Are women really weaker than men?

[EasterJoy]

The Vatican did not send out a letter to the whole church with a warning against radical feminism, but a warning to a specific group because of it’s obvious and loud issues. The LCWR are a serious problem, but not one that exists everywhere as you seem to imagine.

Also, the Vatican was warning the LCWR, not all the women religious as a group. The LCWR does not speak for all women religious any more than the teachers’ unions speak the mind of all teachers. To say otherwise is rash judgment of the highest degree.

The Sisters of St. Mary of Oregon are part of the LCWR. I don’t know every one of them, but the ones I do know are light years from being radical feminists. They are traditional Catholic women who have dedicated their lives to holiness and the work of the Church. They are not among those causing these problems, and they do not deserve to be vilified or connected with those whom the Vatican found worthy of correction.

Even within the orders that have a majority of members that publicly and wrongly oppose some teaching of the Church, there are likely to be members in those, too, who do not do any such thing. Their fidelity deserves to be recognized in conversations like this, particularly since they obviously maintain it while under considerable pressure to do otherwise.

 

[Baelor]

She homeschools and teaches the lives of the saints daily.

For families with kids in schools, it would then be permissible for the mother to step outside the house, maybe even have a part-time job.

I believe it is the ideal way to raise a family. I am not judging anyone who does not do this…I am simply agreeing with Portrait that Scripture and patristics lends itself to this praxis.

The Church has not institutionally declared this to be the case, nor has it established any moral guidelines thereupon. Thus, your belief of what is best for your family is probably correct, but not universally applicable to all families.

 

[Mickey]

I have not been catechized by nuns. I am also not unique.

Some of the nuns are quite traditional and solid…but the Vatican did not call for reform for nothing.

Why is not okay for a little one to tag along to the accounting firm

Now you are being silly.

 

[Mickey]

For families with kids in schools, it would then be permissible for the mother to step outside the house, maybe even have a part-time job.

As I said…I am not the judge of how one raises their family. You have been very defensive throughout this thread.

The Church has not institutionally declared this to be the case,

Institutionally declared?

I think Portrait laid the case quite nicely through Scripture.

 

[thewanderer]

My wife is a stay at home mom…period. She homeschools and teaches the lives of the saints daily. We pray as a family three times a day. We eat dinner together and pray before all meals. We attend Liturgy and participate in the sacraments including frequent confession. We stay very close to the monasteries. I take off work on major feast days so that we can attend Liturgy. Could we be in a higher income bracket if my wife worked? Yes. But we chose to make sacrifices…and we would not have it any other way. I believe it is the ideal way to raise a family. I am not judging anyone who does not do this…I am simply agreeing with Portrait that Scripture and patristics lends itself to this praxis.

And I admire you and your wife for doing so. For what its worth, I am hoping to be able to be a stay at home mother as well once I am married, as I also believe that it is usually the best for a family, However, I also recognize that it is not always possible, and even that in some extremely rare cases may actually be more detrimental.

And I answered you. The little ones do the charity with the mother to learn a proper Christian example.

I think you missed the point of my question. I am asking for at least a rough estimate of how much time a mother is allowed to spend apart from her family. Yes, it is possible for a mother to do charity with her children present, but it is also possible for her to do charitable actions while not with her family. If there is some certain amount of time beyond which a wife should not be apart from her family, then this is true no matter what her excuse for being apart from her family is. I assume you would have a problem with a mother who spent 40 hours a week doing charity without bringing her children along. My question is what length of time becomes too long away from the familly? Portrait has suggested 3 hours as the max per week a wife is allowed to be away from her family. He has understood my question and given me an answer. If you try to answer me, please do the same, if you do not have a set lenght of time, perhaps you could close the gap of what is ok and what isn’t. Obviously you do not agree with a 40+ hour work week, is there any other length of time that you believe is obviously unacceptable? Is there any length of time that you are willing to say is ok, even if its not the exact line of division?

 

[EasterJoy]

Some of the nuns are quite traditional and solid…but the Vatican did not call for reform for nothing.

I fail to see what the wink means.

There were people at the organizational head of the LCWR who needed the Vatican to make public correction of public statements. Whether the numbers of rank-and-file members in the organization who believed the “party line” of these leaders was large or small, the leaders needed correction because they were making grossly inappropriate statements from an influential position within the Church.

Back to the beginning question, though…this issue between the LCWR and the Vatican does not have to do with whether women are weaker than men or not. The LCWR is in error about dogmatic teachings about faith and morals, and these are not questions that hinge on whether or not men are stronger than women. They hinge on what is freedom borne of human dignity and what is license to do evil. Some in that organization are thoroughly messed up about that. I don’t doubt that they’re well-meaning, but they’re still wrong.

 

[Walking_Home]

Baelor:

For families with kids in schools, it would then be permissible for the mother to step outside the house, maybe even have a part-time job.

As I said…I am not the judge of how one raises their family. You have been very defensive throughout this thread.
Institutionally declared?

Baelor:

The Church has not institutionally declared this to be the case,

I think Portrait laid the case quite nicely through Scripture.

---

Like a “sola scriptura” protestant.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

About a week ago TheRealJuliane told me that she thinks that I will be Catholic someday. I took that as a very sweet compliment. However, even if I did suddenly believe in God, the Trinity, etc I could never in good conscious join the Catholic church. I am a strong, educated, intelligent, ambitious woman and those are things I want to pass on to my children. It seems like women like that have to fight for a place in the church. Or at least that’s what I’ve gathered from this thread and others like it.

