Are we that out of touch?

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ncjohn said:
As you know, brother, your experience of that time frame and mine were very different. As background for those not familiar, there are only a couple months difference in age between the two of us.

My experiences of the pre-Vatican II Church were miserable. So miserable that when I went off to college it began what became an almost total separation from the Church until my mid-forties, though I did attend an occasional Mass during the rest of those years and was married at Mass.

When I did return, it was because I found in the parish where I went a group of people of incredible holiness, living the gospel in joy. I found a priest who made the gospel relevant to everyday life and showed a completely different vision of God from the “gotcha God” who was waiting for me to make a mistake to send me to hell.

Over several years I had a full conversion experience and simply fell into the arms of the merciful God I had heard about who loves each of us infinitely. No, I’m not one who ignores sin or thinks that evil isn’t real, but I have found God to indeed be the essence of love. Rather than living in fear for my mistakes, I live in gratitude and a desire to please Him *in spite *of my mistakes.

It was in studying Vatican II documents and finding a liturgy that was alive and in which I personally participate that I found my home. I have no problem with those who respond more to the TLM, however bad my own experience might have been. I simply recognize that our different personalities and temperments resonate differently: some to silent prayer while others are more active; some preferring a language of mystery while others prefer a more directly understandable one; some preferring the symbols, signs and statuary of a more ornate nature while others prefer the simple. Following a Franciscan spirituality, I find myself far too distracted by very ornate settings and feel uncomfortable in most cathedrals though I find them beautiful from an aesthetic standpoint.

So in the end, I’m kind of a third category to brother’s two of embracing and disdaining the changes that came out of V2. I simply dropped out. When I returned things had relatively stabilized, at least where I am. I never much cared for the “folk” choirs and bad guitar music, though our current parish has classicly-trained guitarists who put a completely different flavor on the music when they play.

While I’ve certainly seen some irregularities in my travels, I’ve never experienced the kinds of true abuses that some describe. I saw far, far more abuse in the pre-Vatican II Masses I attended and served at than anything I have seen in the Pauline Mass. I personally perceive much more reverence, joy and active devotion now than I ever saw pre-V2, though of course I don’t pretend to be able to know what anyone’s interior disposition was then or is now. I do expect that that is also true of the TLM now though because those who attend it do so because it is specifically where they want to be.

I have little doubt though that if the TLM was the only game in town again that the pew potatoes at the current Pauline Masses would similarly be pew potatoes in the TLM. And those “horrible” priests that currently aren’t qualified to do the TLM, or don’t have an interest in doing it, would probably not make it the kind of place it is right now where the priests doing it really want to do it. So overall, I tend to think that the current position of having both available is probably the right one.

Peace,
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Hello everyone,

My name is Mike. I fell upon this thread and found myself interested in what everyone was saying. I must apologize, I am a young man of 24 years. I know that there was a request for only older generations. I just had to comment on John’s response. I must admit, I was generating my own opinion on the subject of discussion. And when I read John’s response to it all, I smiled. I think John hit it right on the nose when he talked about people relating to God in different ways. Some like the perpetual silent reverance, and others like to interact with their faith in a more lively fashion. I myself appreciate reverance. It is most definately called for a times. But I think we would all be doing God, as well as ourselves, an injustice if we were not to praise and worship God with enthusiasm, energy, song and dance. For we can look to the Old Testament days and see how it please God for his people to praise him in song and dance. So kudos to John on that point. I will leave it at that to respect the orginal request for older generations only.

God bless,

Mike
 
Since we are discussing our experiences prior to Vat II.
I made my first communion in 1945 at St. Joseph’s Polish church. Mass was in Latin and the sermon in Polish. I became an alter boy and learned the prayers in Latin. I made my confirmation at the same church. For me we attended mass every day during the school week and on Sunday.

When the mass changed to English it was not that shocking to me. I did miss the Latin and the Latin songs. Saying some prayers out loud and holding hands was something I did not know about until about a year ago. All the churches I attended say the Our Father out loud but do not hold hands and just shake the have of the person nearest you.
Not kneeling for communion is hard on me, I think it shows reverence to God.

It is still the mass, however, I wish the Eucharist was in the middle of the church not to the side. And I still kneel upon entering not just bowing.

But the bread and wine become the body and blood as in previous ceremonies and that is what it is all about. And I still am the only one striking my breast three time.
 
Late boomer here - made my first communion in a TLM, then dropped away from the sacraments after one too many guitar-and-burlap-banner Masses when I was around 15. Zero feeling of sanctity in the New Mass. They told my parents to leave their missals at home, to give up the traditional devotions. And they lost both my parents.

