Are you 50ish?

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PaulinVA:
Following the rules does not equate to faith.
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Nor to holiness, nor to union with God. Well said, Paul.
 
I’m 55, I remember before and after Vat II. It was oppressive before Vat II. We knew rules but not the reasons for them. The rules were enforced with little love.

I believe with what Paulin said that we must move forward, not backward. I don’t want to go back to what it was before Vat II and in fact, it frightens me when I hear people say they want it like that again.

There’s a reason why many of us left the church and the atmosphere before Vat II had something to do with it. Let’s please not go back to that! Can’t there be a happy medium? Better catechism definitely, but not oppression.
 
I’m 55 and remember before and after Vat II. The church was oppressive before Vat II. That’s why it was so needed at the time. Sure, the pews were filled with people who followed the rules. But there was a lack of love and understanding of what was behind the rules.

I am frightened to hear that some want to go back to what it was like pre-Vat II. Really that is NOT a good thing. Let’s keep going forward not backward.

There needs to be a middle ground. Better catechesis for sure, but let’s not swing back the other way again.
 
Michael made a very accurate point about religious sisters.

Happened just like that in our Church. Habit, then business suit and then they all vanished.
 
Ours vanished, too. The school closed and there was no longer a need to employ them as teachers. They moved on to other ministries, perhaps of a more pastoral nature. Just because there is an absence, does not denote giving up one’s vocation.

OTOH, we find a voluminous amount of new vocations in Mother Teresa’s order, and you may have noticed that Rosalind Ross has started a new order. Vocations do not depend on one’s clothing, but on God, Who both calls and sustains. Publicly knocking the few who left does nothing to inspire new women to enter religious life, does it?
 
I’m the same age as Michael Voris’ older brother (57-I did a little ‘mental math’ as I watched his talk 😉 ), and so I still have memories of going to the pre-VII Mass with my family. (And I like Michael Voris anyway…I actually met him in June of this year!)

I remember hearing and reading about the Council (we were big ‘news junkies’, so we watched TV and read the papers a lot). I guess I didn’t mind the change from Latin to English. I remember going to ‘folk Masses’ with guitars; I now blush for shame for doing so.

What I didn’t like as I grew up was the ‘social gospel / political’ aspects of some of the sermons I heard. Growing up during the civil rights / Vietnam War protests will do that.

I always went to Sunday and holy day Mass with my family. I never ‘drifted away’ from the Church as so many of my generation did.

I didn’t like the constant drumbeats in the press about ‘dissident priests and rebellious nuns’, always crying out that they knew better than the Pope!

I never did Communion in the hand, except when ‘forced’ to do so on a couple of retreats.

When I got old enough to drive, i went to Mass on my own; and I have to admit, I’ve done my fair share of ‘parish hopping’. :o

The only things I ever did in parish life were liturgical, reading at Mass and singing, either in a choir or later on as a cantor.

But as I got older, I became tired of the constant invasion of the sanctuary by the laity, particularly by women, and how, many times, the latter would boss the priest around.

I decided to go back to my ‘roots’, and return to the TLM. And I’m happier for it.

Not every OF Mass is done as it is, say, at EWTN or even at St. Peter’s in Rome. I wish it were so here in the Northeast. Yet I do believe that the OF Mass is valid, IF it’s done properly (‘Say The Black, Do The Red’, to quote Father Z).

I just like going to the TLM (EF) now. I’m glad for the silence, the reverence, the priest doing everything, and no laity invading the sanctuary aside from the server.
 
Sirach2 said:
Ours vanished, too. The school closed and there was no longer a need to employ them as teachers. They moved on to other ministries, perhaps of a more pastoral nature. Just because there is an absence, does not denote giving up one’s vocation.