 

[thewanderer]

Dear thewanderer,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

All I can say, dear sister, is that working outside of the home for a married woman, in a voluntary or paid capacity, should be kept to the bear minimum, certainly no more than three hours a week.

Goodbye for now as I am going ‘off air’. May you and all other contributors to the thread enjoy the rest of your day. God bless you all, dearly beloved.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

Thank you very much for your reply Portrait.

I have a follow up question, do you believe it is wrong for parents to send their children to school? Do you believe that grade schools are inherently wrong and should not exist? Is the idea of a Catholic Grade school an oxymorom? It seems that in order to be consistant with your position you would have to hold these things for schools seperate a mother and her family for far more than 3 hours a week.

 

[Mickey]

And I admire you and your wife for doing so. For what its worth, I am hoping to be able to be a stay at home mother as well once I am married, as I also believe that it is usually the best for a family,

May God bless you abundantly. I will pray for you.

I am asking for at least a rough estimate of how much time a mother is allowed to spend apart from her family.

But don’t you see? I have answered over and over again. For my family…the answer is zero. My little one is always with mom…and we do virtually everything as a family when I am home from work.

 

[Mickey]

Like a “sola scriptura” protestant.

I have been on this forum for many years and it still saddens me when I see this ad hominem used… instead of any fruitful dialogue.

 

[Mickey]

I am a strong, educated, intelligent, ambitious woman

I hope you reconsider. Those traits could serve the Church well.

 

[Mickey]

I fail to see what the wink means.

Sorry. I did not mean to offend you with a wink. It simply means that the Vatican reccgnized there was a problem…and it is not a small problem. Thank God they addressed it.

 

[thewanderer]

May God bless you abundantly. I will pray for you.
But don’t you see? I have answered over and over again. For my family…the answer is zero. My little one is always with mom…and we do virtually everything as a family when I am home from work.

I guess you have missed the point of my question. I am not asking about your family specifically, I am asking about the general rule that you hold that women should not work apart from the family. If you believe this is true because they spend too much time away from their family you must have some general way of determining what is too much time away from their family, which you then apply to your particular family to know the limits of what is ok and what isn’t. One way to help figure out what your understanding of this is to ask specific questions, maybe I will try it this way.
Is it morally wrong for a wife to spend
1 hours a week
2 hours a week
3 hours a week
4 hours a week
5 hours a week
10 hours a week
15 hours a week
20 hours a week
30 hours a week
apart from her family?

If you believe the amount of time a wife may morally spend apart from her family is a set limit, the above questions should help narrow down where that limit is.

If you believe the amount of time a wife may morally spend apart from her family is not set to a specific number of hourss but depends upon some other factor, what is the other factor upon which it depends?

Ok, I think another way of explaining why I am asking this question is this.

You put forward a rule to be followed by all wives.
You: “Wives should not work outside the home”
Me: “Why must they not work outside the home?”
You: “Because they should not spend too much time away from their families” (I realize you have not yet said this outright, but I am assuming this is your explanation as you did not give a different one when asked)
Me: “Ah! So the real rule is that wives must not spend too much time apart from their families!!”
You: “That is correct” (again inference of your position)
Me: “Now I am confused, I do not understand what this rule is. How am I to know what is “too much” time away from the family. There is no way I can follow this rule if I do not know how to determine what actions follow it and what actions don’t. Can you please explain this to me?”
You: ". . .

It is this last line in the conversation I am looking for. If you want to give people a rule to follow, you must make sure they know how to follow the rule.

 

[Baelor]

Now you are being silly.

So, it is fine!

Institutionally declared?

I think Portrait laid the case quite nicely through Scripture.

And my rebuttal was sound vis-a-vis Catholic understanding of the role of Scripture and the authority of the Church.

The point remains that not anyone who agrees with Portrait, not to mention Portrait himself, has actually produced any authoritative Catholic document that supports his position. That is very telling.

About a week ago TheRealJuliane told me that she thinks that I will be Catholic someday. I took that as a very sweet compliment. However, even if I did suddenly believe in God, the Trinity, etc I could never in good conscious join the Catholic church. I am a strong, educated, intelligent, ambitious woman and those are things I want to pass on to my children. It seems like women like that have to fight for a place in the church. Or at least that’s what I’ve gathered from this thread and others like it.

Please note that these posters are not in line with Catholic teaching. They do not believe what the Church teaches.

I have been on this forum for many years and it still saddens me when I see this ad hominem used… instead of any fruitful dialogue.

Ooooh…so close. This is not actually an ad hominem.

Let us define the fallacy as a legal dictionary (West’s) does, viz. “Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.”

The claim in question was that the claim that Portrait argued like a sola scriptura Protestant is an appeal to personal considerations, but is in fact relevant because the considerations affect the substance of the argument. Portrait’s claim is essentially that of a sola scriptura Protestant, a theological understanding of Scripture that the Church explicitly rejects.

Therefore, because the statement is in fact a summary of the argument, it is relevant and in turn not an ad hominem attack.

 

[thewanderer]

Micky, let me just add that if you are not presenting this as a moral rule that wives are obliged to follow, then that is a completely different story.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking_Home:

Like a “sola scriptura” protestant.

I have been on this forum for many years and it still saddens me when I see this ad hominem used… instead of any fruitful dialogue.

---

It has already been pointed out – in the thread to which I prior gave the link to – that “Portrait” and scripture – is in line with protestant “sola scriptura”. Just like he is in this thread.

 

[Mickey]

It has already been pointed out

Yes. It’s an ad hominem that you enjoy using over and over again. How sad.

 

[Mickey]

Ooooh…so close.

Time to grow up kids.

 

[Baelor]

Time to grow up kids.

Talk about an ad hominem.