All those years in the early 70s - I never, ever heard any talk of confession, no mention of Adoration, nobody praying the Rosary, priests just saying “make an act of contrition and you’re fine”, never heard the term “mortal sin”. I spent two years in Catholic school in the 1970s, and I never even heard the word “Monstrance” until I learned it on EWTN 5 years ago. Zero Catechesis.

Say what you will, but V2 as implemented in the US drove me and all of my peers away from the Church. Not some. All that I know of. It is ONLY because of EWTN that I returned. Otherwise, I would’ve been lost forever.

I think we’ve gone through our 40 years in the wilderness, and it’s high time to get back to a greater sense of sanctity, tradition, and unity with all the previous generations of Catholics going straight back to the Apostles.

Thank God for the current Pope - the Holy Spirit gave us the right man at the crucial time, to help bring us back from the brink of modernizing the Mass into meaninglessness.

10 years ago, I was certain that I would see the Faith die away in my lifetime. Now I have hope that it will survive.
 
I was born in 1964 and studied the Church, her different Masses and History, as a early teen, and was baptised in 1984.God seems to have wanted to really show me something, but also always reminded me that the Latin Mass would return in a few years, and that I must remain patient and ready. I knew the Church was the One True Church of Christ, and had to study it in secret, as I was raised as a staunch Baptist, and by a Masonic father who expected me to follow in his footsteps.

Even though I did not favor the way that the NO Mass was said everywhere, and often with great abuses, I did not join the Church because I of any desire of mine, but God’s Alone. I was not at Mass for myself, but for God. I recall many times being laughed at for claiming that the TLM was coming back, and some parishioners (about my age) did not even know what the TLM was! I did not hesitate to educate them and was very thankful for being able to gain the knowledge before the knowledge was really useful.

I remember reading much about the Archbishop Lebrevre incident and somehow knew that this was the “turning point” that God was speaking to my heart about. I found it both profound and confusing at times and wondered how even a good lawyer could make sense of the whole affair, let alone the faithful. This was the turning point where I knew that my prayers, as well as many others’ have been heard. Since then, only through great struggle, does it seem that desire has grown (and continues to grow) into fruition.

To be able to attend a TLM is being able to truly be Catholic. The TLM clearly defines the roles of the people and the whole meaning of the Sacrifice of the Mass, without ambigious or blurry meanings. Latin is what makes the TLM universal to the world, and anyone who makes excuses as to why they cannot understand it, are only making excused for themselves for their lax attitudes. They are not fooling anyone: they want to take the narrow and easy road. The typical TLM parishioner can easily learn the required texts in a matter of a few weeks, if they apply some concentration. Concentration is the keyword here. The TLM takes our complete attention, and when one follows the Missal, they are never lost. I have always found it akin to following a libretto to an opera. It is an intellectual and academic process that has been attempted to be eraticated by uncontrolled secularilism, liberialists and modernistic thinkers and educators.

With practice and personal application, one soon will never want to go to a NO, if they can help it. Attending an NO Mass after attending a TLM a number of times, makes the NO Mass very uncomfortable. This is strange, as it would seem that persons who prefer the NO Mass are seeming very “comfortable” considering what is happening at the alter!

Tradition is never out of touch. The TLM is so spiritually solid and reverent, that to even consider it as something “out of date” would be a heresy. It is making the claim (as some actually do), that the Church has become obsolete! It is the reality that with modernism comes madness.

One may easily see that the numbers of attendance at the available Latin Masses, versus the decline of the NO attendance, would prove that the social experiment of V 2 was one that has seemingly lost it’s “new”. I shutter to think of the possiblities that could await us if we allow it to happen again. To keep the Faith, one must know the Faith. I have great faith that the TLM will soon be commonplace again.
 
I was just commenting on this matter in a private message this morning, so I will share it with everyone:

For myself, and my family, all of our traditions, Catholic, ethnic, clan, familial, and otherwise are “perennial,” that is, they are with us always. To us nothing is past, but is ever in the present, the way God is. Many see my family, my wife wearing long skirts, and I wear a suit and fedora often times, and feel we dress old-fashioned, for reasons of nostalgia. While we do have a certain admiration for the past, as it links us to the eternal, this is not why we dress this way. To us we are not dressing old-fashioned, but very much being current according to our way of life. Therefore, to us Catholic tradition, represented by most clearly in the Old Mass, is alive fully in its connection to all ages, it is ever catholic. The modern world is a striking departure from the ways of our ancestors, and those whose ways marked the passage of civilization until the 19th century. Attempts to reconcile with modern world are to us folly, because you cannot reconcile revolt with tradition.

