Are we slaves?

[davidv]

No. You don’t need a master. You could be slave of what you are and the situation that you experience.

Which is exactly what the Catholic teaching on sin includes. Sin enslaves us. There is good news, however.

Jesus’ life, death and resurrection frees us from this slavery if we want to be free.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.”

 

[Bahman]

…There is no room for freedom in a mechanistic universe.

That sounds like our universe. We are rational being and have personalities.

There is only freedom in one created out of love and founded on relationship (the Trinity).

I have a thread on this very topic that God cannot create free being. It is very simple: God cannot create a free being because he cannot design it since a free being is in-designable.

In reality, the slave can be free and the tyrant enslaved by his lust for power.

Thats very definition of us. We are enslaved by our needs.

This is all about love.

I cannot understand how love could help. Love is a need.

 

[Bahman]

Which is exactly what the Catholic teaching on sin includes. Sin enslaves us. There is good news, however.

We are enslaved of our needs and that is why we sometimes do sin.

Jesus’ life, death and resurrection frees us from this slavery if we want to be free.

I cannot understand how that could help. We are still enslaved to our needs. We are weak so we sin again and again.

 

[davidv]

We are enslaved of our needs and that is why we sometimes do sin.

I cannot understand how that could help. We are still enslaved to our needs. We are weak so we sin again and again.

Does your lack of understanding make it untrue? The grace of God is available to all to help us to do good and avoid evil.

 

[Aloysium]

That sounds like our universe. We are rational being and have personalities. I have a thread on this very topic that God cannot create free being. It is very simple: God cannot create a free being because he cannot design it since a free being is in-designable. Thats very definition of us. We are enslaved by our needs. I cannot understand how love could help. Love is a need.

We are related to and inseparable from the world in which we participate.
This relationship can be strained and leave us feeling alientated from the world and from ourselves.

Maybe love is what you need, but charitas is not a need, nor an emotion. Love involves a choice.
Love is the act of giving of oneself to what is other, associated with a caring for that other which deepens the connection between self and other - unity through the offering of oneself.

We are not God. We do not bring ourselves into existence. We are not omniscient, not omnipotent, and not all good.
We are however free to make moral choices within the boundaries of our finite existence. That freedom is to love or not to love, to seek God or not. That’s it imho.
If you are not interested in either, I see that you will have a problem living with the perpetual state of ignorance and powerlessness that is otherwise the human condition.

 

[Bahman]

Does your lack of understanding make it untrue?

Lack of understanding of what?

The grace of God is available to all to help us to do good and avoid evil.

I do only need understanding of situation to do good and avoid evil accepting your definition of good and evil and accepting the fact that I am not supernatural so I can fail sometimes. Apparently that is God creation which left me weak so I vulnerable to sin and apparently nothing has changed by life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[davidv]

Lack of understanding of what?

You please tell me. These are you words in post #43:

Bahman:

I cannot understand how that could help. We are still enslaved to our needs. We are weak so we sin again and again

I do only need understanding of situation to do good and avoid evil accepting your definition of good and evil and accepting the fact that I am not supernatural so I can fail sometimes. Apparently that is God creation which left me weak so I vulnerable to sin and apparently nothing has changed by life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

God’s creation did not leave you weak, our ancestors’ sin did that. For those who disregard or reject Jesus’ mercy, nothing has changed. This however, is not a permanent condition.

For those who do accept His mercy, the change is freedom from sin’s slavery.

 

[Bahman]

You please tell me. These are you words in post #43:

I still don’t understand.

God’s creation did not leave you weak, our ancestors’ sin did that. For those who disregard or reject Jesus’ mercy, nothing has changed. This however, is not a permanent condition.

Adam and Eve also were created weak otherwise they wouldn’t sin accepting the fact that the myth is real.

For those who do accept His mercy, the change is freedom from sin’s slavery.

So you claim that all Christian are sinless!

 

[Aloysium]

I still don’t understand. Adam and Eve also were created weak otherwise they wouldn’t sin accepting the fact that the myth is real. So you claim that all Christian are sinless!

It seems to me that your assumptions prevent you from accepting the truth.
Adam and Eve were not created weak. They were essentially the best of humanity. Unfortunately we do tend to choose ourselves over love. It is no myth, but rather a simple story about our first parents that has profound meanings which continue to reveal their trutha even after many, many decades of contemplation.
Christians claim that we are all sinners and that salvation can be achieved only through Jesus Christ.
I’m not sure what you are looking for.
If you want to understand, open your heart, pray, give of yourself and contemplate the teachings of the church.
You can choose to keep doing what you are doing. It is very simple, you choose.

 

[John_Martin]

No. You don’t need a master. You could be slave of what you are and the situation that you experience.

Yes, and a “slave of what you are” means you are free, because you are your own master, making your own decisions.

