Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[LucyLight]

OP, I would explain to your son that the Church does not teach wives to be submissive to their husbands. Not everything that a doctor of the Church or a Saint says is true. With the exception of Mary they are all sinners. Teaching that a woman is inferior to a man is sinful. I’m not going to make excuses for anyone because of the time period that they were living in. Their words have caused a lot of damage. It speaks highly of you and your son that he is not okay with misogyny. I would point out to your son that a lot of protestant denominations who uphold sola scriptura do base their theology of marriage soley on what St. Paul said. The Catholic church does not.

As for the priesthood you should explain that priests are here to serve. They are not like CEOs of a company in that they are not wealthy, have less material goods than most and our celibate. They often receive scorn from secular society and some have been martyred. Maybe Christ wanted to spare women from this task.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
But I thought the Catholic Church didn’t tolerate divorce?

You thought wrong.

.

Catholicism tolerates divorce

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Quote:
Moreover, wouldn’t leaving be a rejection of the man’s husbandly authority?

A person who is abusing his authority is not to be obeyed. We are not supposed to obey immoral orders, for example. Just as a soldier does not have to obey orders which violate the Geneva Convention.

We *all *obey God *first, *then the appropriate authorities.

Ah, but who gets to decide when authority is being abused?

 

[1AugustSon7]

You said it yourself. Those writings are nearly 800 years old. And writings from a saint (even a Doctor of the Church) are not doctrine. It is his opinion in a particular time and place regarding matters of discipline for the faithful.

Saint Thomas and all the Doctors of the Church wrote about Church Doctrine. They were not writing opinions. They are official sources of Christian doctrine and generally trustworthy; hence why they are Doctors of the Church.

 

[St_Francis]

To Angry Atheist,
I have seen some of your posts where you seemed interested in dialog, but this is not one of those times. I have tried to explain the Church’s position but you seem more interested in bashing *what you think *are the Catholic Church’s positions than in learning.

 

[bmullins]

So God is other people then (but not you’re wife)?

What’s to prevent a man from simply relying on sources that tell him what he wants to hear?

Read the quote again, I said specifically talk to your wife. God can work through every person, even you AngryAtheist. In fact, he used a donkey to talk to a man once. Read what I’m saying, not what you want to fight about.

 

[bmullins]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
But I thought the Catholic Church didn’t tolerate divorce?

Catholicism tolerates divorce

Yes, Catholicism tolerates divorce. But if you are divorced you may not remarry, that is the difference. Because a legal divorce does not dissolve a marriage. As in you can legally divorce and separate but you may not remarry ever, unless the marriage was never a sacramental marriage in the first place. That is where annulments come in. Divorcee’s may come to the church and should be encouraged to do so, because they need the healing of God’s love just as much, if not more so than the rest of us fallen people. There is no shame in divorcing, but a man/woman who is divorced and lives with another person or tries to remarry without first going through the annulment process is living in sin.

 

[LucyLight]

OP you could show your son two letters written from Pope John Paul II which speak to his concerns. I highlighted a few parts.

JOHN PAUL II ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN

Pope John Paul II says when explaining the analogy of human marriage to Christ and the Church says, "However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the
Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between
husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual."

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

LETTER OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO WOMEN

In this letter he says, “And if objective blame, especially in particular historical contexts, has belonged to not just a few members of the Church, for this I am truly sorry. May this regret be transformed, on the part of the whole Church, into a renewed commitment of fidelity to the Gospel vision. When it comes to setting women free from every kind of exploitation and domination, the Gospel contains an ever relevant message which goes back to the attitude of Jesus Christ himself. Transcending the established norms of his own culture, Jesus treated women with openness, respect, acceptance and tenderness. In this way he honoured the dignity which women have always possessed according to God’s plan and in his love. As we look to Christ at the end of this Second Millennium, it is natural to ask ourselves: how much of his message has been heard and acted upon?”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

 

[Nothumbleenough]

OP you could show your son two letters written from Pope John Paul II which speak to his concerns. I highlighted a few parts.