Because of this, we do not view the traditions of the pre-Vatican II world as being outdated or old, but ever new and relevant. I agreed with Pope John XXIII that we needed some fresh air, but not because the Church had become outdated, but because she was loosing connections to the Living Water, which we experience most fully in holy tradition. A Church based on sentiment and rote becomes vulnerable to attack and lukewarmness, which is why our ways needed to renew us, and not vice-versa. We instead attempted to impose our narrow ways to the breadth of tradition, which is unfortunate.

So to summarize, yes, there are some “traditionalists” who do not like the changes of Vatican II because they are simply not going to like anything new, no matter what the reasons for it. These people are being negative because they are negative in their beliefs, i.e. nothing new means nothing bad. I do not agree. New things, like new wine in old wine sacks, if organically developed out of its roots, remain perennial and part of that which has always been, even though new. By this I am a perennialist, and live by the perennial philosophy. That which is True is Eternal, and that which is Eternal can never die.

“I am with thee always, even unto the consumation of the world.”

I hope the wells of Living Water come to you, that you may draw of their abundance.
 
Hello, I’m twenty eight years old and I have a tremendous appreciation for the pre-consular mass and spiritual life of the church. But I often hear that before the reforms, the church was mired in anti-semitism, misogyny and an insular world view, and that the Vatican II changes help to reduce bigotry and sexism among Catholics. I also hear many critics of the EF revival say that with the reintroduction of the 1962 missal there is a risk that these faults may make a rival too. Personally, I don’t see what the rich cultural and devotional life that tradtional catholicism offers has to do with racism and sexism, but with the contraversies and accusations surrounding SSPX, as a young Catholic I ask you older Catholics: Have you seen a reduction in these vices since the council? Did the church have particularly vehement problems concerning these issues before Vatican II? Is there a risk of their reival with the reforms and efforts of Benedict XV!?
 
jkzeigler said:
Hello, I’m twenty eight years old and I have a tremendous appreciation for the pre-consular mass and spiritual life of the church. But I often hear that before the reforms, the church was mired in anti-semitism, misogyny and an insular world view, and that the Vatican II changes help to reduce bigotry and sexism among Catholics. I also hear many critics of the EF revival say that with the reintroduction of the 1962 missal there is a risk that these faults may make a rival too. Personally, I don’t see what the rich cultural and devotional life that tradtional catholicism offers has to do with racism and sexism, but with the contraversies and accusations surrounding SSPX, as a young Catholic I ask you older Catholics: Have you seen a reduction in these vices since the council? Did the church have particularly vehement problems concerning these issues before Vatican II? Is there a risk of their reival with the reforms and efforts of Benedict XV!?
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Anti-semitism? I can’t speak for other areas but in New Orleans we always had good relations with our Jewish brethren. Did we pray for Jewish conversion on Good Friday? Yep. As well as we prayed for Protestant conversion. Other than that? No. It wasn’t on our radar screens.

Racism? Yes. Undeniably. I experienced it. I saw on live TV in 1962 three Catholics (including a parish (county) president excommunicated by Abp. Rummel because they were opposed to Catholic school integration…this was years before the Federal mandate. I also saw my mother make lemonade and take it out to the black ditch diggers using (shock!) our family glasses and the flack she took from our neighbors. Racism had little to do with HMC. It was more a product of the southern culture at the time. HMC was ahead of the curve not behind it.

Misogynism? Let me tell you about the Sisters and the “room mothers” and what a powerful impact they had. You can’t apply modern feminism to a “Leave it to Beaver”, “Donna Reed” kind of culture. Moms ruled the family and my mother was very equal opportunity. There was no woman’s work and men’s work. I washed dishes. I made beds. I cleaned windows. Well, there was men’s work. My sis never cut the grass but that was before riding lawnmowers.

Insular worldview? Fascinating. I sit here at 57. I am the product of 13 years of Catholic education before I got a BA and MA in anthropology no less. My conscience (con scientia [with knowledge]) was formed in those days under the direct influence of the sisters and brothers. Nothing could be further from the truth. We were taught that a faith which could not survive challenge was not faith at all.