 

[Vico]

Yes, but I use what I define to make an argument.

This is your argument:

We have no control over the imposed situations which define our options.
We have no control over our personalities which result from inheritance and experiences.
Decisions result from imposed situations and personalities.
Conclusion: we have no control over decisions, that is, no free will.

That logic would apply to non-rational beings. Man has the capability of judgement, given by God. Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Bahman]

It seems to me that your assumptions prevent you from accepting the truth.
Adam and Eve were not created weak. They were essentially the best of humanity. Unfortunately we do tend to choose ourselves over love. It is no myth, but rather a simple story about our first parents that has profound meanings which continue to reveal their trutha even after many, many decades of contemplation.

You can call them the best of humanity but you cannot escape the fact that they sinned hence they were created weak.

Christians claim that we are all sinners and that salvation can be achieved only through Jesus Christ.

Achieving salvation is a claim. Christians still sin.

I’m not sure what you are looking for.
If you want to understand, open your heart, pray, give of yourself and contemplate the teachings of the church.

I used to believe in Christianity but I decided to leave.

You can choose to keep doing what you are doing. It is very simple, you choose.

Yes. It is very simple: wherever it may lead.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, and a “slave of what you are” means you are free, because you are your own master, making your own decisions.

I cannot be my own master and slave at the same time.

 

[Bahman]

This is your argument:

We have no control over the imposed situations which define our options.
We have no control over our personalities which result from inheritance and experiences.
Decisions result from imposed situations and personalities.
Conclusion: we have no control over decisions, that is, no free will.

That logic would apply to non-rational beings. Man has the capability of judgement, given by God. Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God.

No, that logic would apply to rational being too since a part of our personalities result from experience. That is experience which allow us to improve our sense of judgement on a situation.

 

[Aloysium]

You can call them the best of humanity but you cannot escape the fact that they sinned hence they were created weak.

This is merely the personal judgement of one person.
It sounds lacking in compassion and in appreciation of the human condition.
Rather an arrogant thing to say actually.

Achieving salvation is a claim. Christians still sin.

It is a revealed truths which seem obvious to me.

I used to believe in Christianity but I decided to leave.

Sorry to say this gives a bad impression. i will leave it at that. It’s your business. I will pray for you.

Yes. It is very simple: wherever it may lead.

May it lead to love.

 

[John_Martin]

…
Achieving salvation is a claim. Christians still sin.

I used to believe in Christianity but I decided to leave.
…

Oh, you are one of us; then it is no surprise you spar on the forums.

When baptized, God marks you with a character and name that cannot be lost, even it you turn from the faith.
And like a shepherd calling his sheep, he continues to call that name.

And you are here writing, kicking against his shepherd’s goads, protesting. Yet you are here where somehow a word will finally again make Him appealing to you to turn again to see Him for who He Is.

You seek to prove to Him that free will is false, so you have an argument for not returning to Him. The argument that it is not your fault.

 

[Vico]

No, that logic would apply to rational being too since a part of our personalities result from experience. That is experience which allow us to improve our sense of judgement on a situation.

It is different because mankind has a rational soul which animals and plants do not have. The rational soul is the will and intelligence and does not die, whereas the souls of animals and plants are not rational and die.

 

[Bahman]

This is merely the personal judgment of one person.
It sounds lacking in compassion and in appreciation of the human condition.
Rather an arrogant thing to say actually.

That was a simple argument which makes sense.

It is a revealed truths which seem obvious to me.

What truth?

Sorry to say this gives a bad impression. i will leave it at that. It’s your business. I will pray for you.

Thank you.

May it lead to love.

Maybe.

 

[Bahman]

It is different because mankind has a rational soul which animals and plants do not have. The rational soul is the will and intelligence and does not die, whereas the souls of animals and plants are not rational and die.

I don’t understand how your comment is related to our disscusion.

 

[Vico]

I don’t understand how your comment is related to our disscusion.

I wrote:

This is your argument:
We have no control over the imposed situations which define our options.
We have no control over our personalities which result from inheritance and experiences.
Decisions result from imposed situations and personalities.
Conclusion: we have no control over decisions, that is, no free will.
That logic would apply to non-rational beings. Man has the capability of judgement, given by God. Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God.

You wrote:

No, that logic would apply to rational being too since a part of our personalities result from experience. That is experience which allow us to improve our sense of judgement on a situation.

I comment that there is a difference between rational beings and non rational beings, because what you present applies to non-rational beings. You are saying that it applies to rational beings also because there is a change to personality due to experience. The will and the intelligence, that is the capability of judgement, are attributes of the rational soul not the body, since that power of judgement is of the soul, that power is not a result of experiences, however the experiences themselves provide the subject matter for judgments. By conscience, the person’s reason judges the morality of his actions. This is assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Non rational creatures do not have this help.

Catechism 1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path, 54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church. 55