Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

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LemonAndLime said:
Not in my marriage he won’t. Gender does not define a leading personality.
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Maybe you should leave your own ambition and determination at the door and humble yourself to the teachings of the Church.

That said, with the kind of attitude you have, you will certainly be the dominating force in your marriage. Not because you are stronger than a strong male, but because no good strong morally adherent Catholic male would want a wife that refuses to follow the teachings of the Church, St. Paul, and all the Saints, refuses to accept God’s place as eternal King and His appointment of man as the head of YOU. You’ll instead find a weak male who will submit to you and you will probably end up living a perfectly happy life knowing that you’re in control.

But by maintaining an attitude of female empowerment, you will actually end up with less than what you could have, and will someday question your rebellion against Natural Law, the teachings of the Saints, and above all your submission to the disorder of the modern world.
 
LucyLight said:
So you dont believe that the submission is mutual? Your ideal is the husband leading the wife and the wife obeying the husband. This bothers me because it sounds like a parent /child relationship to me. Of course you couch this all with lots of love and other nicities but lets just get to the real issue here.

btw, I respect how you want to live your marriage with your husband. The problem I have is when you claim that this is how the church is instructing us or wants us to live.
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The Bible makes pretty clear it’s instruction on how to live, and indeed it specifically says (as has been repeated over and over in this topic) “Wives submit to your husbands.” There is no need to try to muddle the teaching as it is abundantly clear, and any attempts to weasel ones way around it will ultimately fail.
 
FaithBuild18 said:
The Bible makes pretty clear it’s instruction on how to live, and indeed it specifically says (as has been repeated over and over in this topic) “Wives submit to your husbands.” There is no need to try to muddle the teaching as it is abundantly clear, and any attempts to weasel ones way around it will ultimately fail.
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What you said to lemonandlime was personal and beyond rude. Attacking her and her husband based on the fact that her husband does not lead instead they make decisions together shows your lack of judgement. Shame! :mad:
 
LucyLight said:
So you dont believe that the submission is mutual? Your ideal is the husband leading the wife and the wife obeying the husband. This bothers me because it sounds like a parent /child relationship to me. Of course you couch this all with lots of love and other nicities but lets just get to the real issue here.

btw, I respect how you want to live your marriage with your husband. The problem I have is when you claim that this is how the church is instructing us or wants us to live.
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I thought my final paragraph about the couple who does this not being any more holy than the couple who doesn’t made it clear that I don’t think anyone is or should be forced to live this way if they truly do not believe it’s what’s called for?
A woman who truly and heartfully believes different is, imho, different from a woman who rejects the heart of this teaching in any way, shape or form out of selfishness, which NO, I’m NOT accusing anyone here of doing.

I also, personally, don’t see again why it’s such a bad thing to see a sort of parental love here, in a small degree. God calls us to come to him trusting as children, and as I am to submit to my husband as I submit to Christ, when loving, selfless direction is given, it does sometimes take a childlike trust.

Again, it’s how I interprite the teaching, and what I personally think the ideal is.
 
Nilla_Bean said:
Who’s Brother JR?
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You’ve been missing some very educational, entertaining, and thought provoking posts. I suggest you follow the link and read some of his posts; also click the link at the bottom of his posts [Franciscans for Life].
 
Armyvet007 said:
You’ve been missing some very educational, entertaining, and thought provoking posts. I suggest you follow the link and read some of his posts; also click the link at the bottom of his posts [Franciscans for Life].
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Well, I just read the thread you linked me to and I respectfully disagree.

Submission is submission and it’s a beautiful thing I strive for and pray to be continually given the strength to do. I don’t understand why so many people think it’s something wrong 🤷
 
Nilla_Bean said:
Well, I just read the thread you linked me to and I respectfully disagree.

Submission is submission and it’s a beautiful thing I strive for and pray to be continually given the strength to do. I don’t understand why so many people think it’s something wrong 🤷
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Because submission does not seem to be loving. For example if I am arrested than I have to submit to the police officer. Or if my boss asks me to do something than I submit to him. I dont do this because of love but because there are consequences If I don’t. A covenant relationship is all about love not submission. As Catholics we have more than St. Paul to go on. For example St. Francaisa(from the thread that was cited) explained it as conformity not submission. And that it was mutual.

Btw, there are limits to the analogy of Christ/Church and Husband/Wife

JOHN PAUL II ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN

Pope John Paul II says when explaining the analogy of human marriage to Christ and the Church says, "However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between
husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual."

It’s pretty hard to argue with Pope John Paul II words.
 
I still don’t get it. Submission can have more than one meaning, like many words in the English language. And I never denied the fact that husbands must be truthful, faithful and sacrificing to their wives. In fact if you’ll look at a previous post, I even mentioned that yes, there is submission on both ends, but the idea that it’s submission in the exact same manner is almost appalling to me.

I hole my wifely submission as a beautiful thing, no matter what ugly spin you want to put on it, and I don’t see how this is contrary to the Catholic church. Would I do anything my husband asked me? No, but I have trust in him to not knowingly lead me to something against God. If it is something in line with Gods orders and causes me no harm to obey, why WOULDN’T I??? My husband sacrifices much to provide for me, why wouldn’t I willingly and lovingly submit to him? What’s so unCatholic about that?

