Are Works Necessary for Salvation?

[SHW]

Some non-Catholic members of this forum insist that no works are ever necessary in order to inherit eternal life. They claim that once they are saved, then they can never be lost because no works matter; not ever! They are “saved” and “sealed” forever, according to their interpretations of Scripture.

These are two of their favorite Scripture passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

What would you tell them in response?

Pax,
SHW

 

[po18guy]

Here are a few verses that came to mind:

James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Not a word about being judged by what we believe. Only by what we’ve done.

 

[DawnInTexas]

If we are truly to “imitate Christ”:

This is pretty good (not Catholic):
bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1609/Imitating-Christ.htm

We know we are to bring “every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (II Corinthians 10:5) and to “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 2:5). John tells us “to walk just as He walked” (I John 2:6). Peter advises, “Christ . . . us an example, that you should follow His steps” (I Peter 2:21).

If indeed: …God bases our judgment on how we treat others (Matthew 25:34-46)…

Just how could anyone think they never have to lift a finger to help another?
Or ever give (money for instance) to help support their neighbor?

 

[Canto]

Some non-Catholic members of this forum insist that no works are ever necessary in order to inherit eternal life. They claim that once they are saved, then they can never be lost because no works matter; not ever! They are “saved” and “sealed” forever, according to their interpretations of Scripture.

These are two of their favorite Scripture passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

What would you tell them in response?

Pax,
SHW

Eph 2 in context

Ephesians 2:8. For by grace you are saved through faith (and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God) 9. Not of works, that no man glory. 10. For we are his work, created in Christ JESUS in good works, which God hath prepared that** we should walk in them**.

The works are works of the Old Law that some did without grace, did boastfully and did expecting that God would then somehow owe them.

Under the New Law we still have to do good works but they are part of our faith with the grace of God. Paul bangs on about doing good works, rebuking those who say otherwise, how faith works through charity etc.

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound in you: that in all things always having all sufficiency, you may abound unto all good works

If we didn’t need works why would Paul say charity is greater than faith (1 cor 13:13) and why would James (ch2) say faith without works is dead, devils believe and tremble (as believe but no good works) and not by faith alone.

We can’t expect to have true faith if we don’t busy ourselves with good works. Christ said if he didn’t do the works of his Father we should not believe him. We can lose our state of grace.

Revelation 2:3 But I have against thee a few things, because vthou hast left thy first charity… 5. Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. But if not: I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of his place, unless thou do penance.

2 Peter 3:18 Grow in grace

The gospels, the Pauline and Catholic epistles and Revelation all say that God will render us according to our works.

1Corinthians 3:13. The work of every one shall be manifest: for the day of our Lord will declare, because it shall be revealed in fire: and the work of every one of what kind it is, the fire shall try. 14. If any mans work abide, which he built thereupon: he shall receive reward. 15. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer detriment: but himself shall be saved: yet so as by fire.

Also I’ve heard some say good works come in a sense naturally with faith, but God gave us free will. He doesn’t force us to doo good works.

If you meet St Peter at the pearly gates and yeah sure you believe in Christ and stuff, but if you had no good works to show of it…???

How can you be saved and sealed forever if you don’t have good works, the devils believe and tremble.

Colossians 3:14. But above all these things have charity, which is the band of perfection:
1 Thessalonians 3:6 and reporting to us your faith and charity,
1 Thessalonians 4:9. But concerning the charity of the cfraternity, we have no need to write to you: for *yourselves have learned of God to love one another. [the Royal law]
1 Thessalonians 5:8 having on the breast plate of faith **and **of charity, and a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Timothy 4:12 be an example of the faithful, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith in charity.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ JESUS neither circumcision availeth aught, not prepuce: but faith that worketh by charity. 7. You ran well, who hath hindered you not to obey the truth?
1 Corinthians 13:2 and **if I should have all faith **so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 16:13 Watch ye, stand in the faith, do manfully, and be strengthened. 14. Let all your things be done in charity.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Some non-Catholic members of this forum insist that no works are ever necessary in order to inherit eternal life. They claim that once they are saved, then they can never be lost because no works matter; not ever! They are “saved” and “sealed” forever, according to their interpretations of Scripture.

These are two of their favorite Scripture passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

What would you tell them in response?

Pax,
SHW

Hi, SHW.

If you read Scripture regularly, you will see that it is full of apparent contradictions.

The contradictions aren’t real, to the non-closed mind. What is going on is that Scripture is emphasizing different ideas to address the different needs of different people. This isn’t a justification of double talk. It is real.

So, on Fath v. Works, whereas Paul says what he says on the subject, Paul also says, “Faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love” – pure works, right?

