Are we to suffer or are we healed???

[Patrick1540]

For the sake of discussion, I thought of bring up this subject,being new, back to the Catholic Faith.Most Evangelical preachers I have seen believe and quote the Scripture 1 Peter2:24 “By the stripes of Jesus we were healed.” They feel that by Jesus suffering, the humiliation, when he was wiped, that paid the price, and we already have physical healing in our bodies. To in act it all we have to do is have Faith in the Blood of Jesus and say this Scripture.For our discussion, I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

 

[Della]

Catholics are certainly free to pray for healing and we do. What we do not do is presume to know God’s will or direct God’s will at our command. To say we already are healed is just plain presumption. To say that God is able to heal and may heal us through Christ’s sacrifice is fine.

I’ve known people who have lost all faith in God presuming that he would heal a loved one who didn’t get better. It wasn’t God who was at fault, rather it was their theology.

If God doesn’t heal after we’ve petitioned in prayer, it’s because it was not his will–he has some better thing in mind, for he isn’t concerned merely with our physical well being, but rather our spiritual well being and our eternal destiny. Sometimes he asks us to suffer with Christ as the means to save our souls and those of others. We can certainly pray and hope for healing but we cannot presume upon God. That’s the same thing as Satan telling Jesus to throw himself off the mountain so the angels would save him in order to prove who he was–it’s presumption and it’s putting God to the test.

 

[PJM]

=Patrick1540;10015251]For the sake of discussion, I thought of bring up this subject,being new, back to the Catholic Faith.Most Evangelical preachers I have seen believe and quote the Scripture 1 Peter2:24 “By the stripes of Jesus we were healed.” They feel that by Jesus suffering, the humiliation, when he was wiped, that paid the price, and we already have physical healing in our bodies. To in act it all we have to do is have Faith in the Blood of Jesus and say this Scripture.For our discussion, I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

Hi Patrick,

This limited and incorrect understanding of God’s intention for the “human condition” has led amy astray, and in the worng direction to merit there salvation.

It seems to be [IMO] a rather common error for many Protestants to violate and ignore the ONE INFALLIBLE RULE for right understanding of the Bible:

NEVER-EVER, can or may one part of the bible made void, invalidate or override another passage or teaching. Were this even the slighest possibility [IT"S NOT!]; the bible would be worthless to teach or learn ones Faith.

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. **Luke.9: 23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **

The Protestant teaching that because Christ Suffered we don’t have too ignores the reality of Life. Man’s natual tendency to sin [which by the way can ONLY be forgiven according to Christ Command and shared Power and authority to the Apostles … Mt. 10:1-8; Mt. 16:15-19; Mt. 18: 18; Mt. 28:16-20; John 17:15-19 and John 20:21-23]

John 20"He [Jesus] said therefore to them[The 11 remaing Apostles] again: Peace be to you***. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you***. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. "Whose sins you [Meaning the Apostles and through them today’s CC] shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

**1Pet.4: 13 **” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

**Phil.1: 29 **“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

This is we summed up here:

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

God Bless you,

pat /PJM

 

[Patrick1540]

Catholics are certainly free to pray for healing and we do. What we do not do is presume to know God’s will or direct God’s will at our command. To say we already are healed is just plain presumption. To say that God is able to heal and may heal us through Christ’s sacrifice is fine.

I’ve known people who have lost all faith in God presuming that he would heal a loved one who didn’t get better. It wasn’t God who was at fault, rather it was their theology.

If God doesn’t heal after we’ve petitioned in prayer, it’s because it was not his will–he has some better thing in mind, for he isn’t concerned merely with our physical well being, but rather our spiritual well being and our eternal destiny. Sometimes he asks us to suffer with Christ as the means to save our souls and those of others. We can certainly pray and hope for healing but we cannot presume upon God. That’s the same thing as Satan telling Jesus to throw himself off the mountain so the angels would save him in order to prove who he was–it’s presumption and it’s putting God to the test.

