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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
Do you have any proof of this?
I am not asking this in a rude, confrontentational way, simply a humble, inquisitive way. I really am curious.
It just does not seem biological.
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I am not asking this in a rude, confrontentational way, simply a humble, inquisitive way. I really am curious.
It just does not seem biological.
M
marcadam
Guest
I still AnonymousOne gave the most comprehensive and sensible advice, but I thought that the “influencing actions” issue might be a point of difference. On one extreme we have this:
This is by no means true for everyone. We are talking about biology, psychology and sexuality here, so we can’t say definitively that every man will be able to completely avoid nocturnal emission, even by focussing on God and guarding his purity. The idea that any given person could “control their dreams” by waking activities seems… a little over the top. This might be a point of consel for someone having an extreme problem with wet dreams, but is by no means required. The essential point is this: unless you are consenting to waking actions for the purpose of influencing your subconscious into lustful thoughts, there is no sin in wet dreams, even the “half-asleep” ones.
But on the other hand there is this:
Mirror Mirror:
The point is this: this thread is devolving into silliness. What we’re attempting to pin down simply can’t be, since we’re dealing with biology and psychology. There can be vast differences between any number of otherwise “normal” men; there really is no defining “normal”. In any case, no such deviation from “normal” would be necessarily immoral anyway.
AnonymousOne did a very good job on elucidating the moral question, which deftly takes into account natural biological differences. Can we just leave it at that?
Daniel Marsh said:
This is by no means true for everyone. We are talking about biology, psychology and sexuality here, so we can’t say definitively that every man will be able to completely avoid nocturnal emission, even by focussing on God and guarding his purity. The idea that any given person could “control their dreams” by waking activities seems… a little over the top. This might be a point of consel for someone having an extreme problem with wet dreams, but is by no means required. The essential point is this: unless you are consenting to waking actions for the purpose of influencing your subconscious into lustful thoughts, there is no sin in wet dreams, even the “half-asleep” ones.
But on the other hand there is this:
Mirror Mirror:
Again, no. While wet dreams are not sinful if not somehow influenced in by actions taken by the conscious will, neither are they preordained necessarily by our biology. The epididymis is quite capable of “recycling” unused mature sperm (their lifetime in the man’s body is unknown), so there is no absolute need for wet dreams. Many single, chaste men can go for a long time without one.
The point is this: this thread is devolving into silliness. What we’re attempting to pin down simply can’t be, since we’re dealing with biology and psychology. There can be vast differences between any number of otherwise “normal” men; there really is no defining “normal”. In any case, no such deviation from “normal” would be necessarily immoral anyway.
AnonymousOne did a very good job on elucidating the moral question, which deftly takes into account natural biological differences. Can we just leave it at that?
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wjp984
Guest
I don’t even think masturbation should be a sin but the fact of a matter is it is and what I think really doesn’t matter in ragards to the truth. However, wet dreams certainly would never be a sin. Perhaps wet dreams might even make it easier to not sin in that reagard since you don’t completely abstain from it since I think most people remember those kind of dreams.
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Mirror_Mirror
Guest
I used to think that masturbation should not be a sin so that makes me curious why you think that it should not be a sin.
Do you really understand what masturbation is in the eyes of God? I think if you understood that then you would feel differently. It is self love that turns you away from God, not focusing on Him. God created sex for a man and a woman in marriage. To give themselves to each other. How is masturbation a part of that? Giving to yourself. Where is God in that? Just curious
J
JOHNYJ
Guest
NO ! simple answer.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi Marc, the biology part can be a reflex and does not need an erotic dream. So, if one’s response in not the result of thinking about that which is not pure then it is pure biology and thus not sin. But, if it is related to erotic dreams which we do have control over by the displine and grace of viewing that which is pure, good ( phil 4:8 ).
So, I would agree if the cause is strickly biological or stress related it would not be sin.
But, if the event is related to thinking on the wrong things, then it is sin. And, we have control over what we view.
Psalms 119, recommends that we mediate on God’s word.
Psalm 119:9-11 (New International Version)
9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.
10 I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.
11** I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.**
Philippians 4:8 (New International Version)
whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
that which is praiseworthy would include God’s Word and any examples of living a godly life, like saints.
goaskalice.columbia.edu/0863.html
So, I would agree if the cause is strickly biological or stress related it would not be sin.
But, if the event is related to thinking on the wrong things, then it is sin. And, we have control over what we view.
