Are we trying to manipulate Church teachings?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JReducation
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JReducation

Guest
As I go through these threads I find a constant request or demand on the part of many posters. “Show me an authoritative statement about . . .” or “That as not an infallible teaching; therefore . . . “

As I thought about it and went through my own years of study of theology and my many more years teaching theology I realized that compared to the questions that we raise, there are very few answers that are given via authoritative documents such as encyclicals, legal decrees, proclamations and only Ex Cathedra statements. I also realized that popes often speak about a revealed truth, which are obviously infallible, but what they say about it is not necessarily infallible. However, it is authoritative, because it comes from the Vicar of Jesus Christ, the Successor of St. Peter and the Pontiff.

I’ve also noticed that while many condemn “popolatry” they engage in what I call “Thomistic Dissent”. Allow me to explain. Everyone acknowledges that Thomas Aquinas was the Church’s theologian par excellence. However, There are some things that we must remember. First of all, we must remember how Thomas saw himself. He was a simple friar whose writing were the product of a life of intense prayer and service to others. His writings were the product of a life of contemplation. However, Thomas was faithful to the Church and obedient to the papacy. He attempted to answer the most pressing theological questions of history, not to dictate to the Church what she should believe or teach. In fact, Thomas never held a position of authority in the Church. He would be horrified to see how his work is quoted and used against papal teachings. He did not write for this purpose. He was trying to give the Church tools, not dictate to the Church or govern the Church. To use his writings to correct popes, is contrary to Thomas’ intent when he wrote. In addition, we know that Thomas made many theological mistakes. We also know that much of what Thomas wrote never became official teachings of the Church. Ultimately, it was the popes and the councils who defined what Catholics must believe and follow, not Thomas. It is true that they used a great deal from the writings of Thomas, because they were excellent, logical and easy to use. However, the Church also uses other resources, including the popes’ own thoughts on certain points of doctrine and morality.

It would make all of us very comfortable and help us to feel safer if we had an authoritative answer for every contingency that we encounter in the Christian journey. But the fact is that life does not work this way and neither does the Church. Even though the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, she cannot anticipate every possible situation that will arise. Some situations catch her by surprise. When that happens, it falls on those in authority to respond. Often that will be the pope himself, but not always.

The Roman Curia was created for this very reason. Popes cannot stay on top of everything that happens or on top of every question that arises. Popes delegate authority. They allow others to speak for them. These are usually the Prefects of the different congregations and the heads of different departments in the Curia. They also delegate a lot to the synods of bishops, to the Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches and the Synods of those Churches that don’t have a synod. In the Western Church, Pope Benedict has laid aside his title as Patriarch of the West. We’re not really sure what that means for the future, because it has not been explained. But we know that he has delegated a great deal of authority to the local bishops, conferences of bishops, synods of bishops, general chapters of the major religious orders, and different committees.

The question that arises is, how ready are we to cooperate and to accept the authority of these different levels of authority that exist in the Church? Another question is, do we understand that authority does not have to invoke infallibility to command? Just as a parent need not be infallible to govern his home, the Pontiff as the father of the universal Church and the bishop as the father of the local church, have the same authority over their household as parents do in their own homes. Are we willing to obey their authority or do we set ourselves up as authorities evaluating everything they say or ask of us? I think that we have to remember that the only thing that we are not bound to obey is a command to sin.

Moral theology and logic have never said that we are free to disobey unless something is declared infallibly. We must be very careful not to put more restrictions on ecclesial authority than we put on our parents, our government, our military leaders and other authority figures in our lives. Sometimes it seems that this is what we do. We want ecclesial authority to come from the pope, to be infallible, to be commanded, not just encouraged, and we don’t want it to say things differently from how they were said in the past. Sometimes, things have to be said differently, because the way they were said in the past is being misunderstood in the present or the situations and audience was different or simply put, what was said is not binding on the reigning pontiff. A change in position is not a claim that the past was wrong. A change in position simply means that those conditions that existed back then do not exist today. Similar, but new ones exist.