Della, thank you for your response. What you had to say is very well said.I don’t know if I can keep the discussion going after that answer,but I’ll try. Yes God is only interest in the soul. But Evangelist say that it is an act of Faith, in Jesus Christ, that his time on earth,was mostly healing the sick. They say illness, is not from God,but the Evil one. Therefore as being Sons and daughters of God by adoption in Jesus Christ, entitles us to the same power over the Evil one through the name of Jesus. Therefore we have a right to be healed of any illness.Myself I see the Apostles suffered and even Paul had some physical defect.Yet they say it is not a presumption,but an act of Faith in Jesus being our great physician.If we have enough Faith in Jesus,put on the Armour of God we can defeat anything the Evil one sends our way.

 

[Della]

Della, thank you for your response. What you had to say is very well said.I don’t know if I can keep the discussion going after that answer,but I’ll try. Yes God is only interest in the soul. But Evangelist say that it is an act of Faith, in Jesus Christ, that his time on earth,was mostly healing the sick. They say illness, is not from God,but the Evil one. Therefore as being Sons and daughters of God by adoption in Jesus Christ, entitles us to the same power over the Evil one through the name of Jesus. Therefore we have a right to be healed of any illness.Myself I see the Apostles suffered and even Paul had some physical defect.Yet they say it is not a presumption,but an act of Faith in Jesus being our great physician.If we have enough Faith in Jesus,put on the Armour of God we can defeat anything the Evil one sends our way.

All the claims to it being faith in Jesus is, I’m afraid, only fancy dressing for saying that they can command God because God is obligated to heal through Christ. That’s not faith. Faith asks and then hopes–it’s doesn’t command God to do this or that. St. Paul, as you cited, prayed three times for his “thorn in the flesh” be removed, but God said no. Certainly God has worked many miracles of healing, as Jesus did in his ministry, but he is not obligated to do them. Jesus performed so many as a sign of who he was–not just to bring about physical healing. God certainly cares about our physical well being, but it’s not his primary concern.

 

[Aslan10]

For the sake of discussion, I thought of bring up this subject,being new, back to the Catholic Faith.Most Evangelical preachers I have seen believe and quote the Scripture 1 Peter2:24 “By the stripes of Jesus we were healed.” They feel that by Jesus suffering, the humiliation, when he was wiped, that paid the price, and we already have physical healing in our bodies. To in act it all we have to do is have Faith in the Blood of Jesus and say this Scripture.For our discussion, I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

As someone who grew up prebyterian and went to an evangelical church for a while in college, I don’t think this is a mainstream protestant belief. Ive never heard a prostestant preacher say that we don’t suffer (i dont think many of them ignore the enormous amounts of passages speaking of christian suffering in this world). So, I would take whatever that person said with a grain of salt. Also, there are so many views on things in the protestant tradition that you cant really say that one viewpoint is held by all of protestantism. Thats why im looking in to becoming Catholic.

 

[Patrick1540]

All the claims to it being faith in Jesus is, I’m afraid, only fancy dressing for saying that they can command God because God is obligated to heal through Christ. That’s not faith. Faith asks and then hopes–it’s doesn’t command God to do this or that. St. Paul, as you cited, prayed three times for his “thorn in the flesh” be removed, but God said no. Certainly God has worked many miracles of healing, as Jesus did in his ministry, but he is not obligated to do them. Jesus performed so many as a sign of who he was–not just to bring about physical healing. God certainly cares about our physical well being, but it’s not his primary concern.

Della God Bless you for your wisdom. You have done such a good job, I don’t have anything else to keep this discussion going.You are so right on target when you say they are obligating God or Commanding him.I’m at a lost for words.Bless you!

 

[Della]

As someone who grew up prebyterian and went to an evangelical church for a while in college, I don’t think this is a mainstream protestant belief. Ive never heard a prostestant preacher say that we don’t suffer (i dont think many of them ignore the enormous amounts of passages speaking of christian suffering in this world). So, I would take whatever that person said with a grain of salt. Also, there are so many views on things in the protestant tradition that you cant really say that one viewpoint is held by all of protestantism. Thats why im looking in to becoming Catholic.

Yes, it’s not a mainstream Protestant teaching. It’s found mostly in the more fundamentalist/pentecostalist sects.

 

[Della]

Della God Bless you for your wisdom. You have done such a good job, I don’t have anything else to keep this discussion going.You are so right on target when you say they are obligating God or Commanding him.I’m at a lost for words.Bless you!

Thanks for the kind words, but I hate to think I’m a thread killer.

