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steve_b
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Jump in anytime
g:
There is a difference between works and good works in Paul’s teaching.
going back to Eph 2:8 + 9-10 as well
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Paul makes a distinction here, between works, and good works. So what are “works” that Paul is talking about. as opposed to good works?
- Galatians 2:16 in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified
- Galatians 3:2 works of law
- Galatians 3:5 works of law
- Galatians 3:10 works of law
We both agree Paul says, we are NOT saved
- by ourselves
- nor by doing works of law
“for we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do”
To test that, All one has to ask then,
- how important is it for God’s creation to do what it was created to do?
- And what happens when a creation of God doesn’t do what it is created to do?
And for human souls who don’t do what they are created to do? Matthew 25:44-46
Therefore salvation is apart from works of law but NOT apart from good works
When Jesus crowns our good works He is really crowning the work He has done and is doing in us. Hebrews 13:21 & Philippians 2:13.
g:
James is saying faith without good works is dead. And a dead faith won’t save a person
g:
Ergo they are necessary for salvation
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gachristian. You cited Ephesians 2:8 (naturally without verse 9-10).
You also neglected to differentiate grace works vrs. “works” in the context of works on your own power. St. Paul does seem to contrast these differing types of “works” (works on our own vrs. grace works or God working in us and through us).
EPHESIANS 3:20a 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us . . .
Ephesians 2:8 does not mean what I think that you think it means–that ANY and ALL works do NOT figure into our justification. (If I am wrong, please clarify).
The Ephesians themselves were upbraided by our Lord Jesus for their “works” ('I know your works”).
And since their “works” were not consistent with Christianity that was expected of them (you have abandoned the love you had at first), Jesus warned them to repent and “do the works” they did initially.
So evidently this abandoning of their “love” had something to do with their “works”. Recall Jesus said “if you love me you will keep my commandments.”
And if the Ephesians DIDN’T do these works . . . . then what?
Fortunately the Holy Spirit through St. John tells us.
REVELATION 2:1a, 2-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: . . . 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Notice Jesus DOESN’T say this:
NOT REVELATION 2:1a, 5 (Phantom Verse) 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: . . . 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, you will be saved anyway because works don’t matter with regards to your justification because you are saved by faith ALONE. You SHOULD do those works, but you don’t have to.
So you are going to have to say having their “lampstands” removed is AOK concerning their justification? . . . or something else?
In a related topic, Jim talks of some differing types of “law” here too and this is a fine post.
You also neglected to differentiate grace works vrs. “works” in the context of works on your own power. St. Paul does seem to contrast these differing types of “works” (works on our own vrs. grace works or God working in us and through us).
EPHESIANS 3:20a 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us . . .
Ephesians 2:8 does not mean what I think that you think it means–that ANY and ALL works do NOT figure into our justification. (If I am wrong, please clarify).
The Ephesians themselves were upbraided by our Lord Jesus for their “works” ('I know your works”).
And since their “works” were not consistent with Christianity that was expected of them (you have abandoned the love you had at first), Jesus warned them to repent and “do the works” they did initially.
So evidently this abandoning of their “love” had something to do with their “works”. Recall Jesus said “if you love me you will keep my commandments.”
And if the Ephesians DIDN’T do these works . . . . then what?
Fortunately the Holy Spirit through St. John tells us.
REVELATION 2:1a, 2-5 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: . . . 2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.
Notice Jesus DOESN’T say this:
NOT REVELATION 2:1a, 5 (Phantom Verse) 1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: . . . 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, you will be saved anyway because works don’t matter with regards to your justification because you are saved by faith ALONE. You SHOULD do those works, but you don’t have to.
So you are going to have to say having their “lampstands” removed is AOK concerning their justification? . . . or something else?
In a related topic, Jim talks of some differing types of “law” here too and this is a fine post.
J
James82
Guest
This canard again…
I had a conversation with a Baptist friend of mine on said subject, went something like this…
"Do you see your average Catholic digging ditches and ranting about how these ‘works’ will save them? Or your run of the mill faithful Catholic with a frown on his face as he helps the poor, only so that he knows he is chalking up brownie points in heaven?
Likewise, do you see your friendly neighbourhood Protestant running around shouting “Praise the Lord!” and when asked to do a favor rants about how he is saved and he need not help?"