I’d like to invite everyone to search their souls and their consciences and to ask ourselves, are our questions and demands for authoritative statements always reasonable or even honest or are we just looking to find a loophole to support our position? In other words, when we ask for authoritative proof, is it possible that some may be trying to manipulate Church teachings?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
An excellent, compact and condensed, but readily understandable treatise on a segment of the malaise that infests the modern Church. Our highly literate culture depends upon documentary evidence for daily functioning. As well, a highly literate society benefits (or suffers) from an onslaught of competing ideas, both in the public as well as the ecclesial square. Thus has risen a desire for documentation, evidence, proof, in support of one’s own ideas, supplanting the former use of reason, logic and obedience. We are a consumer society in a democratic nation - if not world. Therefore, we assert our rights in the public realm and this unfortunately carries over into our world view. We are as ego-driven as any generation that has gone before. I see the ego as the dimetric opposite of obedience. While modern humility is in short supply, that quality remains one of the most prominent adjectives used in the average Saint’s biography.
 
If it isn’t infallible then I’m at discretion to choose whether I agree or disagree with it. For instance, I believe that the Church is too lenient on what it considers to be a “genuine fast”.

I sometimes feel like I’m one of the few “pragmatic” Catholics here. I live in the real world. Catholics across the world have a hard enough time following infallible doctrines (e.g. the immorality of birth control), as evidenced by the push for priests to speak more about mortal sins and abstaining from receiving communion when not in a state of grace. Calls for Catholics to now follow fallible doctrines is like trying to advocate reading Shakespeare to toddlers who haven’t learned the alphabet: It’s too fast, too soon.

Galileo aptly remarked that “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use”. In the same way, why should people forgo their ability to reason and analyze out of mere obedience to the Church? The Pope disagreed with the war in Libya; I agreed and do agree with the war in Libya - Gaddafi should not be allowed to run scott-free. So essentially I have to give up my own point of view, which I have gained from doing a bit of research, out of mere obedience? If that’s the case, why didn’t God just give the Pope a brain to think for each and every one of us?

I personally believe advocacy for the faithful to follow fallible doctrines is a naive and dangerous route to take. On the naive part, because a significant number of Catholics do not even follow infallible doctrines, let alone fallible ones. On the dangerous route part, it will essentially boil down to a personality little short of scrupulosity: “What does the Church teach about eating at McDonalds?” for instance - it is scarily reminiscent of the years before when the Church wasn’t the most “moral” institution, to put it that way.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
If it isn’t infallible then I’m at discretion to choose whether I agree or disagree with it. For instance, I believe that the Church is too lenient on what it considers to be a “genuine fast”.
No. By nature a statement can be infallible only about eternal unchangeable things, like Trinity, Incarnation, the Mariology. Discipline like fasting do not belong to this category.

Everyone can say, that he or she needs more fasting, and do so. A problem comes when somebody starts to believe that he or she is the proper rule-maker for others. Peter and the subsequent popes are the competent legislators.
 
Do you have any examples of people using St.Thomas’s teaching to contradict the Pope?I’'m not saying there aren’t any I’m just wondering if you know of one specifically.The Magesterium is considered when the Pope makes infallible statements.I imagine if a majority disagrees with what he’s proposing to do he would probably think it over very carefully before comeing to a desission.We are to obey the clergy unless they are in direct violation of the mandate handed by the Church.As you’ve stated they are given much flexibility in carrying out the rules handed down.Exactly oftentimes we have to rely on our own right judgment when making decisions.I suppose there are times when people try to bend the rules for their own advantage but even if they decieve they priest God who is the rightest judge over all cannot be deceived.
 
JR,
Excellent Post.
While I haven’t seen all that much of what you describe, when I do it makes me cringe.
I’m always reminded of Jesus words to the diciples in Mt 23:1-3 about obeying the Pharisees. We know Jesus wasn’t very happy withthese leaders and yet he tells tehe diciples to obey them because they sit on Moses seat. The chair of legitimate authority.
So - Even if Jesus wasn’t happy with the things that the Pharisees were telling the people to “observe and do”, Our King Jesus excpected tehm to do it.

On the other hand, I do agree with the “freedom of conscience” aspect of our faith, and it is good to know what things are “infallibly taught” - that is dogmatic, and which things are not.

Bottom line is that we should always give respect and deference to the teachings of the Church, infallible or not, and should follow those teachings unless there is very good reason not to…and then only on a deeply personal, individual basis (a matter of private conscience).

Peace
James
 
Um, “Mere” obedience to the church?

I wasn’t aware that we are facing a ‘choice’, Bohm, or that ‘reason’ is set up in direct opposition to ‘mere obedience’. . .

I don’t know why it is so HARD for people to see that using one’s reason, examining a question, and determining that the Church is correct on a position, and then CHOOSING to OBEY the Church, is JUST as much a use of ‘reason’ as doing examining a question but determining the Church is ‘wrong’ and deciding to OPPOSE!!!
 