I was deeply involved in a sect that taught that as one of its basic tenets, so I’ve been there, done that, got the tee shirt. If I have any wisdom on the subject it was hard earned.

 

[Patrick1540]

As someone who grew up prebyterian and went to an evangelical church for a while in college, I don’t think this is a mainstream protestant belief. Ive never heard a prostestant preacher say that we don’t suffer (i dont think many of them ignore the enormous amounts of passages speaking of christian suffering in this world). So, I would take whatever that person said with a grain of salt. Also, there are so many views on things in the protestant tradition that you cant really say that one viewpoint is held by all of protestantism. Thats why im looking in to becoming Catholic.

You are right about not being in mainstream, I was more refreince was more to Evangelical ministers,that are on TBN,TCC,ect… Evangelist in general.Lot of non denominational churches teach this also. I just thought it would be good discussion topic, not meant to offend any church.

 

[Patrick1540]

Thanks for the kind words, but I hate to think I’m a thread killer.

I was deeply involved in a sect that taught that as one of its basic tenets, so I’ve been there, done that, got the tee shirt. If I have any wisdom on the subject it was hard earned.

 

[vjnycguy]

I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

Haha, well you definitely will! Well from my perspective I believe that we are all suffering. Now we can use this suffering for a good thing. It’s not like Christ came and suffered and all of a sudden everything is just peachy. No, it’s not all peachy. We all suffer. We always will. It’s up to us to turn this suffering into something positive.

• Vjnycguy

 

[Patrick1540]

Haha, well you definitely will! Well from my perspective I believe that we are all suffering. Now we can use this suffering for a good thing. It’s not like Christ came and suffered and all of a sudden everything is just peachy. No, it’s not all peachy. We all suffer. We always will. It’s up to us to turn this suffering into something positive.

• Vjnycguy

Hi Vjnycguy, I thought of a way to this discussion alive. In the CCC #2003 which talks on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, one of the gifts is the gift of healing. I personally seen people heal, take place in both Catholic and non Catholic prayer groups. There are TV Evangelist who get people heal in Jesus name. So is our calling to suffer or pray for one another for the gift of the Holy Spirit that a healing take place? God Bless

 

[po18guy]

Suffering is redemptive, correct? Jesus’ suffering was certainly redemptive. Paul writes that the baptized are members of Christ’s Body. Since Christ offered His suffering to the Father in atonement, and since we, being parts of His Body, still suffer, does that mean that we are re-sacrificing Jesus in our flesh? Nonsense!

Suffering is a grace that is to be embraced as, if it does not come from God, He allows it to occur, so that He may bring eternal good out of it. We see in Acts 5:41 that Peter and John rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer for the Name. In Acts 9:16, our Lord told Ananias, just prior to Paul’s conversion, that He would show Paul how much Paul had to suffer for the Name. Yet, all of this occurred after ?Jesus’ atoning sacrifice. How does the typically razor-thin fundamentalist/evangelical theology explain that?

As Catholics, we have the great blessing of being taught the value of suffering. Many protestants, on the other hand, have great difficulty with the concept of suffering, since their greatly simplified theology does not deal well with it, and can offer no explanation for our continuing suffering. I am emailing a non-Catholic woman who is wrestling with that same problem.

It is precisely when we suffer that our lives are most perfectly united with His.

 

[Reuben_J]

For the sake of discussion, I thought of bring up this subject,being new, back to the Catholic Faith.Most Evangelical preachers I have seen believe and quote the Scripture 1 Peter2:24 “By the stripes of Jesus we were healed.” They feel that by Jesus suffering, the humiliation, when he was wiped, that paid the price, and we already have physical healing in our bodies. To in act it all we have to do is have Faith in the Blood of Jesus and say this Scripture.For our discussion, I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

Hi Patrick. Nice to ‘see’ you again.

Just a cursory observation. IMO, 1 Pet 2:24 cuts both ways –

(1) Basically it alludes to our soul being healed spiritually which is the most important aspect of our objective in salvation. We are only temporary sojourners on earth but we look forwards to eternal life, one that really matters. What is it to suffer during our entire life compared to the bliss we attain in eternity in the heavenly kingdom of the Father? By his stripes he takes away our own stripes caused by the torture of eternal punishment due to our sins.

