Are We Still Praying For the Conversion of Russia?

[beehumble]

Beehumble, may I ask you for substantiation for your very first sentnce which states that the concecration was done “in the context of Our Lady’s request?”

Yes. I provided this information in the thread: Is Our Lady of Fatima Still Relevant?…but will repeat it here to save you the trouble:

I said “First, the consecration has been done.” Here are the three reasons:

First, the only living Fatima visionary at the time of the consecration was Sr. Lucia, and she herself said it was valid, when she said in 1989:

“God accepted the consecration of March 25, 1984 as the one that fulfilled all the conditions for the conversion of Russia…The Pope was united to all the bishops in 1984. Those who did not want to be united with the Holy Father, the responsibility is theirs. The request for the Consecration was always an appeal to union. The Mystical Body of Christ (the Church) must be united! The members of the same Body are united!

His Excellency, the Bishop of Leiria, (Bishop Alberto Amaral) was here. He asked me and I told him, ‘Yes. Now it was made.’

The Apostolic Nuncio (of Lisbon) [the representative of the Vatican] has been here recently and asked me, ‘Is Russia now consecrated?’ ‘Yes. Now it is,’ I answered. The Nuncio then said, ‘Now we wait for the miracle.’

I answered, ‘God will keep His word!’

As Editor of the Fatima Family Messenger I [Father Robert J. Fox] was told in 1989: “Lucia wants the message to get out to the world that the Collegial Consecration of Russia has taken place.”

When Sister Lucia was told that not every Catholic bishop in the world joined in the 1984 consecration, Sister Lucia replied,

“It is true not every Catholic bishop responded to the Pope’s request. That is their personal responsibility. But it was done right in 1984 and Our Lord has accepted the Collegial Consecration.”

Sister Lucia has explained that an exact numerical number of 100% of the bishops was not required but the fact that most did join the Pope made for a moral totality.

So according to Sr. Lucia herself, the visionary who had many personal, intimate conversations with both Our Lord and Our Lady at various times throughout her life, the consecration first mentioned at Fatima in 1917 has been enacted.

Second, the Vatican also said it was validly enacted.

Third, history says it is valid. Here is a list of events concerning Russia since the consecration of March 1984 as listed in a timeline found on EWTN’s website, and with other significant events also added:
The consecration was of Russia to Blessed Mary’s Immaculate Heart, and a review of events related to Russia and its allies (the USSR) since March of 1984 reveals that it has been done,.

Mar. 25, 1984 Pope John Paul II, “united with all the pastors of the Church in a particular bond whereby we constitute a body and a college,” performs the consecration. Sr. Lucia tells the papal nuncio to Portugal that the Consecration is fulfilled.

May 13, 1984 On the anniversary of Fatima, one of the largest crowds in Fatima history gathers at the shrine to pray the Rosary for peace.

May 13, 1984 On the anniversary of Fatima, an explosion at the Soviets’ Severomorsk Naval Base destroys two-thirds of all the missiles stockpiled for the Soviets’ Northern Fleet. The blast also destroys workshops needed to maintain the missiles as well as hundreds of scientists and technicians. Western military experts called it the worst naval disaster the Soviet Navy has suffered since WWII.

Dec. 1984 Soviet Defense Minister, mastermind of the invasion plans for Western Europe, suddenly and mysteriously dies.

Mar. 10, 1985 Soviet Chairman Konstantin Chernenko dies

Mar. 11, 1985 Soviet Chairman Mikhail Gorbachev elected

April 26, 1986 Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident

Dec. 8, 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty (INF) to remove/reduce short range nuclear
missiles from Europe and elsewhere

May 12, 1988 An explosion wrecked the only factory that made the rocket motors for the Soviets’ deadly SS 24 long-range missiles, which carry ten nuclear bombs each.

Aug. 29, 1989 Sr. Lucia affirms in correspondence that the consecration “has been accomplished” and that “God will keep His word.”

Nov. 9, 1989 Fall of the Berlin Wall

Nov-Dec 1989 Peaceful revolutions in Communist Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania

1990 East and West Germany are unified

Dec. 8, 1991 On the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the presidents of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus met in Belovezh Forest, near Brest, Belarus, and declared the end of the Soviet Union, and founded the Commonwealth of Independent States, in what became known as the Belavezha Accords.

Dec. 25, 1991 Dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, with the Soviet hammer and sickle flag being lowered from the Kremlin for the last time, fittingly, on Christmas Day in the West.

