Are we to avoid worldly pleasures to better please God?

[Robert_Sock]

Watch yourself in all things, in what you do and what you say. Direct your every intention toward pleasing Me alone, and desire nothing outside of Me.
-Imitation of Christ, The Twenty-Fifth Chapter

It’s OK to buy and drive an expensive car, I think, but is undesirable to feel any pleasure from it. The same with food; eat that you may gain the strength to better serve God, and not to gain pleasure from it.

We’re all on different paths and at different stages of spiritual development, and there certainly are worldly pleasures that are not sinful, but I fully agree with The Imitation Christ, and I think it’s wise advice if we wish to grow spiritually!

This is what I think Saint John of the Cross would call the most important component in overcoming the Dark Night.

 

[St_Francis]

Is it right to buy an expensive car and then express no gratitude for God that one is able to do so, or for the natural pleasure one ought to feel? God gives us gifts and we are to refuse to enjoy them?

Desire is different from having and enjoying. Desiring is wanting something one does not have–something God did not give.

We eat to sustsin ourselves, God ensures that we have food. Are we to refuse to derive enjoyment from the food we eat to sustain ourselves, which would reduce our gratitude to God for His gifts?

I do think we should do penance, give things up, etc., and that is good. I also think that we should not covet things. However, when God does give us something, a rainbow, a friend, a good meal, we should enjoy what we eat in sustaining ourselves to the fullest, as we would if Christ Himself gave it to us and were there enjoying it with us.

 

[jinglebelle]

The Imitation of Christ is a most profound and wonderful resource

 

[frangiuliano115]

I agree but I don’t know why your post made me laugh.
I guess it’s because I thought: It depends on what the pleasures are!!
Some are not so healthy! Like smoking, for instance. Some people think spending Saturday evening/night at a bar is fun.

I know, I know. We’re all on different paths.
Just keeping myself amused while I try not to enjoy anything…LOL


Fran

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Yes.

So, is pleasure bad? The OP seems to think so. Can I not appreciate the new car smell? Or the smooth operation? Or the quiet ride? If I can’t enjoy them how can I thank God for them. Am I supposed to play mind games and tell myself that my taste buds are not reacting pleasurably to a good piece of chocolate? You know that chocolate is called theobroma, the food of the gods. Not everyone knows that but I do and that little taste of heaven makes me think of God and the little pleasures he has given us in this world but also what he has ready for me.

Perhaps the OP is called to an ascetic, but not all are. I find the suggestion that certain people are more spiritually advanced less than humble. Nice of the OP to acknowledge that we are on different paths but I find that kind of witness off-putting.

 

[DBT]

Watch yourself in all things, in what you do and what you say. Direct your every intention toward pleasing Me alone, and desire nothing outside of Me.
-Imitation of Christ, The Twenty-Fifth Chapter

This is what I think Saint John of the Cross would call the most important component in overcoming the Dark Night.

According to St. John of the Cross, giving up “things” is not nearly as important as lessening our attachment to them. The key phrase in your quote, imo, is “outside of Me” … in other words, loving things for their own sake. That’s where the trouble begins. St. John goes to great lengths to show how creation and created things can lead us closer to God … when our attitude toward them is properly ordered.

One way we can tell how attached we are to a “thing” is how upset we’d be if we no longer had it. Or how much we’d twist our life into a pretzel to get it in the first place.

Dave

 

[bardegaulois]

St Francis is right. We will naturally enjoy the many graces given to us, and it is not wrong to do so. They should of course bring us to deeper gratitude to God for the gift. That said, we are all called to penance, to the abstaining from lawful pleasures, to various degrees, in order that we, as Kempis states, may grow in desire of God.

I am reminded of how St Justin Martyr said in a solemn and emphatic manner to his pagan friends that he came to believe in Christ by noticing the happy and optimistic faces of Christian martyrs amid their extremely shocking pains, and registering that to be significant. St Justin was competent in philosophy, but saw even the brilliant truths shining in the pages of Plato as less outstanding compared to the great witness to the truth shown in the faces of these men dying for Christ. Justin himself later felt and manifested that awful joy when he too suffered martyrdom after a certain period. St Paul stated this attitude rather well: “Gladly therefore will I glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may dwell in me. For which cause I please myself in my infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ. For when I am weak, then am I powerful.”