JOHN PAUL II ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN

Pope John Paul II says when explaining the analogy of human marriage to Christ and the Church says, "However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the
Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between
husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual."

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

LETTER OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO WOMEN

In this letter he says, “And if objective blame, especially in particular historical contexts, has belonged to not just a few members of the Church, for this I am truly sorry. May this regret be transformed, on the part of the whole Church, into a renewed commitment of fidelity to the Gospel vision. When it comes to setting women free from every kind of exploitation and domination, the Gospel contains an ever relevant message which goes back to the attitude of Jesus Christ himself. Transcending the established norms of his own culture, Jesus treated women with openness, respect, acceptance and tenderness. In this way he honoured the dignity which women have always possessed according to God’s plan and in his love. As we look to Christ at the end of this Second Millennium, it is natural to ask ourselves: how much of his message has been heard and acted upon?”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html

Very informative. Thank you!

 

[carn]

It may be best to allow Dad to relax and bring him some beer, and at another time, discuss what the results of his behaving like that are, if he does it frequently.

Since the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, he should listen to her when she comes to him with her concerns.

Again, one has to look at the totality of what is being asked. It is not simply that the wife is being asked to obey; it is that the husband is being asked to love his wife as Christ loves His Church. Christ gave His (physical) life for the Church.

If a wife is having terrible problems with her husband, then she can ask for advice and help.

Wow, both husbands and wives can behave badly

The point of marriage is for each spouse to help the other to attain Heaven. God gave us individual spouses because each situation is unique. We are supposed to do our best to behave in a Godly fashion and pray for God’s help for both ourselves and for our spouses.

I think the perception problem is two-fold: one is that when people were more stable and settled into a community, the men would kind of ride herd on a misbehaving husband (there have been sociological studies on this). The other problem is that some strains of Protestantism are very tyrannical with regards to wives. The fact that some obscure Protestant sect allows such-and-such does not mean that this is acceptable to every Christian on the planet.

Ask for help?

The question is not what behavior is sensible, but the thread question is more or less, what kind of submission is required of the wife and what are the limits according to church teaching.

Or in other words under which circumstances may a wife ignore what her husband asks her to do.

AngryAtheist seems to think that a wife may never ignore what her husbands asks her to do.

 

[St_Francis]

Ask for help?

The question is not what behavior is sensible, but the thread question is more or less, what kind of submission is required of the wife and what are the limits according to church teaching.

Or in other words under which circumstances may a wife ignore what her husband asks her to do.

AngryAtheist seems to think that a wife may never ignore what her husbands asks her to do.

I tend to rely on the Just War theory for problems with authority, but one thing that is not mentioned, since JWT relates to taking up of arms, is the obligation to disobey immoral orders.

Here are my thoughts on uniting JWT with marriage with a difficult husband:

the damage inflicted by the bad decisions of the husband must be lasting, grave, and certain;

all other means of putting an end to it (such as discusssion and prayer) must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

the solution must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (I think with marriage that this would cover the JWT’s requirement for good prospect of success).

 

[LemonAndLime]

I think the issue is not so much what the Church teaches but what the Church does.

What has the Church done to promote women’s rights? - I have asked this question twice, starting two different threads, and never got an answer.

Regarding “submitting to husband” - women are equal, but different. Different in the sense we have different priorities in life, different about how we see it. But we do not have set personalities. Not all men are leaders. Not all women are born followers. I’ve always felt that calling the man the head of the family was more of trophy title than anything real. What does the head of the family do exactly? Decide the shopping list? Teach the children about God? Decide what colour carpet to buy? I feel it’s an insult to married life, placing one above the other. Saying the man is the “leader”. Whoop die woop.

The idea of the man being the “head” sorta gives me this funny picture. A man and wife in a boat, each holding an oar. The man is using his oar, telling his wife what they should do, but with some discussion. But they’re only using one oar to drive the boat. Say both husband and wife become equal partners in the relationship. Now there are two oars in use for the boat. Greater steering. It’s not a case of two bosses in the same company at all. But two people working together. Teamwork - there is no “I” in it.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I think the issue is not so much what the Church teaches but what the Church does.