We were taught to use our noggins. We were an immigrant church here in the US. We Irish were portrayed as apes. HMC put a premium on education before Vatican II and Deo gratias, ite Deo gratias, I got a fine one. I am the very first person in my family to graduate from college much less go on to get a graduate degree. My brother, sister, and cousins all got degrees. But we are dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants. Insular worldview? Good grief. Catholics espoused education. Catholics still espouse education…I put my sons through Catholic schools because I believed in Catholic education.
 
jkzeigler said:
Hello, I’m twenty eight years old and I have a tremendous appreciation for the pre-consular mass and spiritual life of the church. But I often hear that before the reforms, the church was mired in anti-semitism, misogyny and an insular world view,

Geez, I do wonder who you’ve been talking to…or rather who has been talking to you. The Church mired in anti-semitism? I don’t think so. My Father was born in 1914, attended 12 yrs. of Catholic school & his best friend & mentor was named Mr. Rosenthal. He was Jewish & a survivor of the holocaust. He taught my Father his trade. Mr. Rosenthal owned a kosher bakery & my Dad worked for him until Mr. Rosenthal died. My Father then bought his own bakery & made a very good living for 5 children. He sent them all to Catholic elementary & high school & sent us all to the University. He always gave the credit for his success to Mr. Rosenthal. (Sorry, he died while I was a young child & I have no idea what his first name was. Children in those days didn’t call adults by their first name).

I remember Mr. Rosenthal visiting our home for Christmas Eve supper & & eating Oyster Soup with us. UGH…to this day I won’t eat that. it was from him that I learned about the Menorah & saw my first one as a child. He had lost his wife in a Nazi concentration camp & had no other family in the states. So…we always visited his home on the 8th day of Chanukah because all 8 candles would be lit. You can’t imagine how beautiful that sight was to a young child whose home did not include candles.

I have also heard some here speak of the integration of Catholic schools. I never remember going to a Catholic school that didn’t have blacks, whites & Mexicans & I entered my first Catholic school in 1946. I suppose, in the South, it was different but this racism & bigotry that you’ve been hearing about was something that I NEVER saw. In fact, the Academy of the Sacred Heart, where I attended high school, was a stop in the undergroung railroad during the civil war. Living in Missouri, we were a border state.

I am a woman & I’ve never seen sexism within the Church. My own Mother had had to leave school after completing the 6th grade. She had never left the state of Missoui. Most of her women friends hadn’t attended high school & lived but a few miles from their parents. And, here were these nuns. They had COLLEGE EDUCATIONS (big thing in that day…right after the war. It was a big thing for men to have gone to college also. BTW. these nuns impressed upon us girls that we should set a goal for the same. They were travelled, they lived…some of them 800 miles from their home town. And they LOVED their “career” of teaching young Catholic children. One could just tell.

Of course, women of that time actually liked being WOMEN. They did not need to DO what men DO in order to be “equal”.

If you will read this board for a while, you’ll see that those who think the Church began in the 1960’s are not very tolerant of us Trads. Check their views with google, etc. before you actually believe them. Of course, I advise that no matter whose posts you are reading.
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brotherhrolf said:
Anti-semitism? I can’t speak for other areas but in New Orleans we always had good relations with our Jewish brethren. Did we pray for Jewish conversion on Good Friday? Yep. As well as we prayed for Protestant conversion. Other than that? No. It wasn’t on our radar screens.

Racism? Yes. Undeniably. I experienced it. I saw on live TV in 1962 three Catholics (including a parish (county) president excommunicated by Abp. Rummel because they were opposed to Catholic school integration…this was years before the Federal mandate. I also saw my mother make lemonade and take it out to the black ditch diggers using (shock!) our family glasses and the flack she took from our neighbors. Racism had little to do with HMC. It was more a product of the southern culture at the time. HMC was ahead of the curve not behind it.

Misogynism? Let me tell you about the Sisters and the “room mothers” and what a powerful impact they had. You can’t apply modern feminism to a “Leave it to Beaver”, “Donna Reed” kind of culture. Moms ruled the family and my mother was very equal opportunity. There was no woman’s work and men’s work. I washed dishes. I made beds. I cleaned windows. Well, there was men’s work. My sis never cut the grass but that was before riding lawnmowers.
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Ahhhh, you’re bringing back memories again, Brotherhrolf. When I was in the 5th grade, a young new priests was sent to my parish. I remember two things about him, he played baseball with us kids on the playground in a cassock…and…he got in SO MUCH TROUBLE with our principal Sister Mary Joan. We had a PA system in our school & it was a fairly recent aquisition. I remember two things about that system. #1. The principal broadcast the “Old soldiers never die” speech that Douglas McCarther made over the PA. in 1951. AND #2. our new, young priest decided one May morning to get on the PA system & call off school." It is such a beautiful day in this month of Our Blessed Mother. It’s just too nice to sit in school. You children may go home. (This did not make a problem as we all lived within walking distance of school & the few kids who had Mother’s who worked outside the home.had had arrangements made just in case.) A few minutes later I saw Father Knowland heading for the Principles office. He was in pretty much “dead meat” & we children knew it. NOone called off Sister Mary Joan’s school except Sister Mary Joan. He never did that again.
I
nsular worldview? Fascinating. I sit here at 57. I am the product of 13 years of Catholic education before I got a BA and MA in anthropology no less. My conscience (con scientia [with knowledge]) was formed in those days under the direct influence of the sisters and brothers. Nothing could be further from the truth. We were taught that a faith which could not survive challenge was not faith at all.