And though Christ says, “Your faith has saved you,” “Your faith has saved you,” “Your faith has saved you,” there is the Parable of the Good Samaritan…

The priest – symbolizing faith – makes a wide berth between himself and the robbery victim in the gutter; the Levite – of the priestly tribe, symbolizing faith – makes a wide berth between himself and the robbery victim in the gutter. The Samaritan – symbolizing NON-faith – does what God requires for the robbery victim in the gutter.

Who did Christ prefer? The “Faith Men,” or the “Works Man”?

Though Paul and Christ overtly distinguish between faith and works, I don’t think that there is a distinction. Paul and Chist are playing a game, in their analysis, and I believe that the entire centuries-long controversy is a trap for fools.

Faith is a work; works are faith in motion.

Works (to the extent that they are “‘good’ works”) are made of faith; faith (to the extent that it is the “faith” Christ and Paul want) is made of works, only.

 

[Canto]

Sorry for posting so much scripture, but well there is just so much scriputre to support the Catholic viewpoint. A few more I dug out…

Matthew 24: 12. And because iniquity shall abound: the charity of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works and faith, and thy charity.

Ephesians 3:17 17 Christ to dwell by **faith **in your hearts, **rooted and founded in charity,**Ephesians 4:15 15. But doing the truth in charity

Ephesians 6:23 **charity with faith **from God the Father, and our Lord JESUS Christ.

Revelation 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Philemon 5. Heaving thy **charity and faith **which thou hast in our Lord JESUS, and toward all the saints:

1 John 3: 17. *He that shall have the substance of the world, and shall see his brother have need, and shall shut his bowels from him: how doth the charity of God abide in him?

1 John 4: 7 My dearest, let us love one another: because charity is of God. And everyone that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God. 8. **He that loveth not, knoweth not God: **because God is charity.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

From Matthew 25:

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.” 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

 

[Nita]

I would tell them that the verses are correct. Because of, or through, faith we seek Baptism, which gives us the saving life of grace.

1. Having received saving/sanctifying grace as a free gift, it is up to us to retain it. We lose it when we willingly commit serious sin. Only repentence restores the life of grace to our souls. If we die unrepentent of those sins, we will not enter heaven.

*Gal 5:19-21 “…fornication, impurity, … I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” *
(Note that these are baptized Christians Paul is speaking to.)

1. If we fail to use the life of grace God gives us, to do the good works He has asked of us, we will lose it. He expects us to have that life grow and increase in us.

Mt 25 14-30 Parable of the talents
vs 25 “so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground.” …
vs 28-30 “Take the talent from him …Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
(The important thing to note in this parable, is that the man did not lose the initial gift he was given. He had not thrown it away through unrepented serious sin. He just failed to do anything with it.)

*Mark 4:24 And he said to them, “Take heed what you hear; the measure you give will be the measure you get, and still more will be given you. 4:25 For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.” *

And of course, there is the parable of the last judgement given in Mt 25:31-46

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Having said what I said about the pure equivalency of faith and words, however, at the risk of igniting the claims of “Faith-Only-ists,” here, I have to point out that, of late, when I am sinning, somehow, more and more I am moved, in my cold, sinning mind to pray with a cold heart for change – and the change happens.

Peter

 

[Cachonga]

I had a roommate in college who believed he was saved when he was 9 years old and made a “confession of faith” and was baptized in his church. He didn’t drink or smoke, and rarely cussed, but he was a womanizer. I tried to point out what Paul says in 1 Cor 6:15 (“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.”). His "faith " didn’t match his “works”. I do believe faith is the only thing necessary for salvation (“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31), but once saved, we MUST walk as God directs, and do the works that He has prepared for us. If our faith is dead, how can it be a saving faith? That faith is necessary to do the good works God has prepared for us is obvious (Romans 14:23 says, “… For all that is not of faith is sin.” ). These works, however, are not works of the Law (for example, we don’t observe the Sabbath as outlined in Leviticus). We have examples of these good works (Peter heals a man in the Temple, Philip goes and teaches the Ethiopian eunuch about Christ, the gospel is spread, etc…)
Peter Dawson:

The priest – symbolizing faith – makes a wide berth between himself and the robbery victim in the gutter; the Levite – of the priestly tribe, symbolizing faith – makes a wide berth between himself and the robbery victim in the gutter. The Samaritan – symbolizing NON-faith – does what God requires for the robbery victim in the gutter.

Who did Christ prefer? The “Faith Men,” or the “Works Man”?

