Are you 50ish?

[ProVobis]

That’s the way the Sign of Peace was supposed to be, extended from the sanctuary. (The sign of peace is actually in the old rubrics.) Boy, was that messed up as now no one has a clue as to its significance.

 

[Joannm]

That’s the way the Sign of Peace was supposed to be, extended from the sanctuary. (The sign of peace is actually in the old rubrics.) Boy, was that messed up as now no one has a clue as to its significance.

I do not ever remember learning that it was supposed to be extended that way. It is not int he rubrics of the "73 Missal. The servers were never to come down the aisle shaking everyone’s hand. That was probably someone’s interpretation of how it was to be done. In one way he is right, we are giving Christ’s peace to each other and it is not a howdy do moment, but it is to be done “in a sober manner to those immediately around us”. In parishes where there is good catechesis this is brought out to the people.

 

[ProVobis]

I do not ever remember learning that it was supposed to be extended that way. It is not int he rubrics of the "73 Missal. The servers were never to come down the aisle shaking everyone’s hand. That was probably someone’s interpretation of how it was to be done.

You could be right. The handshake of peace between family members and strangers came about in 1970 if not before. One could understand how long it would have taken if they kept the original thought, whether it was an interpretation or not, in place. In the older rite it was done only within the sanctuary at Solemn High Masses and even that was rather lengthy, passing from the priest to the deacon to the subdeacon to the MC and so forth.

 

[PaulinVA]

Yeah, I’m 51, I was there, I saw it.

But I am totally not impressed by this guy. What’s the point? Just ranting against the Church? No thanks.

The last 40 years have indeed been harsh on the Church, but he isn’t the only one who’s realized that. Sarcastically airing the the whole thing out on Youtube isn’t going to solve anything.

 

[onmyknees]

I am 52 and I remember a time before vat. ll when I was in church on Sunday. I was filled with joy and I loved the Latin music! I was hoping that all my non religious friends could hear it too so they would want to come to our beautiful Catholic mass.

I remember everything that Michael said happened with all the changes. Starting in my third grade class with the catechism being taken away and replaced by new religion books that only taught us about peace and love. Our homework in Religion class was making collages of people sharing. We are known as the collage Catholics.
Then our priest ran off with the nun after she trashed her habit. It was all very sad for me when this happened. I must have been in 6th grade.

I could not stand the folk music. I so missed the high mass with the incense, the reverence and the Latin. I slowly fell away from the Church and left at eighteen. As did many others as well.
When I finally came back by His grace, the young pastor was very reverent, and traditional. His homily was about sacrifice, and service. I joined up with a very devout group and learned my faith.

I know of many young people who are really excited about reverence, traditions, devotions, Latin, the new Roman Missal,and vocations to the priesthood and religious life. Alleluia! The tide is changing.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

When you run an agenda-driven website, the truth is what you want it to be. Or rather, what you want others to believe it to be. No objectivity to be found there.

His agenda is the education of Catholics in the Catholic faith.

I prefer to cast my lot with the official Church, the one in Rome run by this guy called Benedict who tells us that both forms of the Mass are equally valid.

Voris has NEVER denounced the ordinary form, or called it invalid. This is a false assumption based on ignorance of his ministry.

While there are plenty of abuses of the OF there are also plenty of places where it is being correctly done. Ranting against the OF will do nothing to fix those abuses. On the other hand doing things like showcasing OF Masses of the Solesmes Congregation of the Benedictines, might serve up a positive example of what the OF really is, at its core: a valid Eucharist steeped in Catholic tradition and Tradition.

**He’s not ranting about the OF. He is denouncing the liberals who changed the Mass to their own preference. **

 

[MartyrForJesus]

His disdain for this liturgy and his proselytization against it is well known and is most likely the very reason his apostolate is not approved.

As far as I know he has never actually asked for it to be approved.

 

[Sirach2]

You are completely misinformed about their asking for approval. Since you state this authoritatively, without asking for verification, I leave you to your erroneous musing.

**

**He’s not ranting about the OF. He is denouncing the liberals who changed the Mass to their own preference. **

** And this is constructive …?

And ranting accomplishes, what …?

