Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
That’s because obedience is easy to define but ‘love’ is more ambiguous.

For instance, let’s say a man says that he loves his wife and kids and actually believes that. But after work he gets drunk at the bar every night and then goes home and beats those same people.

Now does he really love them or not?
Does it matter?

Moreover, the law and culture have often demanded that wives obey their husbands (giving husbands substantial legal and social power over their wives) but virtually no laws anywhere demand that a man love his wife.

i think you just found the law saying the man should love his wife, the biblical law. And you previous concern i think love is shown by actions. Maybe i way to understand what paul means when he say husband should love is by looking at the way he describes love 1cor 13. Look at that passage and tell me if love allows for a sceneria where another is oppressed. This is how i see it.
Ubenedictus

Even assuming that you’re right, a law that’s never enforced (as this one has not been) is in practice the same as having no law at all.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
I frankly see something a bit disturbing about the idea of a woman seeing her husband as her new Daddy.

PS-Sorry everyone, I just noticed Nilla Bean is Banned and therefore cannot reply.

have you heard about the phase ‘‘sugar daddy’’?
Ubenedictus

Yes, what’s your point?
Do you approve of rich men keeping mistresses?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It does if the husband commands the wife to never question him.
If the husband is firmly in charge, then the relationship between husband and wife is not a partnership but more like master and slave or soldier and general.

read 1cor 13 again, an tell me if you think that a man who commands his wife to a doormat is truly a loving husband.
Ubenedictus

So what?
If he’s in charge he can do what he wants.
Including defining love in those terms (remember, as the head the man is considered leader of the domestic church).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

i doubt if this is what paul was talking about. We usually look at slavery through the eyes of sex slaves and black slaves, i dare to think that slavery wasnt alway that abusive. I donot justify it.
Ubenedictus

But that’s not what you said yesterday.
You justified slavery in the post below:

Yesterday, 7:04 pm
FaithBuild18
Junior Member Join Date: July 27, 2010
Location: America
Posts: 228
Religion: Catholic

Re: Are women still considered in a “state of subjection?”

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It also says ‘slaves obey your masters.’
Should we respect that teaching too

Yeah actually I think we should, if slavery still existed that is. At least this particular line you’ve quoted, certainly rings in harmony with Matthew 5:39-42.

“39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

This of course is not saying slavery is a great thing anymore than it’s saying theft is a great thing anymore than it’s saying spousal abuse is a great thing. Of course the exploitation of slavery is morally deplorable, as is the exploitation of any power, be it in the household or in political office. It’s simply saying that this is what you do if you want to be like Christ. God will not punish you for some other guy making you suffer. Redemption and mercy are found when we suffer in such ways, and if we don’t succumb to the temptation of retaliation, God will give us grace.

Submitting to your husbands, as the bible commands, will always bring you grace. The Lord does not grant women grace only when submitting to their husbands or to the Lord is convenient for the woman. Similarly he does not give man grace only when submitting to the Lord is convenient. God gives us grace when we obey him at ALL TIMES, regardless of how hard it strikes us, how close to death it brings us, or how little money we get in return. It’s those difficult times, not the easy times, when our submission to God grants us the redemption necessary for eternal life.

Remember there is much more at stake here beyond our own earthly material/emotional satisfactions.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It does unfortunately.
Sex slavery is a growing problem in the modern world (which is related to the shortage of girls in places like China) and Africa never completely lost the institution.

So you support slavery then?

i doubt if this is what paul was talking about. We usually look at slavery through the eyes of sex slaves and black slaves, i dare to think that slavery wasnt alway that abusive. I donot justify it.
Ubenedictus

If Saint Paul didn’t account for sex slaves and slaves that were abused like Southern blacks in the 19th century then he was not nearly as smart as people usually give him credit for being.

Female slaves have always been raped by their masters, and its usually been taken for granted.
How do you think that the African-American population (except for those that actually came from Africa in the last couple generations) got so light-skinned?
Its certainly not because of the American nation’s proud history of interracial marriage

Moreover, Roman slaves were being killed for sport (such as the gladiators) in Saint Paul’s era, so he would have no excuse for not knowing that slaves were often treated inhumanely and with malice.

 

[LucyLight]

So long as what I say is an accurate representation of biblical and Catholic teaching, I don’t really care if makes people question the Church.