We actually both had a good laugh. In my experience, with the exception of one person (an angry fundamentalist) I have never ran into either examples.
Maybe others have though…
I had a conversation with a Baptist friend of mine on said subject, went something like this…
"Do you see your average Catholic digging ditches and ranting about how these ‘works’ will save them? Or your run of the mill faithful Catholic with a frown on his face as he helps the poor, only so that he knows he is chalking up brownie points in heaven?
Likewise, do you see your friendly neighbourhood Protestant running around shouting “Praise the Lord!” and when asked to do a favor rants about how he is saved and he need not help?"
We actually both had a good laugh. In my experience, with the exception of one person (an angry fundamentalist) I have never ran into either examples.
Maybe others have though…
C
Cathoholic
Guest
James82.
You appropriately stated (in post 45):
The Attack On Works
When I hear the anti-Catholic preachers preaching against “works”, usually sooner or later it comes around to denying the Sacraments.
These are the “works” that tend to get the deniers the most upset—the Sacraments.
Also beware of the minimizing of any concept of “works” so as to remove them from the equation of salvation (for those who CAN). Works are meaningless to these people (in regards to salvation).
You SHOULD do good works, but you don’t NEED to do them in the power of the Holy Spirit (these minimizers or outright deniers say).
This is a common inappropriate attitude (usually but not limited to Protestants).
In another more practical sense, the sins against the supernatural virtue of Charity for example can be subtle as well.
How murder begins with seemingly harmless (to the onlooker) hate (Matthew 5:22, 1st John 3:15) for example.
A “hate” relationship with your own wife can start out with unforgiveness, that leads to divorce, that may lead to even bigger problems.
Jesus likewise warns us about the sin of unforgivnesss.
Let’s go back to Matthew 6 and see what Jesus says to people who have God as their FATHER (!), people who have a family relationship with God.
MATTHEW 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(Jesus is addressing people who have God as their “Father” here. So much for once saved always saved.)
If we don’t forgive sins we won’t be forgiven either!
And Jesus is addressing people who already have God as THEIR FATHER – People WHO ARE SAVED!
Unforgiveness can be a sin against charity.
So no people are not ranting about how these ‘works’ such as ditch digging will save them or Protestants ranting about how he is saved and refusing, when asked to do a favor.
But the attack on works is much more subtle and pernicious I believe.
**
Denial of “works” often focuses upon . . . . **
You appropriately stated (in post 45):
And although this is true and a good point (and I agree in principle), I think the attack on “works” tends to be much more subtle and dangerous.
The Attack On Works
When I hear the anti-Catholic preachers preaching against “works”, usually sooner or later it comes around to denying the Sacraments.
These are the “works” that tend to get the deniers the most upset—the Sacraments.
Also beware of the minimizing of any concept of “works” so as to remove them from the equation of salvation (for those who CAN). Works are meaningless to these people (in regards to salvation).
You SHOULD do good works, but you don’t NEED to do them in the power of the Holy Spirit (these minimizers or outright deniers say).
This is a common inappropriate attitude (usually but not limited to Protestants).
In another more practical sense, the sins against the supernatural virtue of Charity for example can be subtle as well.
How murder begins with seemingly harmless (to the onlooker) hate (Matthew 5:22, 1st John 3:15) for example.
A “hate” relationship with your own wife can start out with unforgiveness, that leads to divorce, that may lead to even bigger problems.
Jesus likewise warns us about the sin of unforgivnesss.
Let’s go back to Matthew 6 and see what Jesus says to people who have God as their FATHER (!), people who have a family relationship with God.
MATTHEW 6:14-15 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
(Jesus is addressing people who have God as their “Father” here. So much for once saved always saved.)
If we don’t forgive sins we won’t be forgiven either!
And Jesus is addressing people who already have God as THEIR FATHER – People WHO ARE SAVED!
Unforgiveness can be a sin against charity.
So no people are not ranting about how these ‘works’ such as ditch digging will save them or Protestants ranting about how he is saved and refusing, when asked to do a favor.
But the attack on works is much more subtle and pernicious I believe.
**
Denial of “works” often focuses upon . . . . **
- Denying (at least some of) the Sacraments
- Removing “works” altogether from the equation of salvation
- Ignoring subtle not readily observable sins that tend to escalate
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
By not committing any (unconfessed) mortal sins.