In matters of faith and morals, who would you believe as a Catholic?
 
Um, “Mere” obedience to the church?

I wasn’t aware that we are facing a ‘choice’, Bohm, or that ‘reason’ is set up in direct opposition to ‘mere obedience’. . .

I don’t know why it is so HARD for people to see that using one’s reason, examining a question, and determining that the Church is correct on a position, and then CHOOSING to OBEY the Church, is JUST as much a use of ‘reason’ as doing examining a question but determining the Church is ‘wrong’ and deciding to OPPOSE!!!
Then you’re exactly like me. I don’t believe the Church on fallible matters simply because the Church says so. That’s what I mean by “mere obedience”. It’s a logical fallacy known as “argument from authority”: argumentum ad verecundiam. I only consider Church teaching on fallible matters if itself makes perfect sense to me and thus I will agree with it. But no, I wouldn’t believe the Church for the sake of believing it.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
I must first confess that I am a man who greatly appreciates hiearchy and am often frustrated by the public relations’ branch of the Church’s lack of assertiveness. I must also confess that I would like to see a lot more of the inflexibility that characterised the Church ‘of old.’ This is not to say that I don’t value my ability to think for myself. I thought myself out of various heresies and apostasies and into the Church. I now think quite a bit about Church politics. My greatest contention with the Church publically is that we seem to have become somewhat complacent, too ready to please. May God rebuke me if I am incorrect. Definitive statements are just that, definitive. Of course, critics and detractors will use those as well. There are splinter groups within and surrounding Catholicism that believe certain infallible statements contradict each-other. The most prominent of which seems to be the ‘no salvation outside the Church’ clause. This confuses many, who think the doctrine has somehow changed. Or, perhaps, that we have changed the definition of Church from the Catholic Church to one of a universal body of believers in Christ, and furthermore degenerated it to a lukewarm concession of, anyone who could have believed in Christ is a member of the Church, which in turn is somewhat simillar to the Mormon practise of baptising the dead.
In the end, I think we should heed the Church’s call to follow our own conscience. We have the Bible first of all, and the Catechisms, various Dogmatic Constitutions to help us form that conscience. If we all did these things we wouldn’t likely need constant assertions of Infallibility, we would also be a much more effective Organisation.
 
(Snip)

In the end, I think we should heed the Church’s call to follow our own conscience. We have the Bible first of all, and the Catechisms, various Dogmatic Constitutions to help us form that conscience. If we all did these things we wouldn’t likely need constant assertions of Infallibility, we would also be a much more effective Organisation.
Amen Brother Amen…

One of the main things about the “conscience clause” is that it be a “Well formed” conscience.
If we do more of what you mention above and form our consciences in light of Church teaching, we’d be much better off.

Peace
James
 
We place a lot of stress on the terms “conscience” and “reason”. However, we forget to place stress on the word “authority”. When a police officer tells you to stop and asks you all kinds of questions that you feel are impertinent, you don’t pull out a conscience clause. When the government asks you to pay taxes that you know are going to pay for abortion, war or simply wasted, while you need that money to educate your children, which is a higher good, you don’t pull out a conscience clause. When a parent tells a son or daughter to do something or not to do something, he does not expect the child to pull out a conscience clause.

The same applies to the ecclesial authority. The pope, the curia, the local bishop do not expect us to pull out a conscience clause when they give an order, dispense from a rule, ask us to do something or not to do something. They see themselves as the descendants of the Apostles and with the same authority as the Apostles. Excellent examples are the letters of Paul. Not everything in his letters is infallible teaching. There is a great deal in Paul’s letters that are disciplines that he is imposing on the early Church. However, we don’t question Paul’s authority to do so. Paul remonstrates those who do question him. The early Fathers took issue with those who questioned their right to command and to govern the faithful. That right to command and to govern the faithful has never been abdicated by the Church.

I believe that we have two statements that speak to this. The first is a classic one. We are bound to form our conscience according to the mind of the Church, not according to reason. Pope Benedict made it clear, early in his pontificate, that faith and reason must go together; however, faith must guide reason, not the other way around. We don’t comply with the Church because reasons tells us to do so. We comply with the Church because obedience tells us to do so, just as we comply with the IRS, parents, teachers, police and other authority figures. The good order of society requires that we obey authority. For the same reason, the good order of the Church requires that we obey authority. Our faith tells us that if we obey authority, it is pleasing to God and man, even if authority is mistaken. God is still pleased by our willingness to be humble. Humility, in this case, is evidenced by our acknowledgement of our proper place in the Church and that of the person in authority. Humility is truth. Truth tells me, I’m a member of the faithful and he’s a successor of the Apostles. Clement of Rome made this case in his Epistle to the Corinthians. It is not whether the bishop is right or wrong, it is that he is the bishop. Obviously, Clement understood that no bishop can command sin.