Our opinion is wrong if we think this surrounding mood of happiness, joy, and devotional feeling as a mere natural, instinctive state of mind deriving from the circumstances. No, this is intense, passionate, and eager feeling and resolve. This is the sincere and intense conviction that made the saints pray with the Psalmist: “I cried with my whole heart, hear me, O Lord.” At times it can appear like a mere fit of worry, the prayer of such a one like a sudden overwhelming fear that produces hysterical behaviour, his great energy as fanatical. St Teresa probably has it right when she asserts that devotional feeling “does not consist in a greater sweetness of devotion, but in a more fervent wish to please God in all things, in avoiding as much as we possibly can, all that would offend him, and in praying for the increase of the glory and honor of His Son and for the growth of the Catholic Church.”

There are dangers that can arise from this intense devotionalism, and there are limits to what most will endure of it. Our environments are generally fraught with spiritual dangers, particularly so in this fallen age, and Kempis, even though he wrote in a far more faithful age, wrote The Imitation with cloistered monks and nuns in mind, who reside in the safest place of the world, one ordered to Christian perfection. What little we glean of his devotional spirit amidst the tumult of our daily lives, however, should make us feel disgusted at the sources of our worldly joy arising from our desires. It is not without cause that Mother Church has established days of fasting and abstinence to help us mortify our desires and so help cure us of the body’s tendency to do exactly what it wants, often characterized by excesses of pleasure and idleness. A love for God in accordance with His Wisdom, which all our spiritual writers are pointing toward, can often lead to an excessive expression of feelings, but it shows us the excesses of our strictly human loves as well, and makes known to us that our material values are nothing but idiosyncratic beliefs that we’ve firmly maintained all of our lives, but are now contradicted by the pleasures of our spiritual existence. To maintain those values further would be like the sign of a mental disorder. St. Paul, again, prayed that his converts might have this well-being of the mind: “That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man.”

So, to be more direct, it’s only that latter pleasure of devotion that can supplant the former worldly pleasures that you inquire about, and that pleasure is a grace that only God can grant, and never something we can will ourselves into. I would conclude by advising that anyone planning to undertake ascetical practice in order to experience this joy only do so only under the counsel of a spiritual director.

 

[Robert_Sock]

God is not pleased with sacrifice and life long penance? Can you provide a good source for that opinion.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

God is not pleased with sacrifice and life long penance? Can you provide a good source for that opinion.

1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Hebrews 10:6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

Genesis 4:4
And Abel also brought an offering–fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,

1 Samuel 13:13
“You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened – burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Psalm 51:16
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Psalm 51:17
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

Proverbs 21:3
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Ecclesiastes 5:1
Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.

Isaiah 1:11
“The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?” says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

Jeremiah 7:22
For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,

Jeremiah 7:23
but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Micah 6:6
With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Detachment from disordered appetites is what St John of the Cross taught.

Enjoying a beautiful sunset, or the taste of a cool drink of water is not disordered, as long as you see these as gifts from God which you are grateful for.

Disordered attachments are when the thing you are attached to, takes precedent over all else.

In today’s modern understanding, it would be those ego attachments which serve to create a false image of self to be projected toward others.

Having a nice car because you like nice cars is not disordered, but having a nice car with the intent of impressing others, as if having a nice car makes you a better person is a disordered ego-identity attachment.

The same is true even with disordered attachments to religion.

Having an ego-identity attachment to a religion in order to project an image to others, is disordered. Such people get easily offended when that religion’s teachings are criticized. Its not the religion that is defended, but the ego.

Religion is for the purpose of growing closer to God, who only knows the true person, not false ego-created image.