Mortal sin requires complete knowledge of the mortally sinful nature of the act, and freewill consent of the sin.
J
James82
Guest
Hi Cathoholic,
I really appreciate the long and well thought out reply. I cannot but totally agree with you. I suppose in my experiences with Protestants they aren’t of the ‘hardline’ that are commonly experienced in United States. The only thing that comes close to this was a ‘Free Presbyterian’ (see Paisleyite) who was absolutely hateful off all things Catholic. We really had some set-to’s over scriptural interpretation. The majority of Protestants I have dealt with are attending Baptist ecclesial communities, but not necessarily Baptist by confession. Many of them partake in a lot of ecumenical activities with the Church as well; mostly regarding helping addicts and the poor.
But I wholeheartedly agree that ‘good’ heresy (if it can be so called) is incredibly devious and masterful with the slight of hand; otherwise it wouldn’t be a successful heresy!
Cheers
I
Ignatius
Guest
We are saved by God’s free gift of Grace. But what do we do after that?
What does the Bible say?
James 2:17-10
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
What does the Bible say?
James 2:17-10
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
Does that require us to do anything? I.e. in order to avoid committing a mortal sin of omission – am I required to do something and would that be considered a work?
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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gachristian
Guest
In further research, in using Bible dictionaries and other tool, I see the that the word for work or works is ergon. It is also often defined as deeds or labor.
ergon; from a prim. vb. ἔρδω erdō (to do); work: - action (1), behavior (1), deed (13), deeds (52), doing (1), effectual (1), labor (1), result (1), task (1), what…done (1), work (34), works (62).
To determine what kind of works they are they are either modified by an adjective such as good or evil or of the law or you must determine most of the time by the context. God used several people to write the New Testament. First of all obviously Paul did not write James! Secondly you can’t transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law. They are just works. Paul is not saying works of the law in Eph 2:8-9. Ergon is not modified by “of the law”. Galatians is contrasting Salvation by works of the law as useless as compared to faith. Notice good works are not mentioned in Galatians…only faith/belief both for Abraham and us! If good works instead of works of the Law were required he would have surely included that. Jesus says in John 6:47, “Truly truly I say to you, he who believes in me has eternal life.” If good works were also required He surely would have included that!
It is bad hermeneutics to say Paul meant works of the law in Eph 2:8-9. Further notice in verse 10 that he is talking about believers (created in Christ Jesus means those saved by faith are HIS creation) and as HIS we have good works to do that He prepared beforehand that we MIGHT walk in them. We are saved by faith and not works. But Paul wants to insure us that works are important for us as believers to do what He has for us to do. 1 Cor 3 (below) tells us that as does James in chapter 2 that good works are important for believers to do but not required for salvation. So to sum up Eph 2:10:
2:10 The result of salvation is that we are His workmanship—the handiwork of God, not of ourselves. A born-again believer is a masterpiece of God. When we think of the raw materials He has to work with, His achievement is all the more remarkable. Indeed, this masterpiece is nothing less than a new creation through union with Christ, for “if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2Co_5:17).
And the object of this new creation is found in the phrase, for good works. While it is true that we are not saved by good works, it is equally true that we are saved for good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, but because we are saved.
Basically James’ point is very simple. James is just trying to tell believers that our faith should result in good works. The context in James 2 is very obviously good works and it is addressed to brethren (believers). Galatians 3 is a different use of the word. There Paul is contrasting being saved by faith versus being saved by the works of the law. It’s interesting to note that in Galatians 3 Paul says that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith not his works. James says the same thing in James 2:23 too!
ergon; from a prim. vb. ἔρδω erdō (to do); work: - action (1), behavior (1), deed (13), deeds (52), doing (1), effectual (1), labor (1), result (1), task (1), what…done (1), work (34), works (62).
To determine what kind of works they are they are either modified by an adjective such as good or evil or of the law or you must determine most of the time by the context. God used several people to write the New Testament. First of all obviously Paul did not write James! Secondly you can’t transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law. They are just works. Paul is not saying works of the law in Eph 2:8-9. Ergon is not modified by “of the law”. Galatians is contrasting Salvation by works of the law as useless as compared to faith. Notice good works are not mentioned in Galatians…only faith/belief both for Abraham and us! If good works instead of works of the Law were required he would have surely included that. Jesus says in John 6:47, “Truly truly I say to you, he who believes in me has eternal life.” If good works were also required He surely would have included that!
