father, and one teacher, and he is not Paul. He was causing mischief in being such a pretender.

wow…remind me to never take your comments or questions seriously.

 

[geometer]

wow…remind me to never take your comments or questions seriously.

Are you sure that you are not an agnostic?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Christalone is totally right!! We are saved by faith. Works is just a by product of our faith

Where in scripture do the inspired writers speak of good works as merely a byproduct of faith?

I think the correct conclusion to draw is that we are saved by grace through faith. But the underlying question that Christalone has not addressed is what he means when he says “faith” saves. What is saving faith in Christ. I’d like to know how Christalone thinks the bible defines saving faith? And I’d like to see the scriptural support. Is it mere belief in Jesus Christ (even the demons believe yet they are not saved)? Or is something more intended (implied) when the scriptures speak of salvation by grace through faith? Is it not more than simple understanding and assent to the teaching of the Gospel? Doesn’t it seem to include the living of one’s life in response to Christ’s saving gospel? Doesn’t saving faith require our response to that grace freely given - by which Christ first gives us salvation and then brings it to pass within each of us by our works once reborn in Him? That seems to be the nature of saving faith; a faith that is working in love. Given that understanding, the result of my own prayerful searching of the Scriptures, it seems to me that the Catholic understanding is more correct.

But in all good conscience I have to say that I think there is lots of truth in the protestant version as well. But I think in the effort of over-emphasizing our powerlessness to attain our own salvation apart from Christ (a concept Catholics fully embrace), the reformed doctrine misses the integral part that works do play in our salvation. Yes, it is correct to say that works alone cannot save. But it simply does violence to the integrity of Scripture to suggest that works play no part at all in our salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Just my two cents. I’m sure the argument and loss of charity will continue at this point.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I don’t think it says the Devil has faith. I think it says even the demons believe and they shudder.

Of course, if all this is true then Satan can not deny the existance of God, he only denies that God’s plan is worth obeying.

Satan and his demons firmly believe in God and the truth of the gospel. They know it all to be true but they reject it as evidenced by their acts of rebellion and their continuing effort to draw people away from the Gospel message. They have no saving faith. They only have belief and rejection. From scripture it seems that the two concepts of mere belief and saving faith are theologically distinguishable. The primary distinction is that saving faith requires an active response by the one who is the receiver of the grace that initiates it… at least that’s the way it seems to me from my reading of scripture. While the protestant person would see that as a confusion of salvation as opposed to sanctification, I see that distinction to be somewhat artificially imposed on the scriptures to support the initial hypothesis that salvation is by faith alone… a reading that in my opinion seems to strain the integrity of certain verses that simply cannot be integrated into such a hypothesis.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. Again, while I see a lot of truths in the protestant formulation, and much room for agreement on the centrality and necessity of Christ for salvation and the utter lack of attaining salvation apart from Him, I also see that there are some failings - loose ends - with the protestant position that simply cannot jibe with the language of scripture. James (cited earlier by others) is one of the key passages that simply explodes the artificiall separation between works and saving faith.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Well you might as well join right in with the rest who claim that protestants have no clue as to what is going on

I’m one Catholic who does not join that chorus. I respect the effort that many protestant Christians put into reading and memorizing scripture and trying hard to answer the Lord’s call with the grace that has been given to them. But it does not mean that because I respect someone’s faith tradition that I have to accede to what I honestly believe is a misunderstanding of some fundamental issues related to salvation doctrine.

I am willing to concede that one can interpret certain scripture passages to support the notion that salvation is by faith alone. But I also think this notion is incorrect because it simply cannot be squared with all of scripture read in context. Add to that 2000 years of Church history that rejects the notion that works have no role in one’s salvation at all, and I think the position is further attenuated, even though there is a lot in the notion that is consistent with Catholic teaching. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Salvation is by grace alone. That without saving faith there is no salvation, and that works are definitely tied to one’s salvation. Where we part ways is when the protestant says one is saved … followed by good works that manifest that salvation; and the Catholic would say salvation is the result of a life lived in faith, a faith that works in love.