The information on Sr. Lucia’s replies comes from the book by Father Antonio Maria Martins, S.J., called Documents on Fatima & the Memoirs of Sister Lucia. It is the most complete work on Fatima and can be found here if anyone is interested: fatimafamily.org/index.ph…products_id=42

 

[beehumble]

So it has been done and accepted by God and Russia is not Catholic
but has stopped spreading her errors (At Fatima Blessed Mary said Russia would spread her errors). This does not preclude many or most of the Russian people ever becoming Catholic, but I do not think based on the evidence that is what Our Lady meant.

In a speech to a class, Putin answered students’ questions and to one he said one his heroes is St. Francis. Recently the Russian government allocated some 150 million dollars for restoration of churches, and more recently a large portion of Russian people are now opposed to abortion (Russia was the first country to legalize abortion in 1920 or so, and it is still legal there as in most Christian countries, but this is another good sign.) It sounds as if the Russian gov’t is more open to religion than ours!

 

[Hunter53]

So it has been done and accepted by God and Russia is not Catholic
but has stopped spreading her errors (At Fatima Blessed Mary said Russia would spread her errors). This does not preclude many or most of the Russian people ever becoming Catholic, but I do not think based on the evidence that is what Our Lady meant.

In a speech to a class, Putin answered students’ questions and to one he said one his heroes is St. Francis. Recently the Russian government allocated some 150 million dollars for restoration of churches, and more recently a large portion of Russian people are now opposed to abortion (Russia was the first country to legalize abortion in 1920 or so, and it is still legal there as in most Christian countries, but this is another good sign.) It sounds as if the Russian gov’t is more open to religion than ours!

You can believe whatever you want to believe but as for me I’m still praying for the conversion of Russia and the real consecration.

 

[Hesychios]

And how do you know the will of God. Because it was not done the way the Mother of God requested.

First of all, it is the Pope who has Universal Jurisdiction, not Sister Lucia. In this case I think I read somewhere that sister Lucia agreed that it was done correctly anyway (-]if anyone knows for certain one way or another please post /-] never mind, I see it above). How many times is the bishop of Rome supposed to do the ceremonies before everyone is happy? 100 times? 1000 times?

Didn’t Pope Pius XII also do a consecration? If so that would make twice already.

The apparitions themselves would not even be worthy of belief (which is not to say that they are true nor to say they are untrue, only that they teach nothing contrary to the Faith) if the church authorities, subject to Papal authority as the final word, did not grant them this status. It is the authority of the church, and not the opinions of the people, which allows this topic to even be discussed by faithful Catholics. The church is the final arbiter and interpreter of any messages claiming to have come from the BVM.

In fact, according to Catholic theory and the canon law approved by the Popes there is NO RECOURSE to the judgment of the Pope. If he says it was done appropriately, it was done appropriately, and no one may second guess his nor challenge his decision because he has the final word. In an ecclesiastical system based upon the recognition that some person must have the final word, and it is the holder of the office of Saint Peter who has that final word, the holder of that office has said it was done, and done correctly.

Now unless we can find some new apparition, approved by the church authorities, which says it was not done correctly, or (even better) some new Pope that says it was not done correctly, I don’t think we have a leg to stand on here.

Finally, it seems to me that people who have no authority in doctrinal matters have no standing whatsoever in speculation over God’s will, especially to the point of challenging the decisions of the legitimate authority vested in the bishop of Rome.

 

[maurin]

First of all, it is the Pope who has Universal Jurisdiction, not Sister Lucia. In this case I think I read somewhere that sister Lucia agreed that it was done correctly anyway (-]if anyone knows for certain one way or another please post /-] never mind, I see it above). How many times is the bishop of Rome supposed to do the ceremonies before everyone is happy? 100 times? 1000 times?

Didn’t Pope Pius XII also do a consecration? If so that would make twice already.

The apparitions themselves would not even be worthy of belief (which is not to say that they are true nor to say they are untrue, only that they teach nothing contrary to the Faith) if the church authorities, subject to Papal authority as the final word, did not grant them this status. It is the authority of the church, and not the opinions of the people, which allows this topic to even be discussed by faithful Catholics. The church is the final arbiter and interpreter of any messages claiming to have come from the BVM.

In fact, according to Catholic theory and the canon law approved by the Popes there is NO RECOURSE to the judgment of the Pope. If he says it was done appropriately, it was done appropriately, and no one may second guess his nor challenge his decision because he has the final word. In an ecclesiastical system based upon the recognition that some person must have the final word, and it is the holder of the office of Saint Peter who has that final word, the holder of that office has said it was done, and done correctly.