It is bad hermeneutics to say Paul meant works of the law in Eph 2:8-9. Further notice in verse 10 that he is talking about believers (created in Christ Jesus means those saved by faith are HIS creation) and as HIS we have good works to do that He prepared beforehand that we MIGHT walk in them. We are saved by faith and not works. But Paul wants to insure us that works are important for us as believers to do what He has for us to do. 1 Cor 3 (below) tells us that as does James in chapter 2 that good works are important for believers to do but not required for salvation. So to sum up Eph 2:10:
2:10 The result of salvation is that we are His workmanship—the handiwork of God, not of ourselves. A born-again believer is a masterpiece of God. When we think of the raw materials He has to work with, His achievement is all the more remarkable. Indeed, this masterpiece is nothing less than a new creation through union with Christ, for “if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new” (2Co_5:17).
And the object of this new creation is found in the phrase, for good works. While it is true that we are not saved by good works, it is equally true that we are saved for good works. Good works are not the root but the fruit. We do not work in order to be saved, but because we are saved.
Basically James’ point is very simple. James is just trying to tell believers that our faith should result in good works. The context in James 2 is very obviously good works and it is addressed to brethren (believers). Galatians 3 is a different use of the word. There Paul is contrasting being saved by faith versus being saved by the works of the law. It’s interesting to note that in Galatians 3 Paul says that Abraham was declared righteous by his faith not his works. James says the same thing in James 2:23 too!
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fhansen
Guest
James is telling us that faith, alone, is inadequate, that change, real change of heart towards authentic righteousness is required and this change involves being transformed into the image of God, Who is love, and this love expresses itself in a variety of ways, Matt 25:31-46 giving us some good examples. And this is why Paul could say in 1Cor 13, “…if I have faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing”. And Augustine could say, “Without love faith can indeed exist, but avails nothing”. Love produces, by its nature, the obedience and righteousness of Christ, the obedience that Adam forsook. Faith is the beginning, the means to that love, because it’s the means to communion with God, apart from Whom we can do nothing.
S
steve_b
Guest
you can disagree with what is said here #42 but you haven’t refuted what was said there.
When Paul writes
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
- if Paul said in vs 8-9, one is saved by grace through faith and not by good works, is that true?
- If that is true, why would Jesus condemn all those who call Him Lord, yet do NOT do good works? Matthew 25:44-46
- Jesus gave clear teaching on what happens when His creation doesn’t do what it was created to do Matthew 3:10 , Luke 3:9 , Luke 13:7-9 ,
- In Paul’s teaching, works of law have no part in one’s salvation.
- Galatians 2:16 in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified
- That is NOT so for good works. Good works is evidence we have a live faith and not a dead one.
The reason it is NOT apart from good works, when Jesus crowns our good works He is really crowning the work He has done and is doing in us. Hebrews 13:21 & Philippians 2:13.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi David -
Just to reiterate my earlier point regarding sins of omission…
Mortal sin requires complete knowledge of the mortally sinful nature of the act - *or failure to act *- and freewill consent of the sin.
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Philthy
Guest
P
Philthy
Guest
con’d
‘Amen, I say to you, **what you did not do **for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” This is Christ mentioning good works.
In addition, in Matt 6 Christ says -
14* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.h 15But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
Forgiving others is something we do and it is also something that God conditions our own forgiveness upon. If we wish to go to Heaven - our “final” salvation, we need to be forgiven by God. It is, to reiterate my point above regarding “ongoing salvation” something that we are required to *continue to do *throughout our lives.
“…faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Dead faith does not save you bro. It’s very simple and very clear. Your problem is that you have approached each of these sections of Scripture with an erroneous bias and attempted to fit them into your bias rather than hear them and understand them for what they actually say. Choosing to disobey God by ignoring his promptings in your conscience; and through failure to love others (through good works) is a sin so grievous that it allows us to become “separated from Christ” and to “fall from Grace” and - should we die in that state - be separated from him for all eternity.
Are you suggesting that Christ did not mention the necessity of good works in the Gospels? That is preposterous. 2 sections of Scripture that immediately come to mind are Matt 25 where the sheep and the goats are separated by their good works.