Peace,
Robert

P.S. It’s late and I’m going to bed now.

 

[Stouts989]

Where in scripture do the inspired writers speak of good works as merely a byproduct of faith?

I think the correct conclusion to draw is that we are saved by grace through faith. But the underlying question that Christalone has not addressed is what he means when he says “faith” saves. What is saving faith in Christ. I’d like to know how Christalone thinks the bible defines saving faith? And I’d like to see the scriptural support. Is it mere belief in Jesus Christ (even the demons believe yet they are not saved)? Or is something more intended (implied) when the scriptures speak of salvation by grace through faith? Is it not more than simple understanding and assent to the teaching of the Gospel? Doesn’t it seem to include the living of one’s life in response to Christ’s saving gospel? Doesn’t saving faith require our response to that grace freely given - by which Christ first gives us salvation and then brings it to pass within each of us by our works once reborn in Him? That seems to be the nature of saving faith; a faith that is working in love. Given that understanding, the result of my own prayerful searching of the Scriptures, it seems to me that the Catholic understanding is more correct.

But in all good conscience I have to say that I think there is lots of truth in the protestant version as well. But I think in the effort of over-emphasizing our powerlessness to attain our own salvation apart from Christ (a concept Catholics fully embrace), the reformed doctrine misses the integral part that works do play in our salvation. Yes, it is correct to say that works alone cannot save. But it simply does violence to the integrity of Scripture to suggest that works play no part at all in our salvation by grace through faith in Christ.

Just my two cents. I’m sure the argument and loss of charity will continue at this point.

Peace,
Robert

Hey Robert,

In your post you just explained works as a byproduct.

Doesn’t it seem to include the living of one’s life in response to Christ’s saving gospel? Doesn’t saving faith require our response to that grace freely given - by which** Christ first gives us salvation** and then brings it to pass within each of us by our works once reborn in Him?

Scripture seems pretty clear to me that our works are a product of the Holy Spirit working in our lives due to the saving Grace of God through Jesus Christ. We bare good fruit because we are now alive in Christ.

As I’ve shared in an earlier post (you might have missed it) We are justified by faith alone, as Paul writes so clearly in his letters to the Romans, but our faith is justified by our works which is what James is talking about in James 2.

Also you’re under the false belief that Reformed Theology teaches that works has no part in Salvation. Works has no part in our being saved, but is a necessary component to a saving faith, because of the work of the Holy Spirit working in us.

We’re not saved by works, but the faith that saves has works.

 

[Good_Fella]

Christalone;5325000

James 2:24, not by faith alone

The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, “What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt. It is empty of life and action. He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn’t any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions. Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God. James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, “and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’” If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.

You missed James 2, 18:

Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

Our justification that James is referring to is before God, not before men. Faith and works are distinct but must act together in order for one to be justified. There is no cause for salvation or any reason to receive a heavenly reward if someone performs corporal works of mercy just to show that he has faith in Christ and is assured of the salvation he seeks by performing acts of charity in faith. Paul speaks of a faith that justifies us by working through love (Gal 5:6). Faith cannot be divorced from love.

Faith initially justifies us, but good works done out of love perfect and complete our justification. We are justified by faith and good works acting together. James warns us that the failure of doing good works (out of genuine love) is a sin. Sin can cost us our salvation if unrepented of. So good works done in grace are absolutely necessary for our salvation together with faith: our free cooperation with God’s grace. Works must be done in faith, not outside of faith to merit our salvation; good works done in God’s grace, as in the case of Abraham’s free act of love and obedience towards God.

So for one to know the right thing to do (a true lively faith ) and does not do it, it is a sin.
*James 4, 17 *

Faith alone does not save. And our justification is before God. Salvation comes from God who rewards those who freely and obediently respond to his will in mutual love (cf. Jas 2:14).