Jim

 

[St_Francis]

God is not pleased with sacrifice and life long penance? Can you provide a good source for that opinion.

Yes, we must sacrifice and do penance our whole loves long. What we must not do is to refuse God’s gifts to us.

So, God sends me a child. Am I never to enjoy the child? Am I always to turn a sullen face to the child?

No! Of course not!

We are to be happy and joyous within what God sends us and because God has sent it… If God sends us more sacrifice and penance than usual, then enjoy the sacrifice and penance. If He sends us good things, hold onto the goodness *of God *in sending them.

 

[Robert_Sock]

1 Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Hebrews 10:6
with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

Genesis 4:4
And Abel also brought an offering–fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,

1 Samuel 13:13
“You have done a foolish thing,” Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened – burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Psalm 51:16
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Psalm 51:17
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

Proverbs 21:3
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Ecclesiastes 5:1
Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. Go near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools, who do not know that they do wrong.

Isaiah 1:11
“The multitude of your sacrifices-- what are they to me?” says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

Jeremiah 7:22
For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices,

Jeremiah 7:23
but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you.

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Micah 6:6
With what shall I come before the LORD and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?

Without a strong desire for discipline and sacrifice, we will live our in a twilight world, at best, never able to see the light.

“Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”
-John 12:25 ]

 

[mathematoons]

This is why I have so much trouble with the Imitation. It makes it sound as though we must never feel happy if we are to attain Heaven.

Some pleasures hinder our walk with God. For me, television and movies are one of those. God let me know last year that they were having too much influence on me. So I quit, except for the occasional Christian movie or “safe” animated children’s movie with and for someone else.

On the other hand, some pleasures help our walk with God. Having and loving my dog has helped me grow emotionally and spiritually. If having him were to become a hindrance in my walk with God, then He may very well take my dog back, and I would have to accept it.

Asceticism can become an idol–I know this from my own experience.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Without a strong desire for discipline and sacrifice, we will live our in a twilight world, at best, never able to see the light.

“Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”
-John 12:25 ]

One is given many opportunities to work on discipline and sacrifice every day. They may not seem like much to you but people do them without even thinking about the sacrifice they are making or bring attention to it. IOW they don’t stand on a street corner wearing sackcloth and ashes.

Posts in other threads suggest you think people should sacrifice by not having sex with their spouse or avoid laughing in order to reach a more elevated level of spirituality. Regarding the former, that is rich coming from a single man. Regarding the later, I disagree; having experienced the gift of laughter and knowing that laughing is good for my mental health my experience tells me you are wrong.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

The Simpsons: Protestant vs Catholic Heaven

Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
*Benedicamus Domino!
*
Hilaire Belloc

 

[littlestsouls2]

Mother Yvonne-Aimée of Jesus once came out of an ecstasy and asked for another “delicious” pink treat that was offered to her. There is nothing wrong with enjoying ourselves from time to time - especially if we direct our thanks to God.

It is by progressive detachments, says Bl. Dom Marmion, that we learn to (and receive the grace to) make God our ALL.

 

[Petaro]

I believe we are meant to enjoy all worldly pleasures that are licit and are natural. Thus aesthetics in all its elements brings great joy to most of us, either in music art or nature.
However, enjoying driving a good car has to be seen within our responsibilities to our neighbour. I run to a rule that we can live at our level of prosperity framed within a duty to the poor. Thus I have a 6 cylinder sedan. To have anything less in Australia limits you in distance and comfort. However,it is a toyota not a Bentley. Could I afford a Bentley? Yes, but it is the height of extravagance and waste to buy a depreciating asset when the poor are still with us. Can I enjoy driving a fast toyota and get legitimate pleasure out of the experience? Ofcourse.
I believe the Imitations are certainly skewed towards advice to the cloistered cleric. It’s wisdom is found in its avocation to withdrawal from the world towards a simpler assessment of our needs more attune to the Lord. Very hard to do when you are doing 120 avoiding kangaroos and enjoying the speed. So, I mix it up. I don’t believe Jesus asks us to reject pleasures. However, happiness is both fleeting and rare in this fallen world. I grab what I can but expect little. Rather the peace of mind to which the Imitations direct our vision is more lasting and closer to Heaven than the dopamine hit we express as pleasure.