Now unless we can find some new apparition, approved by the church authorities, which says it was not done correctly, or (even better) some new Pope that says it was not done correctly, I don’t think we have a leg to stand on here.

Finally, it seems to me that people who have no authority in doctrinal matters have no standing whatsoever in speculation over God’s will, especially to the point of challenging the decisions of the legitimate authority vested in the bishop of Rome.

Now I am quite certain that you are not hinting that this was an infallible pronouncemrnt bibding on all the faithful.

I’m not arguing a point or a counterpoint here. Remember that thoughts are free, so I’m gonna toss in one of mine, or maybe two, if you don’t have an objection.

In regards to the Concecration of Pius XII and the reConcecration by JPII, I thought that it was the world that was Concecrated to the Immaculate Heart, and no mention of any particular nation.

Sister Lucia, I think, is a reasonable authority on the subject, seeing that she was one of the children to whom Our Lady appeared.

Yep, that was two thoughts

Of course, I am no authority on the subject.

Btw, VERY cool cross out font thingamajiggy, above.

 

[Hunter53]

First of all, it is the Pope who has Universal Jurisdiction, not Sister Lucia. In this case I think I read somewhere that sister Lucia agreed that it was done correctly anyway (-]if anyone knows for certain one way or another please post /-] never mind, I see it above). How many times is the bishop of Rome supposed to do the ceremonies before everyone is happy? 100 times? 1000 times?

Didn’t Pope Pius XII also do a consecration? If so that would make twice already.

The apparitions themselves would not even be worthy of belief (which is not to say that they are true nor to say they are untrue, only that they teach nothing contrary to the Faith) if the church authorities, subject to Papal authority as the final word, did not grant them this status. It is the authority of the church, and not the opinions of the people, which allows this topic to even be discussed by faithful Catholics. The church is the final arbiter and interpreter of any messages claiming to have come from the BVM.

In fact, according to Catholic theory and the canon law approved by the Popes there is NO RECOURSE to the judgment of the Pope. If he says it was done appropriately, it was done appropriately, and no one may second guess his nor challenge his decision because he has the final word. In an ecclesiastical system based upon the recognition that some person must have the final word, and it is the holder of the office of Saint Peter who has that final word, the holder of that office has said it was done, and done correctly.

Now unless we can find some new apparition, approved by the church authorities, which says it was not done correctly, or (even better) some new Pope that says it was not done correctly, I don’t think we have a leg to stand on here.

Finally, it seems to me that people who have no authority in doctrinal matters have no standing whatsoever in speculation over God’s will, especially to the point of challenging the decisions of the legitimate authority vested in the bishop of Rome.

Both times it was done in their own way, not like the Mother of God told them. You want to believe church leaders over the Mother of God but I don’t.

 

[otjm]

Are We still Praying for Russia to be Consecrated to the Imaculate Heart of Mary?? From 1960 all Popes ,Cardinals,bishops have been flooded with every type of mail but to No Avail. The Church being an Hierarchy keeps the Laity Voiceless and Ignorant. Communication between the Pope and his bishops with the Laity is non- existant. The Pope recieves three million letters per year, so forget him, Cardinals,bishops Might answer their mail BUT its according to the Correspondant? WHY doesn’t the Pope and his bishops do what was asked of them?? Some More WHYS? WHY doesn’t the Pope and his bishops Cut off the Diseased Sheep fropm the Flock? WHY Doesn’t the Pope and his bishops Remove evil from Roman Catholicism??Here is an Important WHY?wHY Doesn’t the Pope and his bishops OBEY Canon Law # 912 # 915 $ 1329 #1398 And Follow Church Doctrine by Excommunicating all bishops,priests,Polititions,and laity who AID,ABET and Counsel abortion ,and\or homosexuality?? IF the leaders did what Jesus and the Apostles wanted them to do, We would have our Church back .!

The Pope did; the visionary of Fatima confirmed it, but certain individuals have rejected both the Pope’s action and the visionary’s response, operate as a conspiracy theorist would, and treat the whole matter as if it were a formulaic incantation by which, with proper form and substance, history could be controlled. That is, magic.

 

[Hesychios]

Now I am quite certain that you are not hinting that this was an infallible pronouncemrnt binding on all the faithful.

Not at all. No hinting either, I am very explicit in my post.

This is strictly a matter of universal jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome is binding upon all the faithful. This power is ordinary and immediate (not mediated in any way, direct).