We were taught to use our noggins. We were an immigrant church here in the US. We Irish were portrayed as apes. HMC put a premium on education before Vatican II and Deo gratias, ite Deo gratias, I got a fine one. I am the very first person in my family to graduate from college much less go on to get a graduate degree. My brother, sister, and cousins all got degrees. But we are dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants. Insular worldview? Good grief. Catholics espoused education. Catholics still espouse education…I put my sons through Catholic schools because I believed in Catholic education.
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Excellent post, Brotherhrolf. And yes, we were taught to use our noggins!!! I was also the first one in my family to attend college & I can thank the nuns for that. They believed in me way more than I believed in myself & they pushed, prayed & cajoled me to take the College Entrance Exams. You see, I was “in love” at the time & not sure I wanted to leave my boyfriend while I went away to college. I well remember Reverand Mother Chandler telling me that if it was true love, it would survive. In the end, my boyfriend…now my husband of 49 years…won a scholarship & also went to another college. She was right, our love survived & has continued to survive.
 
brotherhrolf,

I hope you don’t mind if I reply by proxy. My wife is of the age you describe and was raised Catholic on the east coast of Canada. I myself am a convert of 6 years, but I have talked with her and her family about that time, out of curiosity. She remembers going to mass daily as a girl because she sang in the choir, and going to school after that at the convent. Got her knuckles rapped a time or two as well. She loved the Church then and loved going to mass. She even thought seriously of becoming a nun because she loved the Church and a couple of relatives on both her father and mother’s side were nuns.
Her father was Irish and her mother was French (not Quebec French) so there was deep Catholic history and culture on both sides.

When her father died she was still a kid along with five others still at home. That was the catalyst that scattered the family from the Church. Today there are only two out of six, she and an older brother, who have gone back.

Another of her brothers told me his impression of growing up in the Church and it was very similar to ncjohn’s experience. He said he always felt guilty. He couldn’t do this, couldn’t do that, always confessing. To him, like some others I’ve spoken to, it was only a world of rules. Isn’t it odd how two members of the same family could have such different experience.

My wife talks sometimes about the family saying the rosary after supper every night because her father insisted on it. She even went with a group of kids to pray the rosary on the local radio station for broadcast.

By the time Vatican II came she had already drifted away, so when she came back to the Church it was totally different. She hadn’t been there for the transition. Relatively speaking, our experience with the Novus Ordo mass has been good. That is to say we have not experienced the extremes of abuse. Perhaps in our parish that was the case once and has now reverted back to a more reverent mass. Personally, coming from an Evangelical background, the Novus Ordo was extremely reverent compared to what I was raised with.

Her one older brother has not returned yet, but has shown some interest. However, he knows enough of what is happening because he complained once to me that he feels he got ripped off, because these days “no one goes to confession but everyone goes to communion.” This is putting him off, because instinctively he knows that we all need confession sooner or later, and he’s right about that. He remembers weekly confession that included every sin however slight or venial, and no receiving communion without Saturday afternoon confession.

To answer your question, you are not out of touch at all. One of the strongest movements among the young Catholics is toward a reverent mass, at least for those who are taking their faith seriously to begin with. These forums give us lots of evidence that liturgical abuse is still taking place, of course, and looking at the website of another parish of our diocese here tells me enough to know that I won’t be going there.

As to the mass, I’ve seen enough to agree with Father Fessio, that a true comparison between the ordinary and extraordinary rites has not yet been made. The ordinary rite, using Latin extensively, putting back the altar rails (their removal was not part of VII), as well as moving the altar back and re-orienting the priest (those changes also not mandated but permitted by VII) could be a very reverent mass. But really, it has not been tried. As someone else has pointed out, the mass on EWTN comes as close as any I’ve seen or heard.

All it would take is a strong minded priest in a parish here and there to start making some changes within his authority, like putting back the altar rails, and you might find the trend moving back toward reverence. But as grandfather has pointed out, there is a need for a change of heart as well.
 
I was born in Chicago, January 27th, 1950. I attended Queen of Apostles grammar school in Riverdale, Ill. from 3rd through 8th grades and an all boy Catholic High School in Chicago for my freshman year and another all boy Catholic High School in Kalamazoo, Mich. my sophomore and junior years. I graduated from a public high school in a Western suburb of Chicago.