To tell the truth, I am 73 and have lived with the “old” mass. NEVER would I wish to return to that liturgy! People that are only 50-ish have never experienced this old liturgy, and have not a shred of experience with it. I have “been there” for both and is the reason I love the OF as it is celebrated reverently in MOST parishes.

 

[TrueLight]

To tell the truth, I am 73 and have lived with the “old” mass. NEVER would I wish to return to that liturgy! People that are only 50-ish have never experienced this old liturgy, and have not a shred of experience with it. I have “been there” for both and is the reason I love the OF as it is celebrated reverently in MOST parishes.

I hate to say this, but you sound like OldMedic.

So I wasn’t there, but based on what I’ve been reading, I have a feeling that one of the positive changes Vatican II brought was a dedication and seriousness to the old mass. More beauty, more reverence than maybe even before.

Sometimes one can takes something for granted. But when one gets it back, it becomes more precious.

 

[PaulinVA]

The good ol’ days usually are not as good as those that were not there remember them…

I have not met anyone (parents, grandparents, older people) in real life who wants a return to the way things were before VII. Maybe it’s the circles I hang in, but all I’ve heard is that understanding the Mass in one’s own language is an immense change for the better. I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.

I am totally disappointed with what the Church has become, though. The lack of faith, the lack of belief in what the Church teaches, the lack of reverence is just appalling. I regularly pray for revival in the Church.

That said, the way forward is not to go backwards. The way forward is to go forward! We need conversion, we need revival, we need evangalization within the Church. The way to do that is not to be holier than thou disrespecting VII and railing against the 'modernists". It’s to approach the problem lovingly with prayer and a good example.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

You are completely misinformed about their asking for approval. Since you state this authoritatively, without asking for verification, I leave you to your erroneous musing.

I simply stated what I have heard, which I probably confused with World Youth Day.

**** And this is constructive …?
And ranting accomplishes, what …?

Yes, it is constructive, when the ‘ranting’ is pointed at the right things. He alerts other Catholics about the abuses and liberalism that crept into the Church in the 70’s, and shows how the Church is gradually fixing itself under the leadership of the Holy Father. Many Catholics like his programmes.

To tell the truth, I am 73 and have lived with the “old” mass. NEVER would I wish to return to that liturgy! People that are only 50-ish have never experienced this old liturgy, and have not a shred of experience with it. I have “been there” for both and is the reason I love the OF as it is celebrated reverently in MOST parishes.

**Ok, well that is your opinion. Sure, people in their 50’s never experienced the 1940s, but to say that they haven’t experienced the ‘old liturgy’ is simply incorrect. The ‘old liturgy’ still exists, and is growing in popularity among young people. The ‘old liturgy’ is 1500 years old, and should be given its proper place. In my personal opinion, I think we should return to using solely the Tridentine Mass.

What I find quite confusing, is some people seem to be able to show such disdain on these boards for the old liturgy and yet people, traditionalists or not, wouldn’t dare to constructively critisize the current ordinary form. They would just about be persecuted for it. **

 

[ProVobis]

I have not met anyone (parents, grandparents, older people) in real life who wants a return to the way things were before VII. Maybe it’s the circles I hang in, but all I’ve heard is that understanding the Mass in one’s own language is an immense change for the better. I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.

The 60’s brought about a heavy decline in Church attendance (and not just the Mass) among other things. This despite being able to use your conscience in conception matters and the removal of the fast requirements, which everyone was also ecstatic with. I suppose it had been bad practice to have to abstain from meat on Fridays as well. Was that a superstition too?

The way forward is to go forward!

Yes, the way the Church had done it for 1900 some years.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

The good ol’ days usually are not as good as those that were not there remember them…

I have not met anyone (parents, grandparents, older people) in real life who wants a return to the way things were before VII. Maybe it’s the circles I hang in, but all I’ve heard is that understanding the Mass in one’s own language is an immense change for the better. I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.