We cannot reduce the bishop, the pope or his delegate to servants who are subject to our scrutiny and evaluation. To do so is to reduce the holy Apostles and the Fathers of the Church. There are areas where the Church allows us room to use common sense. There are other areas where the Church expects to be heard, otherwise, why speak? The wars in Iraq and Libya are great examples. If the Church does not expect to be obeyed by her faithful, why bother making a comment at all? The Holy See made the observations that it made, for the benefit of all and trusting that Catholics would take it to heart and demand that our governments rethink the morality and the consequences of such actions. The Church was not concerned with infallibility. She was concerned with a moral question and consequences to innocent people. She expects Catholics to think the same way and to raise the same questions: “What is morally right?” In addition, “Will these actions help or aggravate the conditions of the innocent?” During the Kuwait situation, the Church was very clear that it was unjustifiable to invade another nation and she supported those who came to the aid of Kuwait.

We have to look at the Church’s reasoning, which is not always going to be explained for us in bite-size pieces. Often, the Holy Father, the Curia or the local bishop will speak based on a concept of moral law, a doctrine, a concept of Canon Law or even a philosophical concept, and they expect the faithful to assent and to find the concepts that drive the statement. They don’t want to go around spouting off philosophy or theology or Canon Law to support their every statement. They assume that you and I will either assent or will research these things. As Pope Benedict said, we will use faith to guide our reason, not the other way around.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Do you have any examples of people using St.Thomas’s teaching to contradict the Pope?I’'m not saying there aren’t any I’m just wondering if you know of one specifically…
St. Thomas said that the only hands that should touch the consecrated host are the consecrated hands of the priest.

Many people use this citation from St. Thomas to support their argument for COTT. However, St. Thomas is not talking about the same thing. The Church has always made use of deacons. The consecration of hands is not part of the ordination rite of the deacon. It’s part of the ordination right of the priest. St. Thomas knew this. However, there was a situation regarding desecration of the Holy Species. It is much more likely that Thomas may have been speaking about this.

In any case, the Church never stopped deacons from distributing communion, nor did she start to consecrate deacons’ hands. However, she has always said that the deacon is one of the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

Here is just one example of pitting poor Thomas against the Vatican and the bishops. Thomas would have been horrified to know this. I’ve always said that if we’re going to quote the great teachers of the Church, we should also espouse their great humility. To adopt their words and not their attitude does them and their words a great disservice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If you mean that we should take everything the Pope says without using our God given capacity to think as truth then you ignore the many warnings of the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

**Matthew 24:24 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)**24

For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

So pardon me if I continue to use my brain and ask for some proof even from the Pope.

If the Pope told me that Christ said we must all carry out cross so we should all submit to having a small microchip the shape of a crucifix on our forehead or hand . I would be outa here and into the Orthodox Church. 😃

Like wise for anyone else I would expect them to outline there beliefs properly and if it departed from what has been clearly handed down and drifts into dangerous New Age ideas like all religions are basically the same and other dangerous heracies I would be the same if it became Catholic Doctrine.

As it happens I do want to start a thread about Ecumanism and what it means or should mean once I can think of the right way to word it.😃
 
If you mean that we should take everything the Pope says without using our God given capacity to think as truth then you ignore the many warnings of the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

**Matthew 24:24 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)**24

For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

So pardon me if I continue to use my brain and ask for some proof even from the Pope.

If the Pope told me that Christ said we must all carry out cross so we should all submit to having a small microchip the shape of a crucifix on our forehead or hand . I would be outa here and into the Orthodox Church. 😃

Like wise for anyone else I would expect them to outline there beliefs properly and if it departed from what has been clearly handed down and drifts into dangerous New Age ideas like all religions are basically the same and other dangerous heracies I would be the same if it became Catholic Doctrine.

As it happens I do want to start a thread about Ecumanism and what it means or should mean once I can think of the right way to word it.😃
lol, I wish CAF had a “like” button 🙂 😛

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk
 
No.

Some post here to agitate against something the Church teaches.

Some post here to agitate Catholics in general.

Some post things they heard or think are true and sincerely want answers.

The internet can be a good place to find answers, but answers should be supported by Church documents.