 

[maurin]

Both times it was done in their own way, not like the Mother of God told them. You want to believe church leaders over the Mother of God but I don’t.

Not at all. No hinting either, I am very explicit in my post.

This is strictly a matter of universal jurisdiction. The jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome is binding upon all the faithful. This power is ordinary and immediate (not mediated in any way, direct).

My understanding–incomplete as it is, and even if complete, inconsequential-- tends towards Hunter’s pov.

If Our Lady asked that something be done in an apparition approved by the Church, and the request is confirmed by the one who received the apparition, and the Pope says that the Concecration of the world served to fulfill that request, is that not kind of like saying two plus two equalls four and a quarter? Again, I think that a distinction begs to be drawn between legal and moral authority. I’m not seeking agreement, just presenting my opinion.

 

[maurin]

The Pope did; the visionary of Fatima confirmed it, but certain individuals have rejected both the Pope’s action and the visionary’s response, operate as a conspiracy theorist would, and treat the whole matter as if it were a formulaic incantation by which, with proper form and substance, history could be controlled. That is, magic.

Not magic. Miraculous.

 

[jackangelo1]

as I said , I like the Facts,just the Facts. All pf you said the Pope Converted the Countries of the World to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ,this is NOT what the Blessed Mother said and wanted, SHE SAID “in the end my Immaculte Heart will Triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me. Russia will be Converted ,and a period of Peace will be given to the World” Pope Benedict ,just recently ,acknowledged that there was many ERRORS given about the " THIRD SECRET of Fatima. The Church has been , not truthfull , with what was said by the Blessed Mother at Fatima. as I originally wrote, the Pope must Remove evil from Roman Catholicism?? WE should Demand The Truth from the Pope and his bishops. None of them have OBEYED Church Lawes?::

 

[Hesychios]

Not magic. Miraculous.

I think we are all intelligent here, and a civil discussion over just how the consecration was asked to be done, versus how it actually was done can be made.

I would like to see the texts of the prayers, time and date, who was present, etc. Not to mention a discussion of the actual *intent *(but not limited to intent).

I think probably there have been other threads on the subject, but I have not seen them. It is a topic worthy of discussion.

 

[Hesychios]

as I said , I like the Facts,just the Facts. All pf you said the Pope Converted the Countries of the World to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ,this is NOT what the Blessed Mother said and wanted, SHE SAID “in the end my Immaculte Heart will Triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me. Russia will be Converted ,and a period of Peace will be given to the World” Pope Benedict ,just recently ,acknowledged that there was many ERRORS given about the " THIRD SECRET of Fatima. The Church has been , not truthfull , with what was said by the Blessed Mother at Fatima. as I originally wrote, the Pope must Remove evil from Roman Catholicism?? WE should Demand The Truth from the Pope and his bishops. None of them have OBEYED Church Lawes?::

We don’t have any say in the matter.

The Pope does, that’s how it works.

Since the Roman pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment.

The sentence of the apostolic see (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff.

So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.
Decrees of the Vatican Council of 1870AD, Session IV Chapter III

 

[maurin]

I think we are all intelligent here, and a civil discussion over just how the consecration was asked to be done, versus how it actually was done can be made.

I would like to see the texts of the prayers, time and date, who was present, etc. Not to mention a discussion of the actual *intent *(but not limited to intent).

I think probably there have been other threads on the subject, but I have not seen them. It is a topic worthy of discussion.

I am wondering, Hesychios if you are suggesting that I have been uncivil in this discussion?

As I have admitted repeatedly I am not as well versed on this subject as some others may be. All that which I have read points to the Blessed Mother appearing as Our Lady of Fatima making among other requests, the Consecration of Russia specifically to Her Immaculate Heart. Neither Pius XII nor JPII mentioned any nation by name but Consecrated the whole world to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart. Within the context of several interviews over decades, and although there are contradicting statements reported made by Sister Lucia, the ones stating that the Concecrations were not done as Our Lady requested outnumber the ones stating that they in fact had, at least in essence if not to the tee. Now I’m not certain, and I am open to correction, but I am not convinced that when presented with what appear to be facts, fall in line or are under the aegis of the proclamation of Vatican I in the context of this conversation as you have presented it. Again, I am not certain of this.

if any of my posts on this thread have been received in any other manner than my intent, which is merely to join the conversation, then let this last sentence of this post serve as an apology, sincerely given.

 

[Hesychios]

I am wondering, Hesychios if you are suggesting that I have been uncivil in this discussion?

NO! Not at all. I am sorry I gave the impression.

