Are you 50ish?

[Dymphna82]

Well, I’m 29 and I agree with Voris. From the sounds of it, the old mass made a lot more sense. In fact, I feel spiritually gypped.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

50… never knew anything about it until I was 16 years old. Didn’t really understand what it was. However, I do remember seeing the TLM, but still didn’t know what was going on. Only saw it when we visited my grandparents once a year.

 

[PaulinVA]

martyrforJesus:

It leads to it. Faith can come from superstition and fear. Look at paganism!

No, that’s not faith. Faith is a ‘belief’ in something you haven’t seen. Superstition and fear are doing something because you are afraid of the consequences.

 

[zab]

I am 49; most of what Mr. Voris saw, I saw too: the older pious habits fading out as a more skeptical spirit took hold.

Our parish started a slow recovery about 10 years ago, I’d say. Changes don’t happen everywhere at the same time. Just a few years ago on CAF, someone was mourning the *recent *loss of prayerful silence before and after Mass at her parish. Most parishes haven’t had that for decades, from what I’ve seen.

I was there, too, when our “pious habits” were fading. All the devotions that we used to attend, like the Mother of Perpetual Help Devotions and our Eucharitic Devotions disappeared and our churches that were once open during the day became locked throughout the day. While some of our priests and nuns , perhaps many, may have had reservations of doing some things that they were instructed to do, such as remodeling the sanctuary, or for the nuns to modify their habits, they were obedient. They could not predict what the church would be in 15 or 20 years down the road. But the time was ripe for people with ulterior motives to enter the scene and work their way up (perhaps some were already in place before things changed). It is easy to sit back now and look at all what happened and try to villianize our priests and nuns, many of whom where just trying to be faithful and obedient. Everyone needs somebody or something else to blame for their own failings- why they fell into sin, why they left the church etc. But sometimes our end condition is better than if we had if we had never failed because of our growth during our process of return.

 

[Tigg]

I watch Voris frequently, but can’t call myself a fan because I’m not too fond of his style. I do believe his message is truthful regarding the Church.

It’s really quite simple. By their fruits you shall know them. Since VII, we have seen a huge loss of faith centering around the Source and Summit, the Eucharist, a loss of Catholic identity, an abandonment of the sacred mysteries, “Catholics” living in sin, but receiving the Sacred, unprecedented error and ignorance of the True Faith, and a political “takeover” of much of what poses as church teaching.

**By their fruits you shall know them. **

 

[Sirach2]

Warrenton:

I didn’t hear any denunciation of any ordinaries?

No? It is rather subtle, but who do you believe he is referring to when he uses the label “modernists?” The laity? Warrenton, it is not necessary for me to defend my words, for his own videos all over the internet [not just this thread] convict him more surely than I need to say. He is a very sick puppy that is becoming more and more rabid in his attacks on the Church and it will eventually be his undoing unless he converts. Do you think he lives in the joy and peace of the Spirit? I hardly think so, for he cannot even speak to his audience without using heavy derogatory slurs and gross exaggeration to make a point seem more plausible. [Cassocks are white hooded bedsheets?]

Another member posted more recent links to his talks this week, and I quote from one of them at 2:00 in the tape. “We see the loudmouthed modernists in seminaries and chanceries and social movements in the Church who needed to raise a ruckus so they could overthrow the established order back in the day in the 60’s and 70’s when we 50-year-olds were snotty little kids.” That particular video attempts to convince the audience that the Church and the clergy is thoroughly infected with modernism, all thanks to Vat II.

I ask, who else resides in the chanceries but the “ordinary?” The slurs are rampant, but I haven’t the patience to view the full gamut of his talks, for just a few words into any of them is enough to make a person ill.

The most repugnant of all was his statement in WMD concerning celebrations “versus populum.” This purportedly was done because “the priests doggedly did not want to share center stage with Jesus.”

 

[lizaanne]

He is a very sick puppy that is becoming more and more rabid …

And yet you find it completely acceptable to say such awful things about someone you have never met. How does that work?

~Liza

 

[Sirach2]

Liza, Hello - you’re late. I looked for you yesterday.

Read today’s gospel:
Jesus entered the temple area and proceeded to drive out those who were selling things, saying to them, "It is written, My house shall be a house of prayer,
but you have made it a den of thieves."

It is lawful for the Master [and His servants] to rebuke blatant defamation of the temple. Voris’s own words condemn his actions, whereas I have never condemned his person. You know this to be true, for you don’t miss a lick.

 

[lizaanne]

Liza, Hello - you’re late. I looked for you yesterday.

Read today’s gospel:
Jesus entered the temple area and proceeded to drive out those who were selling things, saying to them, "It is written, My house shall be a house of prayer,
but you have made it a den of thieves."

It is lawful for the Master [and His servants] to rebuke blatant defamation of the temple. Voris’s own words condemn his actions, whereas I have never condemned his person. You know this to be true, for you don’t miss a lick.

