Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

[fred_conty]

Revelation 17, 11-13,15

"Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life.

The dead were judged according to their deeds, <<<<=====

by what was written in the scrolls.
The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades, gave up their dead.

All the dead were judged according to their deeds. <<<<=======

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire."

 

[Cathoholic]

Excerpt from CCC 2744 Prayer is a vital necessity. . . . . Those who pray are certainly saved; those who do not pray are certainly damned.40

 

[Cathoholic]

Christidiscipl1.

I want to clarify a few things after re-reading this thread as I see you listed yourself as a non-Catholic. I do not want you walking away from this thread confused.

Baptism isn’t a substitute for supernatural faith, hope and charity.

Baptism is the SOURCE of supernatural faith, hope, and charity (the “theological virtues” also called the “supernatural virtues”). Supernatural faith, hope, and charity are infused into us at the time of our Baptism.

And we could never merit or earn this great gift of God to us. Baptism and our justification that flows forth from it, is purely a gratuitous gift of God.

Faith is ALWAYS tied to Baptism.

CCC 1226b . . . . Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith . . .

Faith has a natural “belief” type of aspect, but there is ALSO (in a saving faith) an element that is beyond a mere natural belief that we can never get to on our own (and need God’s help to achieve).

Faith has a natural human dimension and faith has a supernatural dimension too.

Faith is a human act but faith is a superhuman Divine grace too.

There is a natural and supernatural aspect to a saving faith.

The Catechism puts it this way . . . .

**III. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF FAITH **

**Faith is a grace **

CCC 153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Faith is a human act

CCC 154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

It is not a “Baptism” versus “faith, hope, and charity” motif.

It is a supernatural faith, hope, and charity situation BECAUSE we are Baptized.

Supernatural faith, hope, and charity (“love”) ARE graces (that’s WHY they are called “supernatural”).

Excerpt from CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification . . . enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, **and to love him **through the theological virtues; . . . Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

And this DOES suffice for our salvation; that is true.

Baptism results in forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins.
Baptism remits all punishment for sin (up to that point).
In a newly Baptized person, nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God.

But once we become children of God, we have duties that come with these gifts (see CCC 900,1932 and 2087 for example).

Duties to continue or to persevere in these virtues (according to our state in life). We must remain faithful to the “demands” of our Baptism as CCC 1274 reminds us (but notice there are “demands” that flow from our Baptism).

CCC 1254a For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. . . .

The council of Trent talks about the need to be further justified by quoting Revelation 22 saying, “He that is just, let him be justified still.”

Knowingly, willingly committed grave sin, or “mortal sin” IS the only impediment to our Baptismal gifts keeping us from Heaven.

The problem is, if we don’t persevere in our faith, that in and of itself IS mortal sin (assuming we understand what we are doing and willingly reject faith). . . .

Continued . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continuation . . .

Faith

The problem is, if we don’t persevere in our faith, that in and of itself IS mortal sin (assuming we understand what we are doing and willingly reject faith).

As CCC 161 and 162 warn us), we cannot be pleasing to God without faith. That’s WHY faith IS necessary for our salvation.

Hope

Also, if we don’t persevere in supernatural hope, this too is mortal sin. That is despair. This despair or “anti-hope” is WHY Judas lost not only his body but also his soul. In this sense supernatural hope IS necessary for our salvation.

That’s likely WHY St. Paul can say in Romans 8:24 “For in this hope we were saved.”

Charity (“Love”)

If we don’t persevere in supernatural charity, this too is mortal sin. That’s WHY works are necessary (again for those who can).

Which works?

Everyone is different. Catholics don’t look at this as a fearful checklist. “Slaves” do that.

Justification is not reducible down to “forgiveness of sins”. There is more.

Sanctification is part of our justification and is an ongoing process (“Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man”—see CCC 1989).

But all these necessary works are done IN GRACE (and need to be done IN GRACE). Charity animates these works. (This post may be of help on this point)

Protestants often will object to the need for charity (and works) and will say, “I do good works because of my faith”.

That’s great, but you better be doing good works on account of your grace of charity too otherwise it is not good enough.