Isn’t the act of repentance just that - an act? And isn’t one saved unless he repents by putting his faith in God’s mercy and forgiveness. The person who refuses to repent absolutely has no faith. He is not suffering from a bad faith. James could not possibly be drawing a distinction between a true and a false faith. A false faith is a contradiction in terms. The apostle means either you have an incomplete faith or a faith completed and perfected by good works done in the system of grace. If David had refused to repent out of a lack of faith - in a state of despair not unlike that which Judas experienced - he would have forfeited his salvation by sinning against the Holy Spirit.

David’s faith was rendered imperfect the moment he sinned against God in spite of his faith which was restored to its fullness and perfection the moment he sincerely repented of his sin. His free act of repentance made him righteous and just before God. Justice is the cardinal virtue that gives human beings what is due to them. We are just if we do what we must do in accord with the will of God.

“He from the essence of the Father, nor is the Son again Son according to essence, but in consequence of virtue, as we who are called sons by grace.”
St. Athanasius (A.D. 351)

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Shannon9791]

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase “faith alone” occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
2. Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
3. Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
4. Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
5. Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
6. Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
7. Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
10. Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
11. Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
12. Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

I think one of the biggest confusions our non-Catholic brethen have is that they think we Catholics believe we’re buying a stairway to Heaven. In your explanation of the second chapter of James you said that James says one should have a faith that is alive. What better way to have a faith thats alive than by doing good things? What gets me is that you quote Romans, and that’s fine, but how many times throughout the gospels did Jesus tell people that they had to do something, perform a work, to get to the kingdom. He told the rich man to sell all he owns and follow him. He told people numerous times things they had to do, in addition to having faith. Why do you discount things Jesus said for things Paul said?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hey Robert,

In your post you just explained works as a byproduct.

Then perhaps you need to explain what you mean when you use the term “byproduct.” My understanding is that a byproduct is a secondary and unintended result of a process. What I attempted to describe is a lifelong process of salvation, in which good works done in and through Jesus Christ are a necessary part. If one has saving faith, one also has good works. One cannot have one without the other - but both are necessary. Works are not merely an outward sign of saving grace… they are the necessary response to that grace.

Stouts989:

Scripture seems pretty clear to me that our works are a product of the Holy Spirit working in our lives due to the saving Grace of God through Jesus Christ. We bare good fruit because we are now alive in Christ.

I would say that good works are the result of our loving response to the saving grace of God. We’re not that far apart here.

Stouts989:

As I’ve shared in an earlier post (you might have missed it) We are justified by faith alone, as Paul writes so clearly in his letters to the Romans, but our faith is justified by our works which is what James is talking about in James 2.

I think that is a very strained reading of what has been written in James. I also disagree that Romans speaks clearly about “faith alone.” I think Paul speaks about faith as necessary for salvation… and we both agree on that. But Paul’s letter to the Romans is not the entirety of Scripture, so what is written there must be understood within the light of all of what Scripture is telling us… It is NOT by faith alone that we are saved.

Stouts989:

Also you’re under the false belief that Reformed Theology teaches that works has no part in Salvation. Works has no part in our being saved, but is a necessary component to a saving faith, because of the work of the Holy Spirit working in us.

You are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit within us, and the good works that we do in Christ out of love for him, which are pleasing to God. What I believe from my own study of reformed theology (and I concede this may not be correct in every circle of protestantism) is that there is a false separation between salvation (by faith alone) and sanctification (by good works). I don’t think the scriptures teach such a separation. I think the process of salvation and sanctification is one unified and real transformation that occurs because of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ… that faith becomes saving faith by being an active faith that works in love.

Stouts989:

We’re not saved by works, but the faith that saves has works.

I agree that we are not saved by works apart from faith. But by the same token faith without works is not saving faith. Both are necessary for salvation, and salvation is not attained apart from works that arise from active faith and love of God.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Stouts989]

Then perhaps you need to explain what you mean when you use the term “byproduct.” My understanding is that a byproduct is a secondary and unintended result of a process. What I attempted to describe is a lifelong process of salvation, in which good works done in and through Jesus Christ are a necessary part. If one has saving faith, one also has good works. One cannot have one without the other - but both are necessary. Works are not merely an outward sign of saving grace… they are the necessary response to that grace.