Psalms 119, recommends that we mediate on God’s word.
Psalm 119:9-11 (New International Version)
9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.
10 I seek you with all my heart;
do not let me stray from your commands.
11** I have hidden your word in my heart
that I might not sin against you.**
Philippians 4:8 (New International Version)
whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
that which is praiseworthy would include God’s Word and any examples of living a godly life, like saints.
M
marcadam
Guest
Daniel,
I’m all for guarding one’s purity, but erotic dreams can happen in spite of that. I can’t quite see how your scripture quotes apply to the question at hand.
Also:
Daniel Marsh:
I’m all for guarding one’s purity, but erotic dreams can happen in spite of that. I can’t quite see how your scripture quotes apply to the question at hand.
Also:
Daniel Marsh:
This sentence kind of trailed off without a conclusion (there’s an “if,” but no “then”). If you’re implying that a nocturnal emission that occurs even as the result of an erotic dream even in a half-waking state, is sinful, then I’m afraid you are mistaken. Please go back and read this, because it is prefectly sensible and comprehensive.
C
Celtic_FC
Guest
I have one every two weeks minimum…no matter what I do before I go to bed. It’s the way God made me.
O
Ortho
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
Meditating changes biological functions?
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Ortho, you are misreading me. Maybe you did not get far enough into the thread.
Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a girl.
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Basically, if we feed the spirit junk food during the day, then our spirit dwells on the garbage at night.
It is possible to have “wet dreams” without having the erotic dreams. It is a matter of depriving our sin nature on a daily basis ( Rom 12:1-3 ).
In short, the erections that are result of purely biological – emotional causes are not sin. Those that involve erotic dreams are sin because that indicates that one is not killing their sin nature on a daily basis and is not walking in the spirit ( gal 5 ).
If we want our dreams to be pure at night then we must make our thinking pure during the day. Our subconensence is merely a reflection of our life.
Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes
not to look lustfully at a girl.
Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Basically, if we feed the spirit junk food during the day, then our spirit dwells on the garbage at night.
It is possible to have “wet dreams” without having the erotic dreams. It is a matter of depriving our sin nature on a daily basis ( Rom 12:1-3 ).
In short, the erections that are result of purely biological – emotional causes are not sin. Those that involve erotic dreams are sin because that indicates that one is not killing their sin nature on a daily basis and is not walking in the spirit ( gal 5 ).
If we want our dreams to be pure at night then we must make our thinking pure during the day. Our subconensence is merely a reflection of our life.
A
AnonymousOne
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
If a guy has an erotic dream due to impure thoughts he entertained while he is awake, then the sin was the impure thoughts he entertained while awake, NOT the dream.
For example, if a man entertains lustful thoughts on a Saturday afternoon, but immediately repents and goes to confession. That night he has an erotic dream. He has not committed another sin by having this dream.
Everyone on this board agrees that it is a sin to entertain lustful thoughts while awake. No one is arguing otherwise. We all agree that doing so may result in erotic dreams. But the dream is not the sin.
The OP’s question was whether or not wet dreams are a sin. The answer is a clear, unequivocal “NO”. There are circumstances that surround this question, though, that may involve sin. And obviously, willful entertainment of lustful thoughts is one of them.
Daniel, you are saying that something is a sin that simply can’t be a sin. It is not possible to commit a sin when one is asleep!!! Period.
If a guy has an erotic dream due to impure thoughts he entertained while he is awake, then the sin was the impure thoughts he entertained while awake, NOT the dream.
For example, if a man entertains lustful thoughts on a Saturday afternoon, but immediately repents and goes to confession. That night he has an erotic dream. He has not committed another sin by having this dream.
Everyone on this board agrees that it is a sin to entertain lustful thoughts while awake. No one is arguing otherwise. We all agree that doing so may result in erotic dreams. But the dream is not the sin.
The OP’s question was whether or not wet dreams are a sin. The answer is a clear, unequivocal “NO”. There are circumstances that surround this question, though, that may involve sin. And obviously, willful entertainment of lustful thoughts is one of them.