That’s WHY Abu can quote Fr. Echert saying: “Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace – that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6)”.

That is the above principle lived out. That’s WHY St. Paul can tell us, if we have faith to move mountains, but have not charity, we are nothing and have nothing in 1st Corinthians 13.

CCC 1826 “If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, "if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing."103 Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: "So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity."104

CCC 1827 The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”;105 it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love.

Many weddings have some of this verse in them . . .

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b, 13 2 . . . and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

And yes Baptized babies CAN and DO have supernatural faith.

We even see John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb as Luke 1:15 reminds us of (this should tell us something).

Infants typically cannot DEMONSTRATE supernatural virtues, but they CAN POSSESS this supernatural faith, hope, and charity. The supernatural virtues are supersensible.

The Baptismal candidate has a natural faith (his own belief in the case of a catechumen or his parents faith in the case of an infant).

Then upon Baptism, the infants receive the graces of supernatural faith, hope, and charity.

CCC 1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

CCC 1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

CCC 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

CCC 1250b . . . . The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

So in answer to your question: Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too? . . .

. . The answer is we are saved by the graces given to us of God given at our Baptism including faith, hope, and charity, and we must persevere in those virtues we were given.

If you want more information you can go to the CCC quotes above and look at the footnotes (they will refer you to the salient verses in Scripture) or ask and someone here will likely try to accommodate you.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

My definition: We are grace Fully saved by grace which and IF it continues THROUGH "God willed " works unto death.

Grace is a gift of God. God lets us cooperate with grace if we do not raise an obstacle to it.

Grace flows. It is not a discrete or instantaneous only event.

Grace flows through “God willed works” which God wants and wills us to do. God lets us cooperate in the doing of His willed works–which are not man initiated works or “works of the law” which do not save.

If God’s grace is continuing to flow through us at time of death we will be saved and will not go to Hell.

Grace can be interrupted at any time and if interrupted at time of death then we will not be saved and will go to Hell.

A state of Grace means that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are making their abode in our souls. They can still be in our soul if we venialy sin, but not if we mortally sin.

If at time of time of death if we have venial sins on our souls–or if we have a debt of temporal punishment that needs to be paid then that debt is paid in purgatory and we become perfect so as to enter heaven.

One can go straight to heaven if there is no debt of personal punishment to be made.

Grace can not be ALONE–it is always connected to “God willed works” and it is not an instantaneous only discrete moment in time–it starts at an instantaneous moment but FLOWS from there through “God willed works” perfecting us in love.

We are not saved by grace or works or grace and works but grace flowing through God works perfecting us in love so that we eventually see God face to face in Heaven.

 

[styrgwillidar]

We are redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice and the grace He has bestowed on us. Whether we choose to join him in heaven is different. We need to obey the greatest commandment- To Love God with all our heart, our soul and our mind. Christ said if we love Him we will keep His commandments. He also told us how our love for Him will be judged:

The Judgment of the Nations.*
31f “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32g and all the nations* will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35h For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

37Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40i And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41* j Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42k For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

44* Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The goats are condemned not for sins of commission, but for sins of omission. As St. James said, faith without works is dead. We can not say we love God and have faith without the works that grace and faith inspires.

 

[Ignatius]

Need some info

What does the Bible say?
James 2:17-10
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[JonNC]

Need some info

We are saved by grace. We access grace via faith, which is also a gift of grace. Freed from sin, death, and the devil by grace, we are called to care for the least of God’s children.

From a Lutheran perspective: Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Jon

 

[PoorKnight]

Here’s an interesting way to look at it:

After God set up the system by which Noah was to be saved from the flood… Did Noah still have to build the Ark in order to be saved or could he have just intellectually assented to God and the AFTER he was saved by the flood, spend 120 years building an Ark out of gratitude?

God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

 

[JonNC]

Here’s an interesting way to look at it:

After God set up the system by which Noah was to be saved from the flood… Did Noah still have to build the Ark in order to be saved or could he have** just intellectually assented **to God and the AFTER he was saved by the flood, spend 120 years building an Ark out of gratitude?