In fact, I hope it does make people question the Church. If you are not ready to try to submit to Church doctrine, or refuse to admit that submission to Her doctrine is even necessary, then you are not yet ready to be a Catholic. RCIA or even Confirmation is not something candidates should take lightly.

Because It’s not an accurate representation of the Church. You should be concerned if your words turn people off to the Church. Pulling a bunch of lines out of scripture and putting them together to try to make the case for something is what people do who believe in Sola Scriptura. The problem with this is that if you look hard enough you can make the case for just about anything. I would tell someone who was going through RCIA to stay away from these forums.

 

[severus68]

Because It’s not an accurate representation of the Church. You should be concerned if your words turn people off to the Church. Pulling a bunch of lines out of scripture and putting them together to try to make the case for something is what people do who believe in Sola Scriptura. The problem with this is that if you look hard enough you can make the case for just about anything. I would tell someone who was going through RCIA to stay away from these forums.

Very well said.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Saint Paul was speaking in the context of a society where women no rights, had to obey their husbands and fathers, and were considered by the culture to be of far less value than men.
If anything, people probably give him too much credit for having respect for women (generally speaking).

 

[severus68]

Yeah actually I think we should, if slavery still existed that is. At least this particular line you’ve quoted, certainly rings in harmony with Matthew 5:39-42.

“39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

This of course is not saying slavery is a great thing anymore than it’s saying theft is a great thing anymore than it’s saying spousal abuse is a great thing. Of course the exploitation of slavery is morally deplorable, as is the exploitation of any power, be it in the household or in political office. It’s simply saying that this is what you do if you want to be like Christ. God will not punish you for some other guy making you suffer. Redemption and mercy are found when we suffer in such ways, and if we don’t succumb to the temptation of retaliation, God will give us grace.

What is at stake exactly?

 

[Armyvet007]

So then, by your admission, the husband isn’t really the “head” of the family and it’s just all ‘token titles’?

No, the husband is the “head” [concerned/responsible for the stuff outside of the family] and the wife is the “heart” [concerned/responsible for the stuff inside of the family]. Each has a specific role in supporting/creating a healthy family. As to the final say [the “the decision maker” part], it depends on whose responsibility the decision falls under and the (name removed by moderator)ut from the other person in relation to the issue itself and also in relation to the impact the decision will have on the “not the final sayer’s” responsibilities. Add to this the fact that “final sayer” has to place his/her needs/wants below that of the family.

The decision making process would look kind of like this-

1. ID the problem
   Need a new car
2. Determine who’s responsibility it falls under
   for this example- “head”
3. Get initial (name removed by moderator)ut from non-responsible person
   “heart’s” (name removed by moderator)ut- needs to hold at least 5, has to be affordable
4. Formulate a plan of action
   get a sedan, SUV, or minivan
5. Get (name removed by moderator)ut from non-responsible person on plan of action
   sedan too small [family could grow in future]
6. Review plan of action in regards to needs/wants of kids, then non-responsible person, then responsible person [greatest to least in terms of priority]
   kids- want a race car, “heart”- likes minivans, doesn’t want it to be blue “head”- hates minivans, likes SUVs
7. Revise/finalize plan
   look for an affordable non-blue minivan or SUV
8. Execute
   Goes to car dealer, can get a good deal on a SUV, can get similar deal on a blue minivan [non-blue cost more]. Buys blue minivan.

Being the “the decision maker” or the “head”/“heart” has nothing to do with “I’m the boss” or “I’m not the boss”; it has everything to do with “I’m the one responsible for this.”

A wife that “submits” [cedes all authority] is shirking her responsibilities; and a husband that demands his wife “submit” [give him all authority] is placing himself above his wife [she can’t be responsible, so I have to be]. The flip side being that a couple reject that the idea of a “final sayer” and instead runs the family by council is shirking their responsiblities in the name of a false “equality”.

The “chain of command” for a family is- God “in command” with the husband being in charge of X and the wife being in charge of Y; and with the husband and wife acting as subordinates of each other in the others “in charge of” and with the other’s needs/wants. All of which is focused on the good of the “command” [the family].

 

[Wretched_one]

I clearly see Satan’s hand in promoting feminism. We cannot say times have changed and hence we can disregard even Scriptures. God does not change with time, values don’t change with time. Women in the last sixty years haven’t grown manly suddenly in the six thousand years of history of mankind neither have colored people suddenly become white. It is Satan’s mischief and nothing else. I am not afraid of Satan and hence I say openly. Feminism and anti racism is nonsense. It is clearly written by God in his scriptures that women should not open their mouths in the church and so many people are arguing against it. I see how afraid you guys are of Satan. That is all.

