Are we slaves?

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My thought is, much like angels are created for a purpose, likewise so are we, and both angels and saints (we as Catholics strive to become saints) both have the purpose to serve the Lord our God, and serve others through Him.

So, are we slaves? That’s sort of a negative connotation. I’d like to think of ourselves as His beloved children.
 
Bahman said:
Can you prove that we are free agent?
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I don’t need to. It is self evident.
I can prove the opposite: our decisions are based on like or dislike and reason hence we are not free. Am I missing something? Moral free agent is a false conception. How we could be moral and be free agent at the same time?
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Being based on, is not the same as being controlled by. The will takes into consideration all of the (name removed by moderator)uts provided to it. The will discounts some, weighs others heavily, and weighs others lightly. In the end however the will is still in control. The will is not controlled by its (name removed by moderator)uts.
So the premise is not false.
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Repeating the assertion does not make it true.
 
Bahman said:
This problem was bothering me for a while. Here there is the argument: Our decisions are the result of the situations we are imposed to and our personalities. The situation define options which we have no control on it. Our personalities are partly the result of what we inherited and how our lives experiences shape our personalities which we have no control on them too. This means that we have no control on our decisions hence free will is an illusion, in another word we are slave.

Your thought?
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This has been covered in some threads on predeterminism or predestination. The Catholic teaching is the God gives us free will.

From Catholic Encyclopedia

Predestination (Latin præ, destinare), taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those which directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man’s free will.

And

Predestinarism
The essence of this heretical Predestinarianism may be expressed in these two fundamental propositions which bear to each other the relation of cause and effect:* the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, without regard to his merits or demerits;
  • as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace while it puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin in consequence of the absence of grace
.
 
davidv said:
I don’t need to. It is self evident.
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It is not self evident so you need to. Can you please support your claim with an example?
davidv said:
Being based on, is not the same as being controlled by. The will takes into consideration all of the (name removed by moderator)uts provided to it. The will discounts some, weighs others heavily, and weighs others lightly. In the end however the will is still in control.
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The personality defines what we like more among our options. We as rational agents take reasons into consideration for our decisions too. So any decision is based on personality and reason. There is just no room left for freedom.
davidv said:
The will is not controlled by its (name removed by moderator)uts.
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I didn’t say so. We just don’t have any control on our options.
 
Vico said:
This has been covered in some threads on predeterminism or predestination. The Catholic teaching is the God gives us free will.

From Catholic Encyclopedia

Predestination (Latin præ, destinare), taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those which directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man’s free will.

And

Predestinarism
The essence of this heretical Predestinarianism may be expressed in these two fundamental propositions which bear to each other the relation of cause and effect:* the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, without regard to his merits or demerits;
  • as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace while it puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin in consequence of the absence of grace
.
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I am afraid that a set of definitions don’t help.
 
We are “slaves” in the way we are
under God’s laws, the laws of gravity,
thermodynamics, etc., and we must fear
God’s laws, b/c everything serves Him.
However, if we live “in the Spirit” we
become children of God and the right-
eous requirements of the spiritual law
are fulfilled in us(Rom. 8:4) We are
given the freedom to cooperate with
God and His kingdom work(Rom. 12:2).

Quite the video from your signature,
“Frozen” by Madonna!
 
GLam8833 said:
We are “slaves” in the way we are
under God’s laws, the laws of gravity,
thermodynamics, etc., and we must fear
God’s laws, b/c everything serves Him.
However, if we live “in the Spirit” we
become children of God and the right-
eous requirements of the spiritual law
are fulfilled in us(Rom. 8:4) We are
given the freedom to cooperate with
God and His kingdom work(Rom. 12:2).

Quite the video from your signature,
“Frozen” by Madonna!
Click to expand...
What you believe acts as a constrain hence it cannot set you free.
 
Bahman said:
It is not self evident so you need to. Can you please support your claim with an example?

The personality defines what we like more among our options. We as rational agents take reasons into consideration for our decisions too. So any decision is based on personality and reason. There is just no room left for freedom.

I didn’t say so. We just don’t have any control of on our options.
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Why does the absence of control of the options deny free will?
 