What has the Church done to promote women’s rights? - I have asked this question twice, starting two different threads, and never got an answer.

Regarding “submitting to husband” - women are equal, but different. Different in the sense we have different priorities in life, different about how we see it. But we do not have set personalities. Not all men are leaders. Not all women are born followers. I’ve always felt that calling the man the head of the family was more of trophy title than anything real. What does the head of the family do exactly? Decide the shopping list? Teach the children about God? Decide what colour carpet to buy? I feel it’s an insult to married life, placing one above the other. Saying the man is the “leader”. Whoop die woop.

The idea of the man being the “head” sorta gives me this funny picture. A man and wife in a boat, each holding an oar. The man is using his oar, telling his wife what they should do, but with some discussion. But they’re only using one oar to drive the boat. Say both husband and wife become equal partners in the relationship. Now there are two oars in use for the boat. Greater steering. It’s not a case of two bosses in the same company at all. But two people working together. Teamwork - there is no “I” in it.

That’s a very reasonable answer.
It kind of throws me off guard.

 

[St_Francis]

I think the issue is not so much what the Church teaches but what the Church does.

What has the Church done to promote women’s rights? - I have asked this question twice, starting two different threads, and never got an answer.

It depends on what you mean by women’s “rights.”

In Catholic theology, a person’s rights are related to his obligations. So, a parent has the right to make decisions regarding his child’s education, *because he has primary responsibility to see that the child is educated. *

A wife generally cares for the home, and these are her obligations. Her rights to be supported in that *by the husband *put an obligation on the husband–it is not all cake and tea for him while she has the onerous tasks!

Regarding “submitting to husband” - women are equal, but different. Different in the sense we have different priorities in life, different about how we see it. But we do not have set personalities. Not all men are leaders. Not all women are born followers. I’ve always felt that calling the man the head of the family was more of trophy title than anything real. What does the head of the family do exactly? Decide the shopping list? Teach the children about God? Decide what colour carpet to buy? I feel it’s an insult to married life, placing one above the other. Saying the man is the “leader”. Whoop die woop.

You may have noticed I used a lot of “boss” analogies in my replies. Here’s another: the boss is the manager–he delegates responsibilities.

He is responsible for the overall output of the department to *his *boss, but he delegates responsibility for certain aspects of the department’s tasks to various people within the department.

Just as the husband is responsible to *God, *and he delegates responsibility also. the husband may decide to let the wife decorate the house, or he may decide that decorating the house at that time would interfere with saving some money for retirement and that they should wait. Etc.

In addition, the husband’s responsibility to Gos is very high–he is also partly responsible for the souls in his care! If the husband makes a mistake, and as a result, a member of the family loses his soul, then God will hold the husband responsible for that loss.

The idea of the man being the “head” sorta gives me this funny picture. A man and wife in a boat, each holding an oar. The man is using his oar, telling his wife what they should do, but with some discussion. But they’re only using one oar to drive the boat. Say both husband and wife become equal partners in the relationship. Now there are two oars in use for the boat. Greater steering. It’s not a case of two bosses in the same company at all. But two people working together. Teamwork - there is no “I” in it.

If my husband and I were equally pulling on oars in a rowboat, we would go around in circles, because he is stronger than I am.

If my husband and I were each pulling an oar, who would decide when to turn? If he decided to turn one way, and I rowed so as to subvert that turn?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It depends on what you mean by women’s “rights.”

In Catholic theology, a person’s rights are related to his obligations. So, a parent has the right to make decisions regarding his child’s education, *because he has primary responsibility to see that the child is educated. *

A wife generally cares for the home, and these are her obligations. Her rights to be supported in that *by the husband *put an obligation on the husband–it is not all cake and tea for him while she has the onerous tasks!

You may have noticed I used a lot of “boss” analogies in my replies. Here’s another: the boss is the manager–he delegates responsibilities.

He is responsible for the overall output of the department to *his *boss, but he delegates responsibility for certain aspects of the department’s tasks to various people within the department.

Just as the husband is responsible to *God, *and he delegates responsibility also. the husband may decide to let the wife decorate the house, or he may decide that decorating the house at that time would interfere with saving some money for retirement and that they should wait. Etc.