 

[frangiuliano115]

One is given many opportunities to work on discipline and sacrifice every day. They may not seem like much to you but people do them without even thinking about the sacrifice they are making or bring attention to it. IOW they don’t stand on a street corner wearing sackcloth and ashes.

Posts in other threads suggest you think people should sacrifice by not having sex with their spouse or avoid laughing in order to reach a more elevated level of spirituality. Regarding the former, that is rich coming from a single man. Regarding the later, I disagree; having experienced the gift of laughter and knowing that laughing is good for my mental health my experience tells me you are wrong.

How true. Also, you saved me some work with your post no. 10 because it immediately came to mind to do the same thing after reading the previous post.

If the O.P. is called to give everything up, sacrifice and enjoy nothing, then that’s okay - but then why think about it? It should just be accepted as is everything that GOD tells us to do. Sometimes we get what God wants us to do with what we think We want to do or need.

God loves us at every crossroad and we should be true to His desire for us. If it’s enjoying something great, if not that’s great too. Let’s try to know the difference.

Wasn’t it Buddha who tried to give up everything and decided it couldn’t work?

The only thought I could add is that everything could be good or bad (evil). Depending on how it’s used. TV for example, computers, wine, anything.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I believe we are meant to enjoy all worldly pleasures that are licit and are natural. Thus aesthetics in all its elements brings great joy to most of us, either in music art or nature.
However, enjoying driving a good car has to be seen within our responsibilities to our neighbour. I run to a rule that we can live at our level of prosperity framed within a duty to the poor. Thus I have a 6 cylinder sedan. To have anything less in Australia limits you in distance and comfort. However,it is a toyota not a Bentley. Could I afford a Bentley? Yes, but it is the height of extravagance and waste to buy a depreciating asset when the poor are still with us. Can I enjoy driving a fast toyota and get legitimate pleasure out of the experience? Ofcourse.
I believe the Imitations are certainly skewed towards advice to the cloistered cleric. It’s wisdom is found in its avocation to withdrawal from the world towards a simpler assessment of our needs more attune to the Lord. Very hard to do when you are doing 120 avoiding kangaroos and enjoying the speed. So, I mix it up. I don’t believe Jesus asks us to reject pleasures. However, happiness is both fleeting and rare in this fallen world. I grab what I can but expect little. Rather the peace of mind to which the Imitations direct our vision is more lasting and closer to Heaven than the dopamine hit we express as pleasure.

I go to a sanctuary about 40 min from home about once a month for adult catechism class. Not many of us there, about 12.

Fra’ Lorenzo says that the more you move away from material things, the closer you get to God. I agree with all you said above and with the idea that it’s how we VIEW those material things more than the fact that you have them.

Fra’ Lorenzo might be right, but I couldn’t live as he does. God didn’t call me to. However, if my car gets stolen it won’t cause me to become distraught. This is how I understand that it should be - a detachment from the material thing; even though you enjoy it.

Also, I love your last sentence. It’s my definition of the difference between Joyful and Happy. But using much more eloquent words!

Fran

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I like St. Ignatius’ take on detachment much better than Thomas à Kempis.

From the Spiritual Exercises-
*

The human person is created to praise, reverence, and serve God Our Lord, and by doing so, to save his or her soul.

All other things on the face of the earth are created for human beings in order to help them pursue the end for which they are created.

It follows from this that one must use other created things, in so far as they help towards one’s end, and free oneself from them, in so far as they are obstacles to one’s end.

To do this, we need to make ourselves indifferent to all created things, provided the matter is subject to our free choice and there is no other prohibition.

Thus, as far as we are concerned, we should not want health more than illness, wealth more than poverty, fame more than disgrace, a long life more than a short one, and similarly for all the rest, but we should desire and choose only what helps us more towards the end for which we are created.