 

[Armyvet007]

I clearly see Satan’s hand in promoting feminism. We cannot say times have changed and hence we can disregard even Scriptures. God does not change with time, values don’t change with time. Women in the last sixty years haven’t grown manly suddenly in the six thousand years of history of mankind neither have colored people suddenly become white. It is Satan’s mischief and nothing else. I am not afraid of Satan and hence I say openly. Feminism and anti racism is nonsense. It is clearly written by God in his scriptures that women should not open their mouths in the church and so many people are arguing against it. I see how afraid you guys are of Satan. That is all.

Um…what?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I clearly see Satan’s hand in promoting feminism. We cannot say times have changed and hence we can disregard even Scriptures. God does not change with time, values don’t change with time. Women in the last sixty years haven’t grown manly suddenly in the six thousand years of history of mankind neither have colored people suddenly become white. It is Satan’s mischief and nothing else. I am not afraid of Satan and hence I say openly. Feminism and anti racism is nonsense. It is clearly written by God in his scriptures that women should not open their mouths in the church and so many people are arguing against it. I see how afraid you guys are of Satan. That is all.

So I assuming your motto would be and with liberty and justice for none.

 

[LucyLight]

I clearly see Satan’s hand in promoting feminism. We cannot say times have changed and hence we can disregard even Scriptures. God does not change with time, values don’t change with time. Women in the last sixty years haven’t grown manly suddenly in the six thousand years of history of mankind neither have colored people suddenly become white. It is Satan’s mischief and nothing else. I am not afraid of Satan and hence I say openly. Feminism and anti racism is nonsense. It is clearly written by God in his scriptures that women should not open their mouths in the church and so many people are arguing against it. I see how afraid you guys are of Satan. That is all.

Troll alert

 

[LucyLight]

I clearly see Satan’s hand in promoting feminism. We cannot say times have changed and hence we can disregard even Scriptures. God does not change with time, values don’t change with time. Women in the last sixty years haven’t grown manly suddenly in the six thousand years of history of mankind neither have colored people suddenly become white. It is Satan’s mischief and nothing else. I am not afraid of Satan and hence I say openly. Feminism and anti racism is nonsense. It is clearly written by God in his scriptures that women should not open their mouths in the church and so many people are arguing against it. I see how afraid you guys are of Satan. That is all.

**
Troll alert**

 

[severus68]

So I assuming your motto would be and with liberty and justice for none.

Lol. With liberty and justice for white males only, it would appear.

 

[Ubenedictus]

So then, by your admission, the husband isn’t really the “head” of the family and it’s just all ‘token titles’?

you are trying to put words in his mouth, a very bad way to make a good discussion.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
The Bible contradicts itself.
That’s one of the reasons I have trouble taking ‘Biblical authority’ seriously:shrug:

From your perspective, sure.
But* I* have no need to validate the Bible.

i already know that, i wanted you to know what i think about it.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

That’s okay:shrug:

I am glad you admit that it makes no sense from a philosophical (and presumably rationalist) point of view.

huh…what? Are you trying to put words in my mouth, ‘‘i guess im blabing’’ meant that you may not understand my point, when i say it is more than philosophy i didnt say it is against reason. Faith and spirituality transcends reason but it not against it. So what is the meaning of your post. I really dont like it when my words are pulled apart just to make an idea i dont support.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
It does if you interpret the text literally:

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
-Ephesians 5

Now of course you don’t have to interpret the text literally, but if you leave yourself free to interpret Scripture at your own discretion then it could mean anything.

No, its because I am interpreting the text literally.
Its theoretically possible you could really expect wives to be utterly submissive AND expect husbands to be the self-sacrificing ones.
It just doesn’t work that way in real life most of the time.
In reality, those in charge seldom select themselves to be sacrificed (and say I seldom because I know it happens sometimes).

Based on what?
The Old Testament describes women as chattel (i.e. property).

i thought were were discussing the xtain idea and not d jewish one, you probably have heard xtain of CAF say that the old covenant has been fulfilled in the new. so why are you bringing the old testament in a matter where it has been superceeded.
Ubenedictus