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wjp984
Guest
Mirror Mirror:
The only reason I can think of how I can justify how masturbation might not be a sin, or at least not a mortal sin, is the concept of addiction. Like anything else that is pleasureful, bilogiclally, humans are subject to being addicts. Now take away what is morally allowed to do with a girl and add in the fact that people are not getting married until later ages. So I think that while I can no longer defend the act of masterbation as not being sinful, I can make an argument for it simply being a venial very hard to control sinful act that might not even be freely chosen 100% due to the conceprt of addiction. Unlike alcohol, drugs, gambling, and ayhting materialistic addictive however, where one has to willingly expose themselves to the sinful addiction, masterbation I would argue is somewhat different since we are given the act and like it or not expesed to it thought a wet dream if nothig else and therefore there is no way to avoid the presence of this addiction. So what do you think of my modified version. Oh, and yes you can all say that through prayer one can stop but I think I can still reasonably at least make the argument for a venial sin since althought you may disagree the fact that it might not be 100% freely chosen would suppory my stance on the issue.
I have though about this and truth be told I don’t think I ever really thought it wasn’t a sin and simply wanted to try and rationalize and justify to the point where I can tricl myself into believing certain things are not sinful. However what about this:I used to think that masturbation should not be a sin so that makes me curious why you think that it should not be a sin.
Do you really understand what masturbation is in the eyes of God? I think if you understood that then you would feel differently. It is self love that turns you away from God, not focusing on Him. God created sex for a man and a woman in marriage. To give themselves to each other. How is masturbation a part of that? Giving to yourself. Where is God in that? Just curious
The only reason I can think of how I can justify how masturbation might not be a sin, or at least not a mortal sin, is the concept of addiction. Like anything else that is pleasureful, bilogiclally, humans are subject to being addicts. Now take away what is morally allowed to do with a girl and add in the fact that people are not getting married until later ages. So I think that while I can no longer defend the act of masterbation as not being sinful, I can make an argument for it simply being a venial very hard to control sinful act that might not even be freely chosen 100% due to the conceprt of addiction. Unlike alcohol, drugs, gambling, and ayhting materialistic addictive however, where one has to willingly expose themselves to the sinful addiction, masterbation I would argue is somewhat different since we are given the act and like it or not expesed to it thought a wet dream if nothig else and therefore there is no way to avoid the presence of this addiction. So what do you think of my modified version. Oh, and yes you can all say that through prayer one can stop but I think I can still reasonably at least make the argument for a venial sin since althought you may disagree the fact that it might not be 100% freely chosen would suppory my stance on the issue.
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wjp984
Guest
couragerc.org/pastoral_problem_of_masturbation.htm
found that link in another thread and it seems to jsutify my reasingsd I have come to.
found that link in another thread and it seems to jsutify my reasingsd I have come to.
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marcadam
Guest
How many of us have to look back and admit this about any habitual sin? How many of us have the courage to do so?
What you have here is the difference between moral gravity and culpability. Masturbation is objectively gravely immoral. However, one’s culpability for any particular immoral act can be lessened for any number of external particulars, including knowledge and whether it is freely chosen. Addiction tends to rationalize away the former, and eats away at the latter.
Short answer: correct.
V
vluvski
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
I’m sorry, this is incorrect. You are no more responsible for dreamt impurity than you are for a dreamt murder.
D
Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Smile, I am saying the dreams are a reflection of what you feed your spirit and mind on. You are responsible for what you feed your spirit and mind with. head shake. I can see how you could misunderstand.
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wjp984
Guest
I am just curious. Are there any medical problems that can happen if one were to try and abstain from masterbation even if it means potentially going a several years before eventually getting married. I know there are medical problems that can develop in females for lack of masterbation or sex where the vagina closes up but what scares me is if all of a sudden a male who had somehow managed to go several years without doing anything sinful and finalyl got married. What if all of a sudden now the male was impotent or has erectile disfunction since they didn’t use it for so long. That is a scary thought.
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AugustineFL
Guest
No, there are not medical problems associated with not having intercourse or masturbating. (Okay, I think some study(s) show a link between frequent ejaculation and prostate health or something; but I’m not sure how reliable that study actually is.) The body is designed to have nocturnal emission every so often; so if needs be it gets taken care of then. Trust me, it won’t be years before the chaste male has an erection. It’s going to happen every so often no matter what. That organ isn’t going to forget how to do it’s job when the time comes.
About a woman’s vagina closing up from lack of sexual stimulation…um…I really don’t think that is true.
Think of it this way. Christ isn’t going to ask us all to do something that is harmful to our bodies.
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AndyF
Guest
No.
Andy
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wjp984
Guest
well I saw it on one of those aol news things that come up when you sign on to instant messenger. So you amy be right since they probaby aren’t 100% credible.
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