God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

I suspect there are groups who have a theology of mere intellectual assent. The Lutheran confessions condemned those who actually opposed good works in those times, but I don’t know of any today. Perhaps you know of one?

Jon

 

[Philthy]

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by the Grace of Christian Baptism, and by NOTHING else CCC 1263], (Our Baptismal Grace is restored, if necessary, by Sacramental Confession CCC 1446]).

One question that immediately presents itself, David, is whether the restoration of Baptismal Grace by “Sacramental Confession” constitutes a work or not. That is the OP: is Sacramental Confession “faith alone” or is it a work - or both? I would say that since it requires volition on our part to show up at a time and place and partake in the Sacrament that it has dimensions of both faith and works.

If we die in a state of Grace (meaning our Baptismal Grace has been preserved or restored) we will attain salvation. NOTHING else is necessary, and any Catholic who believes otherwise does not understand the Doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding the economy of salvation. Nobody has ever cited actual Catholic doctrine to the contrary.

I find it hard to believe that any Catholic would argue whether someone in a state of Grace at the point of death will attain salvation. It is, after all, the definition of being in a state of grace.

We are not saved by faith OR works.

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

We are not saved by our own personal faith, works, beliefs, or anything else. We are saved by the Grace of Christian Baptism, and by nothing else.

I’ll quibble with you - again - as others have done. We are saved through all of those means because they initiate, perpetuate and strengthen our state of grace. Our state of grace - except in very rare circumstances - requires that we choose to perpetuate it and strengthen it. We cannot do this on our own, but we can choose to reject doing it.** CCC #847 **"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved."

If we knowingly and voluntarily forfeit this Grace through mortal sin, it can be restored by Sacramental Confession, and by nothing else.

This, of course, is heretical. God can forgive anyone he wishes and is not bound by the Sacraments in doing so. I think what you meant to say is that God has freely chosen to be bound to forgive us through Sacramental Confession.

Faith, works, or beliefs cannot attain salvation, and they cannot restore it if we lose it through mortal sin.

But they can PRESERVE it whereas failure to have faith, *failure to *do good works and failure to believe can constitute mortal sin. "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved."
And this is where your answer fails to address the OP. “…do we need works, too?” And the answer to that is, “Yes, usually we do”. Unless one were to die after infant Baptism and before the age or reason then they will be exposed to the possibility of committing a sin of omission. A sin of omission is the FAILURE TO DO SOMETHING that you know that you should do. We confess them every Sunday: I confess to Almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned…in what I have done AND WHAT I HAVE FAILED TO DO…"Sound familiar? If a sin of omission involves grave matter and is done knowingly and freely, then the FAILURE TO ACT JUSTLY leads to the loss of sanctifying grace. So, again, does that mean we need to “do something”? And the answer, again, is “Yes we do”. The reason the Sacrament of Reconciliation exists is because people fall into mortal sin. The reason it is required at least once a year is because people fall into mortal sin with somewhat regularity.

It is heresy to suppose that we must have something MORE than the Grace of Christian Baptism, intact at the time of our death, in order to be saved.

Correct - but it’s far from heresy to recognize that - for the vast majority of us - having it intact at the time of our death will have required that we acted - by grace through faith - in cooperation with God’s will to maintain the precious gift of grace we received. It is also no heresy to describe this reality as “needing to do works”.

I have argued this point many times on this Forum (it’s almost a full-time job), and I have never lost.

I disagree David. You have lost this here and you lost it the last time you and I discussed it. Do you not remember reducing yourself to suggesting - speculating wildly, actually - that mortal sin was rare and therefore my argument regarding sins of omission was therefore invalid? I do. You chose to ignore the fact that we are required to go to Sacramental Confession annually and had no explanation as to why we must if, in fact, mortal sin were rare. You also had no explanation as to why, in the Lords Prayer the forgiveness of sins (a requirement of salvation) is conditioned upon something we must do in act: forgiving others. I’ve read enough of your posts to know you are a knowledgeable, charitable and reasonable. I presumed at the conclusion of our last discussion that it was merely a matter of semantics and I still suspect that is the case to a degree. But the fact of the matter is, that the possibility of committing a mortal sin by failing to act exists and at the very least you should be able to agree that sometimes we need to act in order to preserve the state of grace. That being the case the answer to the OP is clearly more nuanced than your presentation of it above.