I will disagree with this interpretation of the parable. Jesus never used 2 examples of the same thing in a parable (priest and Levite both represent faith). Instead, He would tell different parables representing the same thing (the lost sheep and the lost coin). Rather, the priest represents religion, the Levite represents the Law, and the Samaritan represents Jesus (He was called a Samaritan by the hypocrites). I would also add that the man who fell among thieves is us (by way of Adam), Jerusalem is Heaven, Jericho is Earth, the Inn is the Church, the Innkeeper is the Holy Spirit, and the 2 coins are the wages for 2 days (2000 years), but the Samaritan (Jesus) will pay for extra time if He’s delayed in His return.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Some non-Catholic members of this forum insist that no works are ever necessary in order to inherit eternal life. They claim that once they are saved, then they can never be lost because no works matter; not ever! They are “saved” and “sealed” forever, according to their interpretations of Scripture.

These are two of their favorite Scripture passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

What would you tell them in response?

Pax,
SHW

Ephesians 2:8-10

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Amen! Catholics agree that we are saved by grace and not by works. In this passage, Paul is not pitting works against faith, and the passage never tries to focus on the inner workings of justification. He is pitting works against grace (notice the use of the preposition “by”, twice)! This verse says that we are saved by grace; that even the faith we have is a gracious gift; and that the works we do are nothing to boast of because they too are a gracious gift. It is all grace through and through, from beginning to end.

However, the word “alone” does not appear anywhere in this passage. We are not saved by “faith alone” as James points out clearly in James 2:24.

For more details:

"NOT BY WORKS"
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp

**Faith and Works **
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

 

[Peter_Dawson]

I will disagree with this interpretation of the parable. Jesus never used 2 examples of the same thing in a parable (priest and Levite both represent faith).

14 "It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
15 To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
16 the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
17 Likewise, the one who received two made another two. 18 But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
19 After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. 10 He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
22 (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’ 24 Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
25 so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
26 His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
27 Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
28 Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
29 For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

Clearly, Mr. Five Talents and Mr. Two Talents received the same treatment.

Never say never.

 

[Cachonga]

Peter Dawson:

Never say never.

And what is the point of the parable? God gives us according to our abilities, some can handle five talents, some two and others only one. Notice, none of the servants got the same amount of talents as another (three servants, three amounts; they didn’t all get five talents, or two or one, but they all got a different amount).

 

[Peter_Dawson]

And what is the point of the parable? God gives us according to our abilities, some can handle five talents, some two and others only one. Notice, none of the servants got the same amount of talents as another (three servants, three amounts; they didn’t all get five talents, or two or one, but they all got a different amount).

And the priest and the Levite weren’t called the same thing. They just both DID the same thing, like the two men who each had been given more than one talent.

So, my tiny point is valid. Christ DOES repeat examples in Parables.

 

[Cachonga]

Peter Dawson:

And the priest and the Levite weren’t called the same thing. They just both DID the same thing, like the two men who each had been given more than one talent.

While it’s true that all priests were Levites, it is untrue that all Levites were priests. Your point is not valid.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

While it’s true that all priests were Levites, it is untrue that all Levites were priests. Your point is not valid.

Okay, then tell me, my good friend, how does this change the outcome of the parable in a way that is shockingly different than the men with more than one talent in the other parable?

 

[Cachonga]

Peter Dawson:

Okay, then tell me, my good friend, how does this change the outcome of the parable in a way that is shockingly different than the men with more than one talent in the other parable?

The servants with the talents were given what they were capable of handling. Your problem is you are making the priest and Levite both represent “faith” and the Samaritan represent “works”. If this were a parable contrasting faith with works, there would be no need for two people to represent either of those two things. Bottom line - you are incorrect in your interpretation of the parable.

 

[fbl9]

And what is the point of the parable? God gives us according to our abilities, some can handle five talents, some two and others only one. Notice, none of the servants got the same amount of talents as another (three servants, three amounts; they didn’t all get five talents, or two or one, but they all got a different amount).

Now just what is it that God gives us in this parable?And where or what is the bank that the person who only got one talent could have gotten inerest from for God?

 

[Cachonga]

fbl9:

Now just what is it that God gives us in this parable?And where or what is the bank that the person who only got one talent could have gotten inerest from for God?

It seems as if you’ve walked in on the middle of the conversation. Peter Dawson brought up the parable of the talents to try and show that his interpretation of the good Samaritan parable was valid. I would suggest you go back and read what went before.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The servants with the talents were given what they were capable of handling. Your problem is you are making the priest and Levite both represent “faith” and the Samaritan represent “works”. If this were a parable contrasting faith with works, there would be no need for two people to represent either of those two things. Bottom line - you are incorrect in your interpretation of the parable.

With respect, I disagree. If the two different men receiving two different numbers of more than one talent were relevant, Christ would have treated them differently. He doesn’t. He uses identical language.

My point was – was it not? – that contrary to what was said earlier, Christ DOES repeat examples of his points in His parable.

God bless you, my friend.