OTOH, we find a voluminous amount of new vocations in Mother Teresa’s order, and you may have noticed that Rosalind Ross has started a new order. Vocations do not depend on one’s clothing, but on God, Who both calls and sustains. Publicly knocking the few who left does nothing to inspire new women to enter religious life, does it?
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Don’t get me started. I was 5 years back in the Church before realizing our parish had female religious.
 
Oh, and another thing: when the catechectical [sp?] craziness started in the mid to late 1960s, I stopped going to formal classes (release-time / after-school for us public schoolers) and instead began reading about the Catholic Faith on my own.

Nothing philosophical or theological…mostly Church History, Lives of the Saints, Marian apparitions (I was big on Lourdes and Fatima back then), things which my eighth / ninth grade brain could wrap itself around…

That way I avoided the bad catechisms and fuzzy teaching that was done in the name of the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’.

I was already confirmed at age 11 in 1966, so I didn’t have to go through the long drawn-out program the kids now have to endure in high school (very little doctrine, a lot of ‘social action / service projects’ ).

Thank God I was born in 1954!
 
I wholeheartedly support every Catholic’s right to worship God in the form of liturgy they feel most edified. What is difficult to accept is all the negativity that some express as rationale for their choice to reject the OF. I wonder if people realize how much this offends Our Lord and grieves those who are very comfortable with the latter, which is, by the way, the** universal** form.

In searching for a quote from Canon Law to post in another thread, I came upon this very serious tenet.
Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.
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Just my two cents: The fact that Voris publicly denounces the “ordinary” and incites subjects with his rancorous videos, calls into question for me whether or not this forum should be hosting anything he says. It is terribly divisive!
 
Barbkw said:
Michael made a very accurate point about religious sisters.

Happened just like that in our Church. Habit, then business suit and then they all vanished.
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They did not all vanish. We have always had faithful, prayerful, humble, holy nuns. You just rarely hear about them. But I think women’s religious vocations are growing, too. We just had one of our young parishioners to enter a cloistered Carmelite order.
 
ProVobis said:
And what would you replace it with going forward? Everything from the Pope and the Mass in Iphone text format?
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No need to be snarky.

Yes, having a common language is useful to keep a people together. But we are now at the point that if your brought latin back into the Mass or other things you would still have a bunch of people who don’t believe and now they won’t understand what’s going on, either.

Latin has it’s place, but it is only a small part of the solution. We need to deal with the fact that Catholics don’t believe anymore.
 
PaulinVA said:
The good ol’ days usually are not as good as those that were not there remember them…:rolleyes:

I have not met anyone (parents, grandparents, older people) in real life who wants a return to the way things were before VII. Maybe it’s the circles I hang in, but all I’ve heard is that understanding the Mass in one’s own language is an immense change for the better. I’ve also heard that there was a lot of superstition in the pre-council days and not necessarily real faith.

I am totally disappointed with what the Church has become, though. The lack of faith, the lack of belief in what the Church teaches, the lack of reverence is just appalling. I regularly pray for revival in the Church.

That said, the way forward is not to go backwards. The way forward is to go forward! We need conversion, we need revival, we need evangalization within the Church. The way to do that is not to be holier than thou disrespecting VII and railing against the 'modernists". It’s to approach the problem lovingly with prayer and a good example.
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I don’t think any of us who loved the mass before Vat ll see ourselves as holier than thou or disrespecting Vat ll. Vat. ll was a good thing and it said to keep Latin in the mass since it was a tradition in the Church. It is all the abuses that some lay people started implementing that we don’t like. And since so many of us did not learn our faith I think we need to inform them these practices that are not a part of Vat.ll. Educating Catholics regarding what is not part of our faith IS moving forward.

I am so passionate about my faith that I cannot help but want to evangelize with a loving example or by talking to anyone who is eager to hear about the faith. I want all souls to go to heaven! It is always with charity. I pray in our Adoration chapel almost every night for the conversion of souls.
 