 

[JonNC]

=Philthy;12657683]One question that immediately presents itself, David, is whether the restoration of Baptismal Grace by “Sacramental Confession” constitutes a work or not. That is the OP: is Sacramental Confession “faith alone” or is it a work - or both? I would say that since it requires volition on our part to show up at a time and place and partake in the Sacrament that it has dimensions of both faith and works.

From the Council of Orange

. Canon 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

I would not count it as a work.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

From the Council of Orange

Quote:
. "Canon 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13)."

I would not count it as a work.

Jon

And yet this is qualified and clarified further by the Catechism:

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42**

 

[JonNC]

And yet this is qualified and clarified further by the Catechism:

**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it**; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

And I would not disagree with the ability of man to reject grace.

Jon

 

[Ignatius]

We are saved by God’s free gift of Grace. But what do we do after that?

What does the Bible say?
James 2:17-10
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? __________________

 

[fhansen]

And I would not disagree with the ability of man to reject grace.

Jon

Alright, so then we’d agree that grace and salvation aren’t forced upon us; our response is required. We cannot make that response without grace and yet we can still choose not to respond to it, to God’s calling us.

 

[PoorKnight]

I suspect there are groups who have a theology of mere intellectual assent. The Lutheran confessions condemned those who actually opposed good works in those times, but I don’t know of any today. Perhaps you know of one?

Jon

I wasn’t targeting confessional Lutheranism. Yes there are groups who state that a mere intellectual assent - their definition of “faith” - is all that is needed for salvation. I’ve run into plenty of them. They call themselves “Protestant”, “Baptist”, “Evangelical”, “Bible Christian”, “Presbyterian”, “Lutheran” and a host of others. I have a “Fundamentalist non-Denominational” (how does that work?) friend who says he is excoriated by fellow church goers for “relying on his good works for salvation” when he speaks of donating money, or doing some other sort of charitable work.

So yes, that is the understanding amongst many non-Catholics. Glad to see you disagree.

God Bless,
Poor Knight for Christ and His Church

 

[Philthy]

From the Council of Orange

I would not count it as a work.

Jon

Is it an act of volition?
Does it require the exercise of free will?
Does it require the capacity to act?
Does choosing it represent a moral choice?

To be honest, I generally wouldn’t either. That’s merely semantics however and does not speak to the bigger question contained in the OP. The answer to that question remains, “Yes, we need works also to avoid sins of omission(ie neglecting the poor, the hungry, etc) and thereby preserve our state of Grace.”

 

[steve_b]

Is it an act of volition?
Does it require the exercise of free will?
Does it require the capacity to act?
Does choosing it represent a moral choice?

To be honest, I generally wouldn’t either. That’s merely semantics however and does not speak to the bigger question contained in the OP. The answer to that question remains, “Yes, we need works also to avoid sins of omission(ie neglecting the poor, the hungry, etc) and thereby preserve our state of Grace.”

I would just add,

“Charity” covers a whole lot of things
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=charity&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[gachristian]

If you don’t mind me jumping in on this.

In the Holy Scripture Paul says in Ephesians 2:8 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
However James says, James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I have heard many in different spiritual conditions say that this is proof that the Bible is contradicting itself or there is a difference in that one is talking about works and one is talking about good works. The same Greek word “epyov” (sorry this is as Greek as I can make it look) is used in both scriptures. I don’t think there is a difference between works and good works.
My interpretation of the two scriptures is this: we are saved through God’s Grace by our faith in Him Jesus and what he did on a cross. What James explains is going beyond simple faith and putting it to work. I believe that our faith in Jesus and the salvation He give us gives us the power through the Holy Spirit to do amazing works whether it is working a leper camp or gathering clothing for a clothing shelter or helping by giving to what God has directed you to give.
We as humans do not deserve God’s grace but he chose to offer it to us and salvation through the Blood of Jesus. Works for me are a manifestation of that salvation and sanctification that can only come come God.