(2) The healing can happen while we are still on this earth. The main reason for this is because of the Lord’s love and compassion for us. It is not enough that He heals us only in the eternal life but there is good reason for us to be healed of our affliction here on earth. Some of these afflictions can become obstacle for us to know, accept and surrender to God sufficiently, we human being weak creatures. God steps a bit further to heal us so that we can be free to really do them.

The principle here is, we cannot love God the way he loves us. In His love for us, God ‘helps’ us to love Him according to how He wants us to. One of the ways to do that would be to release us of our physical burden which can be obstacle for us to love God sufficiently. Physical healing,** if it happens**, therefore, is a grace to help us spiritually in a journey of faith on earth. I could go on and on, but I hope to give a general idea on all this. The main thing is we cannot discount God’s infinite love for us that include even physical, mental, emotional and psychological healing while we are still on earth. Thus by his stripe we are healed; he took away our pain and experienced it himself.

God bless.

 

[R_C]

I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church

Personally we are healed: “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). Yet, Christ chose to willingly give up self and suffer for the sake of others, and it is consequent that, as we are born in Baptism, we will imitate Christ on the way of the cross. Then we will be worthy of the honor of being His servants, the servants of a God who not only became in our likeness, but having called us friends, made us His brothers by giving us in adoption to the Blessed Virgin, His mother (Hebrews 2:17, John 19:26-27).

Exodus 3:7

Blessed are the suffering, for they are seen, heard and known by God.

Lamentations 3

Blessed are those who suffer in the darkness of affliction, for they learn the mercy and compassion of God.

Romans 8:21-22

Blessed are the suffering, for they experience the pain of creation longing to be set free from death.

2 Corinthians 1:3-7

Blessed are those who suffer, for they are able to console others who are afflicted and suffering.

1 Peter 2:21

Blessed are the suffering, for they are following in the steps of Christ’s suffering.

Philippians 3:7-11

Blessed are those who suffer, for they know Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10

Blessed are the suffering, for in them dwells the power of Christ.

John 16:22

Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.

 

[R_C]

I would like to get the Catholic perspective, are we to suffer as Christ suffered, or are we already healed through the Holy Spirit and his Blood shed?

Colossians 1:24

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church

Personally we are healed: “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). Yet, Christ chose to willingly give up self and suffer for the sake of others, and it is consequent that, as we are born in Baptism, we will imitate Christ on the way of the cross. Then we will be worthy of the honor of being His servants, the servants of a God who not only became in our likeness, but having called us friends, made us His brothers by giving us in adoption to the Blessed Virgin, His mother (Hebrews 2:17, John 19:26-27).

2 Corinthians 1:3-7

For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

1 Peter 2:21

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Philippians 3:10-11

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

John 16:22

Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.

 

[Patrick1540]

Hi Patrick. Nice to ‘see’ you again.

Just a cursory observation. IMO, 1 Pet 2:24 cuts both ways –

(1) Basically it alludes to our soul being healed spiritually which is the most important aspect of our objective in salvation. We are only temporary sojourners on earth but we look forwards to eternal life, one that really matters. What is it to suffer during our entire life compared to the bliss we attain in eternity in the heavenly kingdom of the Father? By his stripes he takes away our own stripes caused by the torture of eternal punishment due to our sins.

(2) The healing can happen while we are still on this earth. The main reason for this is because of the Lord’s love and compassion for us. It is not enough that He heals us only in the eternal life but there is good reason for us to be healed of our affliction here on earth. Some of these afflictions can become obstacle for us to know, accept and surrender to God sufficiently, we human being weak creatures. God steps a bit further to heal us so that we can be free to really do them.

The principle here is, we cannot love God the way he loves us. In His love for us, God ‘helps’ us to love Him according to how He wants us to. One of the ways to do that would be to release us of our physical burden which can be obstacle for us to love God sufficiently. Physical healing,** if it happens**, therefore, is a grace to help us spiritually in a journey of faith on earth. I could go on and on, but I hope to give a general idea on all this. The main thing is we cannot discount God’s infinite love for us that include even physical, mental, emotional and psychological healing while we are still on earth. Thus by his stripe we are healed; he took away our pain and experienced it himself.

God bless.

Reuben, this is so beautifully put, I read it to my wife and she loves it.God Bless you all for being so good on this topic, I think this thread is totally dead now. You have all touched me.