In addition, the husband’s responsibility to Gos is very high–he is also partly responsible for the souls in his care! If the husband makes a mistake, and as a result, a member of the family loses his soul, then God will hold the husband responsible for that loss.

If my husband and I were equally pulling on oars in a rowboat, we would go around in circles, because he is stronger than I am.

If my husband and I were each pulling an oar, who would decide when to turn? If he decided to turn one way, and I rowed so as to subvert that turn?

This is more along the lines of what experience has taught me to expect from people of faith.

The fact of the matter is, if I actually believed the things that St.Francis is saying, I would conclude that men are indeed better than women (due to the fact that they automatically have a superior position in the divine hierarchy).

 

[carn]

What has the Church done to promote women’s rights? - I have asked this question twice, starting two different threads, and never got an answer.

Church promoted human rights.
Women rights often mean abortion, therefore church is cautious about women rights.

Regarding “submitting to husband” - women are equal, but different. Different in the sense we have different priorities in life, different about how we see it. But we do not have set personalities. Not all men are leaders. Not all women are born followers. I’ve always felt that calling the man the head of the family was more of trophy title than anything real. What does the head of the family do exactly?

A man and wife in a boat, each holding an oar.

It means getting out of the boat and swim, when it can hold only one person.

 

[carn]

This is more along the lines of what experience has taught me to expect from people of faith.

The fact of the matter is, if I actually believed the things that St.Francis is saying, I would conclude that men are indeed better than women (due to the fact that they automatically have a superior position in the divine hierarchy).

Since there is a problem of understanding St Francis, look at the numbers of the discrimination christian ideas produced in respect to the worth of women and men:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic#Survivors_and_victims
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_children_first#History
“Although never part of international maritime law, the phrase was popularised by its usage on the RMS Titanic,[6] where, as a consequence of this practice, 74% of the women on board were saved and 52% of the children, but only 20% of the men.”
Certainly serious discrimination those from our point of view hard-core christians on the Titanic displayed, but from disrespect for women?

And where does this nasty discrimination stem from?
“The practice of women and children first arose from the chivalrous actions of soldiers during sinking of the Royal Navy troopship HMS Birkenhead in 1852, which was memorialized in newspapers and paintings of the time,”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#Medieval_literature
“The medieval development of chivalry, with the concept of the honor of a lady and the ensuing knightly devotion to it, not only derived from the thinking about the Virgin Mary, but also contributed to it.”

Of course in societies like in the US or Europe, where dramatic or even life threatening situations are fortunately less common, the aspect of the mans duty to lay down his life for his wife is less important and therefore his duty to lead (in such situations) has to be readjusted. But i cannot see anything wrong about it, it just treats women and men differently, which often does make sense.

 

[Ubenedictus]

What if he ordered you to do something evil or insane?
Like murdering someone or giving away everything to charity (so that there wasn’t even enough left to feed the family).

why do you like to give worst case scenario? Is cases of sin even children are not obligated to obey.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

This is more along the lines of what experience has taught me to expect from people of faith.

The fact of the matter is, if I actually believed the things that St.Francis is saying, I would conclude that men are indeed better than women (due to the fact that they automatically have a superior position in the divine hierarchy).

well in my childhood day my elder brother was above me in the family hierarchy and in my culture where a younger person vacates his sit because of a older person who has no sit you can imagine the implications. My elder brother gets to throw some his weight around and all that, he is suppose to do the harder work e.t.c. Even in this case my brother is not not greater he is just my elder and i choose to respect him. I really dont get the idea that say if the husband is higher in hierarchy that means the the woman is inferior.
Ubenedictus

 

[LemonAndLime]

Church promoted human rights.
Women rights often mean abortion, therefore church is cautious about women rights.

Oh. You see, I thought women’s rights included stuff like the right to vote, own properly, education, to work, have a bank account. But yeah, I guess the Church hasn’t got involved in any type of woman’s rights incase it ends up being all about abortion.

It means getting out of the boat and swim, when it can hold only one person.

What?