I was inviting a wider discussion, and I sort of used your post as a jumping off point.

I think the participants here have much to share on the subject, and I am really interested in the details of what the BVM (if it was her) asked to be done, as well as what the Popes did in detail. It should be possible to get the exact wording, and that sort of thing.

 

[otjm]

Not magic. Miraculous.

Try reading my post again; I think you have mis-read it.
What I am saying is that there is a very small group of individuals who have approached the whole issue of the 3rd Secret as if it were a magic formula, that, if properly chanted, would result in controlling God. That is, unless it were followed exactly to the letter, God could not intervene, (and by implication, has not done so).

I will not repeat the list of things that have occurred since JP2 carried out what he (and the visionary) said constituted the consecration of Russia. One could look at the list and say they were all just coincidenses, that the hand of God cannot be seen in them (to which I would reply with JP2’s statement - there are no coincidences with God).

Do I belive in the miraculous? Absolutely, having had too many things occur in my life (not life time - my life, as in, to me) to not believe that God intervenes.

I have also read enough statements reported by visionaries to know that what is revealed - By Christ, Mary or other saints - is often in language that is far more malliable and far less precise than some afficianados of those visions would have them to be.

My faith in Christ, His mother, the Church, and the Pope is far greater than getting caught up in a second-guessing game of whether or not the Pope did it just exactly as Mary requested.

And there are far greater issues to deal with since the Changes to the USSR than whether or not he was precise enough or whether or not it worked. For starters, we need to focus on current crises, such as the secularization of the faithful, the loss of faith that has occurred (and I don’t limit it to the Church) and the rampant misuse of sexuality, which in turn has lead and continues to lead to the abortion of children world wide.

Yes, I believe in miracles, and I believe that the Pope consecrated Russia (USSR) and the world, that Christ, His Father and His mother are all satisfied and that a series of miracles have occurred and continue to occur there.

And I also believe it is time to move on.

 

[maurin]

There are too many conflicting accounts of Sister Lucia stating that the Concecrations were not done in the way requested by Our Lady, and these outnumber the accounts of Sister Lucia stating that they were done to Our Lady’s satisfaction.

Thank you for the clarification of your other post. I assure you I was not commenting on your personal piety and offer a sincere apology if it seemed so.

 

[otjm]

There are too many conflicting accounts of Sister Lucia stating that the Concecrations were not done in the way requested by Our Lady, and these outnumber the accounts of Sister Lucia stating that they were done to Our Lady’s satisfaction.

Thank you for the clarification of your other post. I assure you I was not commenting on your personal piety and offer a sincere apology if it seemed so.

It did not seem so. Often, I do not speak of how I feel. Having met several individuals who have had their time clock stuck back when the Pope made his consecration, I have found the “true believers” (should I say "true disbelievers?) so far beyond the pale, so emotionally wrapped up in the issue, and so far beyond any rational discussion as to leave me somewhat concerned, literally, for their mental health.

I do not suggest that anyone who inquires of the issue, or has some doubts about it, fits in this category. But I have met several who appear to have lost contact, if not with reality, then certainly with certain aspects of rationality. Truly, there are some people who approach this issue as if it were magic. Not miraculous.

 

[maurin]

Otjm,

So you are speaking of extremists?

I think that the facts that have been discussed above warrant the doubts that neither Concecration fulfilled the request of Our Lady of Fatima.

And with sincere respect for your point of view, I do not find myself in agreement with it. But I will say that I also back away politely from the one person I meet who seems to fit the profile you describe. After all, in the end, we are assured that Her Immaculate Heart will triumph.

 

[jackangelo1]

as I said , I like the Facts,just the Facts. All pf you said the Pope Converted the Countries of the World to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ,this is NOT what the Blessed Mother said and wanted, SHE SAID “in the end my Immaculte Heart will Triumph. The Holy Father will Consecrate Russia to Me. Russia will be Converted ,and a period of Peace will be given to the World” Pope Benedict ,just recently ,acknowledged that there was many ERRORS given about the " THIRD SECRET of Fatima. The Church has been , not truthfull , with what was said by the Blessed Mother at Fatima. as I originally wrote, the Pope must Remove evil from Roman Catholicism?? WE should Demand The Truth from the Pope and his bishops. None of them have OBEYED Church Lawes?:
Most of you seek more clearity on this thread and I do have that information but I must find the time to gather the facts. Understand one thing ,Many Errors were spread by most people involved, the bottom line is, People added or subtracted what the LADY of Fatima said.