You said HE is a very sick puppy. That is a personal attack.

I try to stay out of your vendetta against RCTV, but when it becomes personal someone has to say something.

~Liza

 

[TrueLight]

I watch Voris frequently, but can’t call myself a fan because I’m not too fond of his style. I do believe his message is truthful regarding the Church.

**By their fruits you shall know them. **

I agree with you. I agree with his message, but his style is a little brash!

 

[Sirach2]

Yes, that is my “opinion.” I no longer believe he is deliberately vicious, but mentally sick in his perceptions of the Church and driven by false zeal to right those perceptions by slanderous vendettas. I have just sent a communication to the Archdiocese of Detroit, for it is not my job to take action, other than to expose his errors when I come across them. (trapping lies and falsehoods)

I do trust that they have canon lawyers already looking into this, since I’m definitely not the first to voice concern. The Church gives the faithful this right to contact the bishop concerning abuses. IMO, this is very seriously divisive.

 

[TrueLight]

. I have just sent a communication to the Archdiocese of Detroit, for it is not my job to take action, other than to expose his errors when I come across them. (trapping lies and falsehoods)

I do trust that they have canon lawyers already looking into this, since I’m definitely not the first to voice concern.

Wow!

What is he saying that is so wrong?

Maybe I haven’t watched enough of the videos.

 

[centurionguard]

I’m 58 and I remember that time well. The biggest thing for us was that Mass was going to be in our own language. There was a great discomfort for the adults who were not used to speaking at Mass (no dialogue Masses where I grew up). To my mother’s great mortification, for a while the loudest voice heard was mine as my 12 year old self was very self-assured in giving the responses that Sister had taught us over the course of a month of lunch hours. I remember my sleeve being tugged and ‘not so loud!’ whispered in my ear. Our parish never encouraged singing by the congregation, even 45 years later it’s not done: there’s no hymnal, the choir sings alone and they change Mass settings so often that you can’t really learn one.

The worse thing that came at the time was the destruction of the high altar and the removal of the altar rail, neither of which was mandated by Vat. II but which we were told had been – sometimes I wonder if any priest or bishop from that era actually read the documents or if everything filtered down by word of mouth and got garbled in the process, much like playing telephone.

Totally Agree; I’m almost 54 less a week. I find it confusing as to whether the Holy See actually dictated that the destruction of the High Altar and Communion Rail amongst other things were to be destroyed and ripped away from its moorings. Other than the priest facing the congregation and the Mass said in the Vernacular it seemed far greater than that. I’ve seen beautiful edifying pictures of the Sanctuary before the Novus Ordo.
After the changes it looked more like a train wreck. Huge beautiful statues of Jesus, Mary 8 foot were lassoed with ropes and hulled to the floor and smashed with hammers.
I’ve spoken to two priests who were very young at the time who sadly witnessed it all.
Was it necessary to destroy so much?

I get the sense there was a lot of anger amongst a number of priests during the transition from the TLM and the Novus Ordo. Look how many Jesuit Priest left and many too who underground in a manner of speaking staying with the EF.

To say after 50 years that everything is perfect with the Novus Ordo. Not really.
There’s still a lot of division in the Church because of it. Let the fruits of the Novus Ordo speak for itself.
tanbooks.com/doct/vatican_liturgy.htm

Its good to see Pope Benedict XVI making changes for the better.

 

[zab]

Typical same folks who always have a problem with RCTV come to chime in their “unwanted” 2 cents

Look it’s not everyones cup of tea, we’re sorry if we don’t enjoy hand holding and happy clappy music like some of you do. The Vortex is opinion base! Not once has Voris ever said that his talk is “Dogma”. RCTV has a lot of great resource that is very faithful to the Church other than the Vortix. Please people you always come up with the same old arguments. This subject is just beating a dead horse.

By the way RCTV never requested “press pass” for WYD, they were even shoked that their name even came up.

I don’t know why anyone could say from a moral point of view that the 60s, and 70s were exciting times. From the history I’ve read that’s when moral reletavism prevailed. But if that excites you in some odd way then so be it.

Some of us have our own experiences from what we witnessed and learned. It is insulting for you to say that our contribution to this thread is an “unwanted 2 cents.” Who are you to disrespect the opinions and memories of others on this thread? When I wrote that the beginning time when the Latin Mass was changed to English as being an exciting time, I was only 13 at the time, and I could not predict what the future would be in 15-20 years later.

 

[zab]

Totally Agree; I’m almost 54 less a week. I find it confusing as to whether the Holy See actually dictated that the destruction of the High Altar and Communion Rail amongst other things were to be destroyed and ripped away from its moorings. Other than the priest facing the congregation and the Mass said in the Vernacular it seemed far greater than that. I’ve seen beautiful edifying pictures of the Sanctuary before the Novus Ordo…

And I find it hard to believe that Msgr. H. from my youth would take it upon himself to remodel the sanctuary and remove the altar rail unless he was under some obligation to do so. He was a faithful priest and pastor who loved the Church. I don’t know how or why these things all came about. Some churches were more disturbed than others but why were most Catholic Churches effected? We did not have the fast speed of getting answers then that we have today.