‘Amen, I say to you, **what you did not do **for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46l And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” This is Christ mentioning good works.
In addition, in Matt 6 Christ says -
14* If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.h 15But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
Forgiving others is something we do and it is also something that God conditions our own forgiveness upon. If we wish to go to Heaven - our “final” salvation, we need to be forgiven by God. It is, to reiterate my point above regarding “ongoing salvation” something that we are required to *continue to do *throughout our lives.
Have you ever thought about how foolish this sounds? Works are “important” but failure to do them has no eternal consequence? That makes no sense to a person of faith and yet you are preaching it. Why? I think you wish to rationalize what you believe and attempt to conform Scripture to those beliefs.
That’s not at all what James 2 says. It really couldn’t be any clearer, but you approach it with the bias that works don’t matter and then attempt to understand and explain away what is actually there through that bias. How else would you arrive at that conclusion when James starts the section off clearly with the topic at hand:
The question at hand is whether a workless faith can save him - very simple. And the answer?
“…faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” Dead faith does not save you bro. It’s very simple and very clear. Your problem is that you have approached each of these sections of Scripture with an erroneous bias and attempted to fit them into your bias rather than hear them and understand them for what they actually say. Choosing to disobey God by ignoring his promptings in your conscience; and through failure to love others (through good works) is a sin so grievous that it allows us to become “separated from Christ” and to “fall from Grace” and - should we die in that state - be separated from him for all eternity.
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
(sorry for the delayed reply - I started this reply, but changed to a different tab, and never got back to it until now.)
I remember saying that many theologians (and I am not a theologian) speculate that mortal sin is rare, and that this is probably the most contentious topic among modern Catholic theologians (the hang-up has to do with consent). I do not recall ever expressing my own opinion one way or another, as my opinion counts for nothing. If I expressed an opinion, it was by mistake.
The precepts are rules, not doctrines. As such, they can change (and have changed MANY times). As faithful Catholics, we have promised to obey both the rules and doctrines of the Church, so failure to adhere to the precepts could be sinful (and, given sufficient knowledge and consent, mortally sinful). NOT because failure to confess annually is inherently sinful or because it is assumed that every Catholic commits mortal sin at least annually.
AFAIK, I have never been presented with such a situation. I have never committed any act (besides obeying the precepts of the Church) that I thought failure to have acted would have been mortally sinful, and I have never confessed an inaction. Have you?
Hmmm. I think I will send my brother (a priest) an e-mail and ask him how often people confess sins of omission. He can tell me this without breaking the Seal.
But, even if someone is confronted with such a situation, it is not the act that saves them. It is still the Grace of Baptism (and nothing else), which they had before and after the act. The act would not save him, but it would prevent him from loosing what he already had. It is a subtle but significant difference. We are not saved by works, but we can be condemned by the lack of works.
Well, I don’t remember saying anything of the kind. I would ask you to provide such a link.
I remember saying that many theologians (and I am not a theologian) speculate that mortal sin is rare, and that this is probably the most contentious topic among modern Catholic theologians (the hang-up has to do with consent). I do not recall ever expressing my own opinion one way or another, as my opinion counts for nothing. If I expressed an opinion, it was by mistake.
You cite a precept of the Church. I have cited these in this Forum many times (here, for example).
The precepts are rules, not doctrines. As such, they can change (and have changed MANY times). As faithful Catholics, we have promised to obey both the rules and doctrines of the Church, so failure to adhere to the precepts could be sinful (and, given sufficient knowledge and consent, mortally sinful). NOT because failure to confess annually is inherently sinful or because it is assumed that every Catholic commits mortal sin at least annually.
I’ve always thought that referred to forgiveness of venial sin (which is not a requirement of salvation). I don’t believe that the Church teaches that mortal sin absolved through Sacramental Confession (which IS a requirement for salvation, if we sin mortally) requires any additional disposition on our part to others. And, in fact, I’m quite sure the Church does not teach any such thing.
I’ve acknowledged that here many times. But it would be incorrect to say that works are a requirement of salvation, because not everyone may be presented with an situation where failure to act (and given sufficient knowledge and consent at the time) would be mortally sinful.
AFAIK, I have never been presented with such a situation. I have never committed any act (besides obeying the precepts of the Church) that I thought failure to have acted would have been mortally sinful, and I have never confessed an inaction. Have you?