I have very fond memories of the nuns who taught me and even of the times I got whacked around pretty good for my disruptive behavior. I feel a lasting debt of gratitude for their sacrifices and professional teaching skills. If needed, I might have entered the working world at age 14 and been a success. I could read, perform all the basic or simple mathematical problems well and had a solid ability to express my thoughts through the use of the English language. Unfortunately, it would be many years later until I appreciated and fully participated in the holy sacrifice of the Mass. If it didn’t involve football, basketball or baseball, it wasn’t worth my time. Had it not been for sports and the requirement to maintain a C average without any F’s, I would have floundered.

Unlike many of you who have posted here, the order of the Mass, whether NO or TLM was of no consequence to me personally. I dropped out as soon as I went away to college and never really began practicing my faith until our first child was born in 1982 and even then I would fade in and out. I experienced both Masses over the years and even in the recent years have attended both and personally feel that they should exist side by side at every Parish and let attendance dictate which if either is deserving of multiple Mass times.

I am drawn to things traditional and place more importance on maintaining good traditions than I do on attempting to keep up with progressive thinking. I have a very difficult time accepting much of the validity of liberal thinking and associate liberalism with error. But I also recognize that they balance each other out so that progress can take place when truly needed and good traditions can be maintained for the betterment of society. I could not have possibly voted for Obama but I’m happy for African Americans.

I personally am attracted to Gregorian Chant and much prefer that and silence while participating in the Mass. I am truly bothered by irreverence in church and wonder why these people don’t get it. I am saddened by the people who are there in body only and are missing out on the beauty and grace that comes from full participation in the most glorious form of God worship available to man.

All that said, I prefer the NO with some Latin and the more traditional hymns of my childhood. Hearing the words of the perfect prayers that make up so much of this worship, I am sometimes brought to tears. That may very well happen to some or many of you while participating in the TLM but not for me. God will sometimes touch the core of my soul through the spoken word in the only language I am conversant in and I am grateful for the experience and thankful that I have been called as a Catholic to stand in His Presence.

I feel fortunate that regardless of whether the Mass is TLM or NO, I will be able and willing to worship the Most Holy Trinity fully and enthusiastically. It does not need to be nor should it be an all or nothing proposition. I think that most traditional priests understand this better than their liberal counterparts who I think fear obliteration of all of their gains via VII.

I’m not a chapter and verse kinda guy but I would point to the Gospel(s) that mention the time that one of the Apostles or possibly one of the other disciples, were whining about others who were not of their group but were healing in Christ’s name and Jesus’ response was on the order of " if they weren’t against us, they were with us ". That is how I view Protestantism and the portion of the Catholic Church that wishes we were more Protestant like.

Maybe someday our Lord will straighten this out through His consecrated religious persons but for now, I trust that the Holy Spirit is still in charge and that we are all in good Hands.

The peace of Christ be with you all,

JT
 
I like to think and I like to reason. I suspect that most people who participate in this type of forum are similar. This thread appeals to me because it causes me to consider life experiences that are far enough removed that they should feel distant and yet are as vivid as if they just occurred.

Catholic grammar school holds almost exclusively fond memories for me, even though I know that there is no way it was all fun and games. It is a blessing to recall and appreciate the innocence and beauty of being surrounded by people devoted to their Catholic faith.

Even though I mostly rejected what was being offered, a foundation was established that was stronger than the world’s pull towards grave sin. But I also recognize and offer thanksgiving for the family I was born into.

Before I was created, my Irish ancestors were establishing themselves in this new Country and their faith in God and His Church were steadfast and public knowledge. My great grandmother would have been thrilled to death to be able to participate in something like these discussions but settled for writing articles published in the local Kansas paper,
some of which included poetry and all of which praised God. They had twelve children and one became a priest and three became nuns. I am convinced that I have benefitted in a substantial way from their lives and prayers. One of their son’s, my grandfather, was a devout Catholic, a staunch Republican who as the long standing County Assessor, fought for lower personal taxes, and he fought alcoholism his entire adult life.

And so it was that my father and I inherited and carried on these traditions to varying degrees. The one constant it would appear, is that we all are more sympathetic to traditional values and cast or have casted a watchful and cautious eye on progressive reasoning. I am the sum of all that I have learned and experienced and that which takes place beyond my knowing.

Pre VII traditions of prayer and reverence, a premium on obedience and a healthy respect for God’s consecrated men and women are what I know to be effective. There is a humility that is part and parcel of these practices that I’m not convinced exists in liberal Catholic practices and it is my perceived lack of obedience and humility push me away from most progressive practices and draw me ever closer to those practices that are centuries old.

But I am not in lockstep with any faction, religious or political. None have 100% of the Truth and neither are perfect in application. I’m grateful to have experienced first hand the Latin Mass that millions of Catholics participated in over many hundreds of years and am
personally appreciative to be able to participate in today’s Mass in the language I know, understand and am able to comprehend it’s deepest potential meaning(s).