How many here read a Catholic newspaper or magazine? Answers are available and quick, 2 minute responses are not always the best.

On the anonymous internet, anyone can post anything anywhere, sometimes causing confusion.

And please, when in doubt, ask a priest.

This is not a management issue where the Church needs to engage Catholics more vigorously. Catholics need to take the time to learn Church teaching. There is the Catechism. Yes, it’s big but there’s no need to read it in one or two sittings.

I think impatience brought on by finding anything online in under 0.5 seconds has made some people resistant to taking the time to study and learn.

Peace,
Ed
 
If you mean that we should take everything the Pope says without using our God given capacity to think as truth then you ignore the many warnings of the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

**Matthew 24:24 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)**24

For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.
You first have to show that the Holy Father fits this description.
So pardon me if I continue to use my brain and ask for some proof even from the Pope.
We can ask, but we’re not always going to get it. Often we’ll get, “Because I’m Peter and I say so.” It has been done many times.
If the Pope told me that Christ said we must all carry out cross so we should all submit to having a small microchip the shape of a crucifix on our forehead or hand . I would be outa here and into the Orthodox Church. 😃
I think you’re safe there. However, you may find that Eastern Patriarchs, Catholic and Orthodox are much more controlling than the Roman Pontiff is. They don’t tolerate being questioned too well. It’s not part of their culture to confront authority. It has to do with authority not infallibility. They have a very specail respect for authority.
Like wise for anyone else I would expect them to outline there beliefs properly and if it departed from what has been clearly handed down and drifts into dangerous New Age ideas like all religions are basically the same and other dangerous heracies I would be the same if it became Catholic Doctrine.
But they have never said such a thing. What they have said is very different from what people read into their statements.
As it happens I do want to start a thread about Ecumanism and what it means or should mean once I can think of the right way to word it.😃
A good place to start would be to use the document on Ecumenism. It’s very good, very clear and succinct.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If you mean that we should take everything the Pope says without using our God given capacity to think as truth then you ignore the many warnings of the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

**Matthew 24:24 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)**24

For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

So pardon me if I continue to use my brain and ask for some proof even from the Pope.

If the Pope told me that Christ said we must all carry out cross so we should all submit to having a small microchip the shape of a crucifix on our forehead or hand . I would be outa here and into the Orthodox Church. 😃

Like wise for anyone else I would expect them to outline there beliefs properly and if it departed from what has been clearly handed down and drifts into dangerous New Age ideas like all religions are basically the same and other dangerous heracies I would be the same if it became Catholic Doctrine.

As it happens I do want to start a thread about Ecumanism and what it means or should mean once I can think of the right way to word it.😃
How realistic is it to think that a Pope might possibly say that we should submit to having microchips on our forehead or hand? It is very unrealistic to think such a thing. Also, you mentioned the possible departure of beliefs from what has clearly been handed down. But that’s one of the current problems I see today. What we THINK has been clearly handed down is not always what has been truly been handed down. How many traditionalists have been influenced by those would and have who pulled teachings of the Popes, Doctors, encyclicals and other sources, out of context, and put a different interpretation on them from what was intended at the time?
 
I must first confess that I am a man who greatly appreciates hiearchy and am often frustrated by the public relations’ branch of the Church’s lack of assertiveness. I must also confess that I would like to see a lot more of the inflexibility that characterised the Church ‘of old.’ This is not to say that I don’t value my ability to think for myself. I thought myself out of various heresies and apostasies and into the Church. I now think quite a bit about Church politics. My greatest contention with the Church publically is that we seem to have become somewhat complacent, too ready to please.

During my early adulthood I left the church, when I married I made a decision to return, one I thank God for constantly, the difference in the Church’s ‘lack of assertiveness’ from the time I left 'til returning was astonishing, I quickly became aware that there had been many changes and from my opinion very few for the better. Bring back the Church ‘of old’.
 
JR, this is a great post.

It’s all about authority in my mind. Since my early stint in Army, I have been hierarchically biased and a believer in accountability and authority.

If your conscience is “well formed” in a way that the Church would approve of, then I think the implication is that you will independently arrive at the same conclusion that the Church fathers arrived at on the various subjects in question. I think that’s valid.

I don’t want to even entertain a position contrary to Church teaching. So, I search out the teaching of the Church, and try to adapt it, apply it, to whatever questions I have. I am not sure a “good Catholic” can ever hold a position contrary to the Church. The question is finding what the Church actually teaches on a specific topic. Thus the requests for citations and authoritative documents.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top