I don’t think any of us who revere the mass before Vat ll see ourselves as holier than thou or disrespecting Vat ll. Vat. ll was a good thing and it said to keep Latin in the mass since it was a tradition in the Church.
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Were you there to experience it? As an adult? Or are you speaking from your present familiarity with the TLM?

Yes, the Council did say to retain “some” latin, yet they approved and gave specifics with regard to implementing the vernacular. I hope you’re not disagreeing with the direction of the Council, for the OF mass being prayed today has full recognito for its texts, although this will change slightly in Advent.
 
Sirach2 said:
Were you there to experience it? As an adult? Or are you speaking from your present familiarity with the TLM?

Yes, the Council did say to retain “some” latin, yet they approved and gave specifics with regard to implementing the vernacular. I hope you’re not disagreeing with the direction of the Council, for the OF mass being prayed today has full recognito for its texts, although this will change slightly in Advent.
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No, I was not an adult when I remember experiencing the Latin mass. It was around third grade when I knew I loved hearing the Latin chanting at a high mass as well as the bells when Jesus was held up for me to see. I also loved the incense. I was filled with joy. I remember wishing all my friends could come to our Catholic mass because it was so beautiful. I thank my dear father every day for telling me about the real presence in the host when I was about to receive my first holy communion in second grade.

I think that all the reverence and traditions are important and helps the faithful to love Jesus Christ all the more. I have been to the TLM twice but I go to the N.O. on Sundays because it is close to my house. I cannot wait for the new translation!
 
Thanks for letting me know. I did look up your earlier posts and saw that you are a revert. Being one myself, I can well appreciate how much the mass means to both of us. My “reversion” occured during mass, but it was solely due to seeing all the people come back from receiving the Eucharist, and I was unable to do so. I sobbed like a baby and resolved never again to experience the pain of not being united with Jesus when I attend mass - and it never happened again, by the grace of God, for I went to confession the following week.
 
Sirach2 said:
This is an isolated incidence, giving a wrong connotation that priests left to marry nuns — all because of V-II. :rolleyes: “Trashed” is a snarky word, and does not consider that many nuns were obliged to wear street clothes by the superiors of their Orders, against their better judgment, many of whom are very faithful despite this change.

It was not an isolated incidence where I live. We heard of many more who did this. And I agree with you that some of the nuns may not have wanted to wear street clothes. But the older nuns I have met since I came back to the Church have all been very happy to wear street clothes. I think that the habit was a good thing because when people saw they knew that they were a nun and set apart for God. We need more holy examples in our world today.

I have many young friends who are on fire for Jesus Christ, the Church, traditons, devotions, reverence, and vocations to the religious life and priesthood.

Interesting. I remember my religion classes requiring the memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, which I can quote to this very day. Unfortunately, memorization failed to help me love Jesus and realize His love for me.

I live in a very different area than you. We had the changes before you did.

I also left the church at 19, but it was for poor catechesis that never really got the message of salvation to me. When I returned at 37, it was during the transition to the vernacular, but I never came back because of the disciplines, smells, bells, or even the lack of them that so many bemoan. I had fallen love with Christ Jesus and knew Catholicism was for me the Way, Truth and Life.
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Yes, I left because of poor catechesis also. I am so glad that I finally came back and had good faithful people to teach me the faith.

I fell in love with Jesus when I was in second grade but I fell more deeply in love with Him all over again when I knew what He taught and how much He loved each and every one of us!
 
Thankfully our parish priest loves the beauty of languages and so at our N.O. mass we sing the “Sanctus” as well as the “Agnus Dei”. He also chants the Greek “Kyie” as well as the prayers before the consecration but these are in English. He is excited for the new translation, comparing it to Shakespeare.
 
Sirach2 said:
Just my two cents: The fact that Voris publicly denounces the “ordinary” and incites subjects with his rancorous videos, calls into question for me whether or not this forum should be hosting anything he says. It is terribly divisive!
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I didn’t hear any denunciation of any ordinaries?
 
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