Hmmm. I think I will send my brother (a priest) an e-mail and ask him how often people confess sins of omission. He can tell me this without breaking the Seal.
But, even if someone is confronted with such a situation, it is not the act that saves them. It is still the Grace of Baptism (and nothing else), which they had before and after the act. The act would not save him, but it would prevent him from loosing what he already had. It is a subtle but significant difference. We are not saved by works, but we can be condemned by the lack of works.
P
PoorKnight
Guest
Wow… so what you’re saying is, even though James 2:24 says “we are saved by works and not by faith alone” what James REALLY meant was we are saved by Faith alone and not by works?
I’ll ask you the same question: In the way God set it up, was it required of Noah to build the ark in order to be saved? Or did God swoop him up after he intellectually assented, then he spent the next 120 years building the ark out of gratitude?
What does the Bible say?
M
MarkInOregon
Guest
I always mention my concern over my failure to do more than I do to help the poor and needy, visit the sick etc. I am not secure enough to believe that when I sit home and watch a football game or a drama–that I may not be committing a sin of omission–I think I waist a lot of time–time that could be better spent, say, serving the poor. Perhaps it doesn’t rise to the level of mortal sin–but I’m not sure and I’m not chancing it. I’m guessing that when I die I am going to wish I spent more time doing things that I don’t do and less time doing the things that I do do. Perhaps it will be easier when we don’t still have kids at home or perhaps I am kidding myself and I should be taking my kids and teaching them–which is now another compounding factor.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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Philthy
Guest
Hi David!
once a YEAR, the Church might be teaching that we are seldom in a state of mortal sin. If such a state were common, the Church ought to require it much more frequently…If mortal sin were so prevalent, I should think the Church ought to have it the other way around…I would argue that this precept indicates that the Church feels that we seldom fall into mortal sin…
My response remains:
Philthy:
disposition on our part to others. And, in fact, I’m quite sure the Church does not teach any such thing.
Failing to forgive someone is a sin. The reasons why failing to do so might constitute mortal sin. If so, it should be confessed, absolved and…rectified through appropriate penance.
I think you’re being a little too rigid in your approach. I can’t improve too much on my previous articulation here:
Philthy:
the state of grace. We both agree. There are, however, mortal sins in the form of works that we may FAIL TO DO that can jeopardize our state of grace and thereby our salvation. (Agreed? Y or N please) And so how do we express this reality? This is where the allegation of semantics comes in.
In my opinion it is a matter of semantics. All of the people who end up in Heaven end up there because they received the grace of justification through the sacrament of Penance and/or the grace of Baptism. That would seem to be the “slam dunk” for the “Others” side. But there is a counterpoint: some of the people who end up in Hell also received the grace of Baptism/Penance… but, in willingly, purposefully choosing love of self over love of God/Neighbor, fell from that state of grace. And it is that falling, based upon their failure to love and not upon their having received Baptismal or Penance grace, that determined their eternal destiny. In recognition of this reality, they choose to articulate that works are “necessary” - for most of us - in order to go to Heaven.
- Some might simply say that good works are “required” of those who have been blessed by God with the opportunity and means to provide them to the needy in order to remain in the state of grace. You might even call it our sacred duty. Since being in a state of grace at the moment of death is a requirement of going to Heaven, and since failing to do those works can jeopardize that state of grace, some would describe that reality as “good works are a requirement of salvation”. I recognize - and articulated the limitations of such a claim: namely that works are not “technically” a requirement because not all who enter a state of grace through Baptism have the opportunity or means to do or to fail to do good works (cf the baptized infant who dies).
- Others - and I questioned whether you fell into this group and meant no disrespect in doing so - might choose to say that the only “absolute”, requirement of salvation is being in a state of grace and the only things that place you in a state of grace are Sacraments (ie Baptism and Confession). They would further clarify that doing works don’t place into a state of grace and therefore they are not “necessary” for salvation.
But, even if someone is confronted with such a situation, it is not the act that saves them. It is still the Grace of Baptism (and nothing else), which they had before and after the act. The act would not save him, but it would prevent him from loosing what he already had. It is a subtle but significant difference. We are not saved by works, but we can be condemned by the lack of works.
Was Mary saved? If so, how?
- Status