**Maybe because it was their generation that wanted the changes in the first place? “I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.” - Yeah right. I would need to see evidence to support this. Look at how faithful the average Catholic was back then compared to now.
**

I am totally disappointed with what the Church has become, though. The lack of faith, the lack of belief in what the Church teaches, the lack of reverence is just appalling. I regularly pray for revival in the Church.

**I doubt, compared to some traditionalists, that the Novus Ordo caused all of this. I believe it was the liturgical abuses and the liberalism that infiltrated the Church. Watered down versions of the faith offered to the faithful, clericalisation of the laity, poor catechesis, unorthodox clergy, and the sense of the sacred lost due to irreverence, all contributed to the loss of faith and belief in the Church, in my opinion. I have even read articles that argue that allowing Communion in the Hand was a disastrous decision, contributing to the situation in which we have, according to the ‘Third Gallup Poll’ (1992), 30% of Catholics believing in the Real Presence. **

That said, the way forward is not to go backwards. The way forward is to go forward! We need conversion, we need revival, we need evangalization within the Church. The way to do that is not to be holier than thou disrespecting VII and railing against the 'modernists". It’s to approach the problem lovingly with prayer and a good example.

Going ‘forwards’ is subjective. To some Catholics, going ‘forwards’ means going further onward away from tradition, continuing on the road that the Church has been on for the past 40 years. To others, going ‘forwards’ means heading back to tradition, and continuing on as the Church always has in the past.

God Bless.

 

[Sirach2]

onmyknees:

Then our priest ran off with the nun after she trashed her habit. It was all very sad for me when this happened.

This is an isolated incidence, giving a wrong connotation that priests left to marry nuns — all because of V-II. “Trashed” is a snarky word, and does not consider that many nuns were obliged to wear street clothes by the superiors of their Orders, against their better judgment, many of whom are very faithful despite this change.

Starting in my third grade class with the catechism being taken away and replaced by new religion books that only taught us about peace and love.

Interesting. I remember my religion classes requiring the memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, which I can quote to this very day. Unfortunately, memorization failed to help me love Jesus and realize His love for me.

I slowly fell away from the Church and left at eighteen. As did many others as well.

I also left the church at 19, but it was for poor catechesis that never really got the message of salvation to me. When I returned at 37, it was during the transition to the vernacular, but I never came back because of the disciplines, smells, bells, or even the lack of them that so many bemoan. I had fallen love with Christ Jesus and knew Catholicism was for me the Way, Truth and Life.

 

[Sirach2]

MartyrForJesus:

His agenda is the education of Catholics in the Catholic faith.

I earnestly wish that was the truth. All of us could use education in virtue and growing in sanctity and holiness, together with more deeply understanding our faith. As I mentioned before, what good does a rant do to accomplish this most worthy goal?
It serves to divide the faithful, cast doubt on the clergy and Magisterium, and raise a generation of sour pusses with an axe to grind against their Mother Church.

What I find quite confusing, is some people seem to be able to show such disdain on these boards for the old liturgy and yet people, traditionalists or not, wouldn’t dare to constructively critisize the current ordinary form. They would just about be persecuted for it.

I think your “confusion” is totally unwarranted. Those who have been on these boards for awhile will certify that the reverse is true. Rarely do you find any threads/posts criticizing the TLM.

 

[MartyrForJesus]

I earnestly wish that was the truth. All of us could use education in virtue and growing in sanctity and holiness, together with more deeply understanding our faith. As I mentioned before, what good does a rant do to accomplish this most worthy goal?
It serves to divide the faithful, cast doubt on the clergy and Magisterium, and raise a generation of sour pusses with an axe to grind against their Mother Church.

**No, actually it doesn’t. It puts our faith in the Holy Father for spearheading the reform of the reform, to fix the Church. Michael Voris outlines what went wrong, and shows us how the Church is fixing it. I have no idea why you have such a big problem with that. It only divides the ‘faithful’ who would rather turn a blind eye on things that have gone wrong in the Church. Michael runs a ministry on which he is an apologist, and has hundreds of hours of programmes on catechesis. The ‘Vortex’ is simply when he sums up what has been happening in the Church that we should know.