I would say that good works are the result of our loving response to the saving grace of God. We’re not that far apart here.

I think that is a very strained reading of what has been written in James. I also disagree that Romans speaks clearly about “faith alone.” I think Paul speaks about faith as necessary for salvation… and we both agree on that. But Paul’s letter to the Romans is not the entirety of Scripture, so what is written there must be understood within the light of all of what Scripture is telling us… It is NOT by faith alone that we are saved.

You are confusing the work of the Holy Spirit within us, and the good works that we do in Christ out of love for him, which are pleasing to God. What I believe from my own study of reformed theology (and I concede this may not be correct in every circle of protestantism) is that there is a false separation between salvation (by faith alone) and sanctification (by good works). I don’t think the scriptures teach such a separation. I think the process of salvation and sanctification is one unified and real transformation that occurs because of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ… that faith becomes saving faith by being an active faith that works in love.

I agree that we are not saved by works apart from faith. But by the same token faith without works is not saving faith. Both are necessary for salvation, and salvation is not attained apart from works that arise from active faith and love of God.

Peace,
Robert

I think the notion that salvation is a process is probably where the biggest difference is between the two views on salvation. The rest just seems to be word play.

I don’t think the Bible teaches that we can lose our salvation once we are saved though. The security of the elect and their justification before God is a promise from God.

Just like Jesus promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. I also believe this applies to our salvation, because Jesus says He will lose none (referring to His sheep).

Just as we see false teachers and doctrines within the church of Jesus…the church hasn’t completely failed in spreading the truth of the Gospel.

Just as sin is still a part of our everyday life…it hasn’t caused us to completely fail and lose the promise of God of salvation. I think 1 Peter 1 and 1 John 2 sheds some light on this.

Just as the church is protected by God…as are we.

From what I’ve seen and read most of the issues about salvation between catholics and protestants is because of ignorance on both parties to what the official stance is on salvation and also among protestants churches and the variations on the view of salvation. Its rather crazy and unsettling. The main reason I’m here is to try to eliminate as much ignorance on my part.

From Sola Fide though, I understand it as the works only come after we are saved. We are not saved by works, or a partition; works and faith.

God knows if we are saved our not…he chose us in the first place. We don’t need to prove to Him that we are saved with our works, He knows. Though we are rewarded in heaven by what we do with what God has granted us. Our works are a sign to believes and non-believers of the regenerate work of the Holy Spirit within us. A sign of a true and saving faith.

Justified by faith and our faith is justified by our works.

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

If God credited Abraham as righteous, or right in the sight of God, because of his belief. Then Abraham is saved from the rightful judgement of God…no? And this happened while circumcised?..no, while uncircumcised!

Praise God!

 

[Lawrence_Petrus]

In a sense both sides of this issue are right. On the one hand, Protestants seem to depend only on Romans 10, and Catholics depend on Matthew 25. If you understand Faith to mean a trust or confidence in Jesus and His death and resurrection that we have achieved righteousness. That’s the easy part. But clearly Matthew 25 sets more standards for being saved and it entails action beyond mere belief. "For I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink. . ."I was hungry and you gave me to eat., . . " Attached to these injunctions are certain sanctions that will follow if we ignore the needs of our fellow man., and we will face eternal punishment. Couple this with Matthew 22: 37- 40 and you have the Catholic view of salvation. What is significant about this is that in loving God and our fellow man, we are also saving ourselves and our true meaning as people of God. We save our meaning and our dignity. For it is in loving, we are most like God, for God is Love. Read the Gospel of John.

From the early centuries, the Church understood this in building hospitals, providing soup kitchens, provision for the homeless, shelters for abused women and children, and on and on in the countless numbers of charities sponsored by the Church to this day.