Bahman said:
This problem was bothering me for a while. Here there is the argument: Our decisions are the result of the situations we are imposed to and our personalities. The situation define options which we have no control on it. Our personalities are partly the result of what we inherited and how our lives experiences shape our personalities which we have no control on them too. This means that we have no control on our decisions hence free will is an illusion, in another word we are slave.

Your thought?
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Do you mean slaves to the system? I would say yes for a number of issues.
 
Bahman said:
What you believe acts as a constrain hence it cannot set you free.
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We are never TOTALLY free with the freedom
that YOU mean, for example we cannot sin
grieviously and still get off scott free!!
There are RULES and commandments we
must obey in order to live a HEALTHY life!!
 
Bahman said:
This problem was bothering me for a while. Here there is the argument: Our decisions are the result of the situations we are imposed to and our personalities. The situation define options which we have no control on it. Our personalities are partly the result of what we inherited and how our lives experiences shape our personalities which we have no control on them too. This means that we have no control on our decisions hence free will is an illusion, in another word we are slave.

Your thought?
Click to expand...
We do not bring ourselves into existence.
We do not create the circumstances into which we our thrown, either outside or inside ourselves.
We do what we do with what we are given. We can create either good or evil from what we are given.

Slaves have free will.
In fact, they are more likely to exercise their will than most of us who are “free”.
Free will involves a transformational moral choice and has little if anything to do with the miriad decisions of daily life.
It has nothing to do with being free to do what you want without consequence.

Those are my thoughts, I’m not sure it will assist with what is bothering you since I don’t get what it actually is.
 
GLam8833 said:
We are never TOTALLY free with the freedom
that YOU mean, for example we cannot sin
grieviously and still get off scott free!!
There are RULES and commandments we
must obey in order to live a HEALTHY life!!
Click to expand...
Yes, we of course need to live a healthy life. A constrain is however a constrain. We as a rational agent accept constrains in any aspect of life meaning that we are slaves of what we believe.
 
Aloysium said:
We do not bring ourselves into existence.
We do not create the circumstances into which we our thrown, either outside or inside ourselves.
We do what we do with what we are given. We can create either good or evil from what we are given.

Slaves have free will.
In fact, they are more likely to exercise their will than most of us who are “free”.
Free will involves a transformational moral choice and has little if anything to do with the miriad decisions of daily life.
It has nothing to do with being free to do what you want without consequence.

Those are my thoughts, I’m not sure it will assist with what is bothering you since I don’t get what it actually is.
Click to expand...
I am sorry to say that what did you said didn’t help the problem. The problem is very simple: We are rational agents and have different personalities. Being rational means that we strive on reason when we want to make a decision. Our personalities also define what we like or dislike in a situation. This leave no room for freedom at all by accepting the facts that we are rational agents and have personalities. This means that free will is an illusion and we are slaves.
 
Bahman said:
I am sorry to say that what did you said didn’t help the problem. The problem is very simple: We are rational agents and have different personalities. Being rational means that we strive on reason when we want to make a decision. Our personalities also define what we like or dislike in a situation. This leave no room for freedom at all by accepting the facts that we are rational agents and have personalities. This means that free will is an illusion and we are slaves.
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A slave has a master, or else if there is no master then there is no slave.

A master requires a specific behavior, or else there is no act of slavery, where the slave follows his master’s dictate.

A decision of what to do does not pay attention to the master’s requirement, but this decision ignores the master to choose what the chooser wants rather than what the master has dictated, for a master’s dictate would not allow choice.

Unless, of course, there is a kind of slavery where the master allows freedom to his slaves - “you are free to make choices that benefit me as your master, because you know me and what will help me.”
 
Bahman said:
I am sorry to say that what did you said didn’t help the problem. The problem is very simple: We are rational agents and have different personalities. Being rational means that we strive on reason when we want to make a decision. Our personalities also define what we like or dislike in a situation. This leave no room for freedom at all by accepting the facts that we are rational agents and have personalities. This means that free will is an illusion and we are slaves.
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There is no problem.
If one is rational, one understands that rationality is possible only because we are relational.
We must connect before anything else.
We may be societally defined by what we have, but given that we do not choose what we are given, reality defines us by what we do with what we are given.
There is no room for freedom in a mechanistic universe.
There is only freedom in one created out of love and founded on relationship (the Trinity).
In reality, the slave can be free and the tyrant enslaved by his lust for power.
This is all about love.
 
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