There is a reason the Holy Father is trying to fix things, and bring the tradition back.**

I think your “confusion” is totally unwarranted. Those who have been on these boards for awhile will certify that the reverse is true. Rarely do you find any threads/posts criticizing the TLM.

Really? Well, I certainly see it. I also remember several members that would regularily do it, however I will not name them. I never see Novus Ordo constructive criticisim on these boards.

 

[Sirach2]

TrueLight:

I hate to say this, but you sound like OldMedic.

I don’t know the gentleman, nor have I read his posts. I almost get the feeling you are making a negative comparison.

But I DO know that there have been posts from the few of us who lived during that time, who had not experienced the reverence, beauty, majesty, solemnity that should have been there. This is the simple truth. It is my understanding that this was the main concern for convoking the Council – the reform of the liturgy.

As the TLM exists today embracing all of the above, I rejoice with the Church and those of you who love the EF. For myself, I couldn’t be more pleased, nor celebrate with more devotion, in the OF, as it exists today after all the bumps along the way. Remember, TL, both are Christ’s sacrifice offered to God, and both are pleasing to Him. It isn’t only about rubrics, but the heart, soul and mind giving worship to God - whether or not the trappings are aesthetically pleasing to the senses. It is the ESSENCE that matters. So many forget that. We strive to bring more beauty and perfection in either form, but remember that we are human.

 

[PaulinVA]

Maybe because it was their generation that wanted the changes in the first place? “I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.” - Yeah right. I would need to see evidence to support this. Look at how faithful the average Catholic was back then compared to now.

Following the rules does not equate to faith. People followed the teachings because they thought they had some magical power or they were afraid they were going to hell. People have told me this.

**I have even read articles that argue that allowing Communion in the Hand was a disastrous decision, contributing to the situation in which we have, according to the ‘Third Gallup Poll’ (1992), 30% of Catholics believing in the Real Presence. **

I agree that Communion in the hand and the removal of the altar railing contributed greatly to our present problems.

**

Going ‘forwards’ is subjective. To some Catholics, going ‘forwards’ means going further onward away from tradition, continuing on the road that the Church has been on for the past 40 years. To others, going ‘forwards’ means heading back to tradition, and continuing on as the Church always has in the past.

**I am using "going forward’ in the context of continuing our ongoing journey of faith to work out our salvation. Bringing back latin won’t solve our present problems.

 

[Sirach2]

MartyrForJesus:

Really? Well, I certainly see it.** I also remember several members that would regularily do it**, however I will not name them. I never see Novus Ordo constructive criticisim on these boards.

You’ve been here less than a month, and can name them? Then maybe you are a revert using a new identity.

Nevertheless, you have your ideas about Voris, and the rest of us have ours - no point in trying to change opinions - it won’t work.

 

[zab]

This is an isolated incidence, giving a wrong connotation that priests left to marry nuns — all because of V-II. “Trashed” is a snarky word, and does not consider that many nuns were obliged to wear street clothes by the superiors of their Orders, against their better judgment, many of whom are very faithful despite this change.

Interesting. I remember my religion classes requiring the memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, which I can quote to this very day. Unfortunately, memorization failed to help me love Jesus and realize His love for me.

I also left the church at 19, but it was for poor catechesis that never really got the message of salvation to me. When I returned at 37, it was during the transition to the vernacular, but I never came back because of the disciplines, smells, bells, or even the lack of them that so many bemoan. I had fallen love with Christ Jesus and knew Catholicism was for me the Way, Truth and Life.

**Sirach2 **has some good recollections. Unlike Sirach2, I never lost or left my Faith. But it is more understandable that a teenager of 19 who never really understood his Faith to begin with, would leave the Catholic Church, than for nuns and priests who supposedly had vocations, to suddenly “trash” their habits and leave or run off and get married just after Vatican II if everything was so wonderfull up until that time. I kept my Faith. Shouldn’t those who had holy vocations have been all the stronger? Sirach2’s recollection is correct. Their were many faithful nuns who were ordered by their superiors to either wear a modified habit or wear street clothes against their wishes. I think these faithful nuns have gotten the worst bad rap over the years. Thanks for keeping things straight, Sirach2 .