I’m not arguing with the worlds of JP2. I just don’t seem to see them the same way you do
 
No religion on the planet holds women in a higher position, gives women more power, or respects their roles more, than the Catholic religion. Adjust for purely cultural/national prejudices, and the actual reality is no religion is more supportive of women than Catholicism. Nowhere do they have more freedom. None other has the Mother of God as its highest ideal of womanhood, and no woman is closer to God or has more influence in Heaven and on earth. Think about these things, and if your son is not some college kid with a knee-jerk reaction against anything seemingly “sexist” who really doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he will see that there is no safer or saner place for a woman than in the Catholic fold.
 
FaithBuild18 said:
Maybe you should leave your own ambition and determination at the door and humble yourself to the teachings of the Church.
Click to expand...
I’m not aware there is a teaching which tells me I must submit to the will of any husband.
That said, with the kind of attitude you have, you will certainly be the dominating force in your marriage. Not because you are stronger than a strong male, but because no good strong morally adherent Catholic male would want a wife that refuses to follow the teachings of the Church, St. Paul, and all the Saints, refuses to accept God’s place as eternal King and His appointment of man as the head of YOU. You’ll instead find a weak male who will submit to you and you will probably end up living a perfectly happy life knowing that you’re in control.
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Wow, seeing as you know me so well, I’m sure you already know I’ve been dating my boyfriend, an agnostic, for the last 3 years.

The time any man considers himself the head of me is the time they find the locks changed. I am not here to be dominated, I am here to be considered an equal part of any relationship.

However, I feel your manners are very poor. Perhaps your knowledge too. Again, where am I required to be a doormat?
But by maintaining an attitude of female empowerment, you will actually end up with less than what you could have, and will someday question your rebellion against Natural Law, the teachings of the Saints, and above all your submission to the disorder of the modern world.
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:rolleyes:

Female empowerment? Rejecting natural law? Just because I will not accept my future husband is better placed to make decisions purely because of gender?

Someone’s gone a little over the top, and it isn’t me.
 
Ancient1 said:
No religion on the planet holds women in a higher position, gives women more power, or respects their roles more, than the Catholic religion. Adjust for purely cultural/national prejudices, and the actual reality is no religion is more supportive of women than Catholicism. Nowhere do they have more freedom. None other has the Mother of God as its highest ideal of womanhood, and no woman is closer to God or has more influence in Heaven and on earth. Think about these things, and if your son is not some college kid with a knee-jerk reaction against anything seemingly “sexist” who really doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he will see that there is no safer or saner place for a woman than in the Catholic fold.
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I’ll say it - paganism. Nothing in there about submitting to anybody. And its appeal to younger people, especially women, says it all.
 
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LemonAndLime said:
I’ll say it - paganism. Nothing in there about submitting to anybody. And its appeal to younger people, especially women, says it all.
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You need to refine what you mean by paganism. The term covers a broad range of belief systems.
 
ekk1 said:
reading through these posts makes me wonder… are there any distinguished female Catholic theologians who have written on the topic of the role of women in the catholic church? thank you in advance for any suggestions. i am more interested in the feminine perspective.
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ek,

Then you should read Theresa of Avila, Theresa of Lisieux and Catherine of Sienna the 3 female doctors of the Church. They would have your feminine perspective. As a woman you should find them interesting.
 
LucyLight said:
Because submission does not seem to be loving. For example if I am arrested than I have to submit to the police officer. Or if my boss asks me to do something than I submit to him. I dont do this because of love but because there are consequences If I don’t. A covenant relationship is all about love not submission. As Catholics we have more than St. Paul to go on. For example St. Francaisa(from the thread that was cited) explained it as conformity not submission. And that it was mutual.

Btw, there are limits to the analogy of Christ/Church and Husband/Wife

JOHN PAUL II ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN

Pope John Paul II says when explaining the analogy of human marriage to Christ and the Church says, "However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between
husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual."

It’s pretty hard to argue with Pope John Paul II words.
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i really respect JR but i think he is just taking the opposite arguement. Submission is the word paul use and subjection is the word Johnpaul uses. Submission and subjection for the church is a reality but it is more than just submit to the police officer, i dont share the idea that submission and conformity are mutually exclusive in the christ-church relationship. JR ‘opponent’ seem to add the modern notion of subjection while jR is runing fron that notion with all his might. In the church-christ relationship it is both submission and conformity, a positive submission, a submission of love which renews and conform her to christ.
Ubenedictus
 
LemonAndLime said:
I’m not aware there is a teaching which tells me I must submit to the will of any husband.

Wow, seeing as you know me so well, I’m sure you already know I’ve been dating my boyfriend, an agnostic, for the last 3 years.

The time any man considers himself the head of me is the time they find the locks changed. I am not here to be dominated, I am here to be considered an equal part of any relationship.

However, I feel your manners are very poor. Perhaps your knowledge too. Again, where am I required to be a doormat?

:rolleyes:

Female empowerment? Rejecting natural law? Just because I will not accept my future husband is better placed to make decisions purely because of gender?

Someone’s gone a little over the top, and it isn’t me.
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wow cool down, im sure your guy is having a tough time, you sound like ‘iron lady’. It seems you are really interested in argueing the title ‘head’, it is a pity st paul is not around to defend himself. But im pretty certain that if you marry a xtain guy he will certainly assume that title im surprised that even a title make you unconfortable, have you ever consider that you misinterpreted the meaning of the title?
Ubenedictus
 
LemonAndLime said:
I’ll say it - paganism. Nothing in there about submitting to anybody. And its appeal to younger people, especially women, says it all.
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i still find the word submission, mutual submission is part of catholism teaching on marriage.
Ubenedictus
 
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