The practices of pre VII worked in and for many many lives and are deserving of consideration as something that was effective and able to survive the test of time. They should be held up to the light for all Catholics to examine and should have a place in every parish so that fair comparisons may be made.

I am bothered by the all or nothing attitudes of most Pastors. The Catholic Church is named such because it is universal. All people should feel comfortable in any parish in the world. No one should be required to find a parish that is in sync with their sensitivities
but should have the option to simply choose the Mass time that allows them to worship almighty God to the very best of their abilities. Each and every priest and more importantly every pastor should strive for a balance as regards public worship and lose any idealism that would alienate some while nurturing others.

This in my opinion, should be the goal of American Bishops and in fact, Rome.

I drive fifteen miles to attend Mass at a parish that is more in line with the way I think God would have me worship, because the parish three miles away worships in a manner
I find unacceptable. These religious are entrusted with shepherding each and every one of us, not just the ones who agree with their understanding of worship and fellowship.

I can’t help but think how much this offends and hurts our Lord. I think it is of little consequence to God as to which is the more perfect form of worship. Our public worship of God is only a fraction of what is required to live a life pleasing to God and in union with His will. After the vertical God and me work is done there is the horizontal me and the rest of the mystical Body of Christ work to accomplish. They are never exclusive of the other and always require that differing factions set aside their differences to accomplish the greater good. When we perform works of charity, how many of the recipients accept or refuse help based on our public worship practices?

May the peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT
 
Hi there,

In the interest of full disclosure I want to say that I do not fit the category that you have pre-selected to take part in this thread. I am, however, working closely with my father (born in 1947) on his memoirs and we have talked extensively about the topic of his religious upbringing in northern Alberta and the Northwest Territories and I thought I would share his insights.

My father was quite pleased with the changes of Vatican II because for him and his siblings there was nothing more alienating than attending a mass in latin. He did not grow up in an educated family and as such very few of them had any idea what was going on during the mass. The move to the vernacular (in his case to French) made it possible for his entire family to access the mass and catholicism much more fully.

My father is also very pleased with the fact that religious orders since Vatican II have been gradually losing their place in society. Unlike others in this forum my father feels hold some deep seeded anger towards the way Catholic boarding schools were run. He has described the way that children were constantly being physically abuse by the nuns for very little reason (often something as minute as getting a math problem wrong would result in a beating). He recalls (often with a smirk) that they nicknamed one of the sisters “Sister Paul the murderer”. He credits the post-Vatican II world with the dissolution of these types of institutions which he hated.

Interesting thread,
JRB
 
jkzeigler said:
Hello, I’m twenty eight years old and I have a tremendous appreciation for the pre-consular mass and spiritual life of the church. But I often hear that before the reforms, the church was mired in anti-semitism, misogyny and an insular world view, and that the Vatican II changes help to reduce bigotry and sexism among Catholics. I also hear many critics of the EF revival say that with the reintroduction of the 1962 missal there is a risk that these faults may make a rival too. Personally, I don’t see what the rich cultural and devotional life that tradtional catholicism offers has to do with racism and sexism, but with the contraversies and accusations surrounding SSPX, as a young Catholic I ask you older Catholics: Have you seen a reduction in these vices since the council? Did the church have particularly vehement problems concerning these issues before Vatican II? Is there a risk of their reival with the reforms and efforts of Benedict XV!?
Click to expand...
The accusations that before the reforms the Church was mired in anti-semitism and misogyny are certainly false. That does not mean there were no Jew or woman haters in the Church. There were drunks, adulterers, blasphemers and practitioners of every other vice that exists. I remember in the 50s, before the civil rights movement, nuns teaching children that if anyone objected to inter-racial marriage it was sinful.

But think again about the implication of the claim. The Council was not called to combat racism, sexism, anti-semitism. Those things were not mentioned as a reason for the Council. Nevertheless, if the logic can be applied to claim any improvments in those areas are a result of the council, then a similar logic can be applied to say any problems that have arisen since the Council and the reforms are the fault of the reforms.

We have an epidemic of divorce and out of wedlock births, an unprecedented sex scandal in the clergy. Legalized and an epidemic of abortion happend since the reforms. There have been epidemics of drug addiction, violent crime, sexual crimes and Catholics equally impacted by these things. Is this the fault of the reforms? Grace has been greatly diminished as we can see in the news all the time, all since the reforms were implemented. Everything that happens is caused.
 
foxscape said:
Hi there,

In the interest of full disclosure I want to say that I do not fit the category that you have pre-selected to take part in this thread. I am, however, working closely with my father (born in 1947) on his memoirs and we have talked extensively about the topic of his religious upbringing in northern Alberta and the Northwest Territories and I thought I would share his insights.

My father was quite pleased with the changes of Vatican II because for him and his siblings there was nothing more alienating than attending a mass in latin. He did not grow up in an educated family and as such very few of them had any idea what was going on during the mass. The move to the vernacular (in his case to French) made it possible for his entire family to access the mass and catholicism much more fully.

My father is also very pleased with the fact that religious orders since Vatican II have been gradually losing their place in society. Unlike others in this forum my father feels hold some deep seeded anger towards the way Catholic boarding schools were run. He has described the way that children were constantly being physically abuse by the nuns for very little reason (often something as minute as getting a math problem wrong would result in a beating). He recalls (often with a smirk) that they nicknamed one of the sisters “Sister Paul the murderer”. He credits the post-Vatican II world with the dissolution of these types of institutions which he hated.

Interesting thread,
JRB
Click to expand...
foxscape - Physical discipline was the norm both at school and at home. God help me if I cut up at school. Not only would I get it at school, often I would get much worse at home. Yes, your father is right and I agree with him. Beating a kid because he or she can’t do a math problem does not teach them math. Vatican II had nothing to do with the dissolution of these practices - the world changed. That, however, is for another thread.

I wish I had a nickle for every time I hear that old shibboleth that we didn’t know what was being said in Latin. I am of Acadian (Cajun French) ancestry and French ancestry. French was spoken in both sets of grandparents’ homes until the turn of the twentieth century. Neither my mother nor my father grew up speaking French. There were newspapers published in French and German in New Orleans until around 1910. My godfather 😃 was Sicilian. “Unc” spoke Italian. All went to Mass in Latin and all understood it.

French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese - all of the “romance” languages abound in cognates (words that sound the same and mean the same). Native speakers of these languages should have absolutely no difficulty in following Latin. There was a huge infusion of Latin words into English in the Renaissance.

Perhaps more importantly, we had missals. We were taught to use those missals at home and at school. We did understand what was being said in Latin - particularly those of us who were fortunate to have a sung Missa Cantata. Yes, I was an altar boy but when I was not serving, I participated with the parish in a sung High Mass most Sundays.

All this emphasis on the vernacular. I’ve pointed this out before. We get tourists from France at my cathedral parish every summer. How much do you think they get out of a Mass entirely in English? Forty-five years ago, they would have been able to participate.

I go to my 40th class reunion of my Catholic boys high school in New Orleans tonight. The same three guys who played guitars at our graduation Mass are still playing guitars and still singing the same old, same old tired songs. They do it by choice just as I continue to sing chants and sacred motets in Latin.

For every person who says they didn’t understand what was going on in Latin, there stands someone like me who did understand Latin and understands that Latin was not a devisive force in HMC but a unifying one.
 
Brother Rolf,

I agree with your assessment about know what was said in Latin. I attended St. Joseph’s Polish Church in Denver. The mass was in latin the sermon in Polish. We had books to learn the English as well. In fact one mass had a sermon in English. I was an alter boy and knew the prayers in Latin and English.

I like to this day the songs sung in Latin, we do some around Christmas and Easter here in the south where I am now. Plus we have a Sunday mass in Spanish.

I lived in Poland and everything was in Polish. Some Latin songs and that is about it. No raising of the hands or walking around the church shaking everyones hand. The Masses in Poland were crowded ever mass. The Holidays had people standing outside.
I miss the Latin wish there was a church nearby who worshiped that mass.
 
brother as always you get to the point. When we have the few times Latin is used at Mass I do understand it and since I was still in grade school when Vat. 2 was promulgated we did not learn any Latin yet, here I sit, French being the language I learned in highschool and College and being able to understand enough Latin to get by without an English side by side missal. I do need to add though that I have attended Mass in Italian, German and French (in those respective countries so in their own Parishes) and was able to follow along just fine. The Mass is the Mass no matter what language it is spoken in. The big problem arises when the Priest decides to do his own thing, then a non-native who does not speak the language would not be able to follow along. Now, having said all of this, my mom, who is a very smart lady (she tests out as genious) found Mass in Latin to be hard if she did not have her missal with her. Her one weak point is languages and Latin was the hardest for her.

As for Grampben’s assertion about the big sexual problems in the Church today, those problems actually harken back to much earlier as a matter of fact before Vat. 2. Can’t lay the blame for that one on this Council.

I am one of those who is happy to have the mass in the vernacular as there are plenty like my mom who just can’t get it - you keep hearing from those here who have lived through it just like you and they didn’t get it.

Brenda V.
 
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