 

[centurionguard]

And I find it hard to believe that Msgr. H. from my youth would take it upon himself to remodel the sanctuary and remove the altar rail unless he was under some obligation to do so. He was a faithful priest and pastor who loved the Church. I don’t know how or why these things all came about. Some churches were more disturbed than others but why were most Catholic Churches effected? We did not have the fast speed of getting answers then that we have today.

Agreed; And yet one has to ask both in the United States and Canada there still remains Basilicas, Cathedrals and Parishes; where the High Altar customarily always seen in the center focal point of the Sanctuary still remains today which is often used as the Tabernacle.

An additional Main Altar built forward in front of the High Altar, with the Priest facing the congregation. And yes Altar Rails still intact as they always were prior to the mid 1960’s.

To me IMHO the mindset of the Novus Ordo Mass didn’t just change the congregation. More so on the Clergy of the time than anything else. Naturally some clergy members saw the change as beneficial. To other clergy members of the time it must have been a total shock. And not always in a good way.

 

[Tigg]

No? It is rather subtle, but who do you believe he is referring to when he uses the label “modernists?” The laity? Warrenton, it is not necessary for me to defend my words, for his own videos all over the internet [not just this thread] convict him more surely than I need to say. He is a very sick puppy that is becoming more and more rabid in his attacks on the Church and it will eventually be his undoing unless he converts. Do you think he lives in the joy and peace of the Spirit? I hardly think so, for he cannot even speak to his audience without using heavy derogatory slurs and gross exaggeration to make a point seem more plausible. [Cassocks are white hooded bedsheets?]

Another member posted more recent links to his talks this week, and I quote from one of them at 2:00 in the tape. “We see the loudmouthed modernists in seminaries and chanceries and social movements in the Church who needed to raise a ruckus so they could overthrow the established order back in the day in the 60’s and 70’s when we 50-year-olds were snotty little kids.” That particular video attempts to convince the audience that the Church and the clergy is thoroughly infected with modernism, all thanks to Vat II.

I ask, who else resides in the chanceries but the “ordinary?” The slurs are rampant, but I haven’t the patience to view the full gamut of his talks, for just a few words into any of them is enough to make a person ill.

The most repugnant of all was his statement in WMD concerning celebrations “versus populum.” This purportedly was done because “the priests doggedly did not want to share center stage with Jesus.”

Yes….he does come on strong, with more than a little hyperbole, but………

Are you denying that Modernism or “post-modernism” does not now dominate much of the Catholic ecclesiastical institution or that Tradition (which is correctly defined, along with Scripture, as forming one single deposit of the faith) is not systemically being attacked from within the Church?

“Henceforth the enemy of the Church is no longer outside the Church; he is now within”. --Pope St. Pius X (1903-1914)

Yes, that is my “opinion.” I no longer believe he is deliberately vicious, but mentally sick in his perceptions of the Church and driven by false zeal to right those perceptions by slanderous vendettas. I have just sent a communication to the Archdiocese of Detroit, for it is not my job to take action, other than to expose his errors when I come across them. (trapping lies and falsehoods)

I do trust that they have canon lawyers already looking into this, since I’m definitely not the first to voice concern. The Church gives the faithful this right to contact the bishop concerning abuses. IMO, this is very seriously divisive.

Canon lawyers??? I do watch many of his shows. I must have missed all those lies and falsehoods. Can you give us specific examples?

 

[zab]

Agreed; And yet one has to ask both in the United States and Canada there still remains Basilicas, Cathedrals and Parishes; where the High Altar customarily always seen in the center focal point of the Sanctuary still remains today which is often used as the Tabernacle.

An additional Main Altar built forward in front of the High Altar, with the Priest facing the congregation. And yes Altar Rails still intact as they always were prior to the mid 1960’s.

To me IMHO the mindset of the Novus Ordo Mass didn’t just change the congregation. More so on the Clergy of the time than anything else. Naturally some clergy members saw the change as beneficial. To other clergy members of the time it must have been a total shock. And not always in a good way.

I believe that those who were faithful, (clergy, religious and laity) remained faithful even through difficult times.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am shocked by some of the coments against a man who loves the Church so much.

here is one good of him. Perhaps some of you really have worldly ideology in your minds.Perhaps some are already in line with the enemies of M Voris.

youtube.com/watch?v=Y2bhTP57nts&feature=related

This man has suffered so much for the love of the Church. what are you doing to protect and spread that the CC should be ruling the world?

 

[Sirach2]

Hello Tigg,

It is beyond the scope of posting to list everything I noted. Catholic Culture is a well-known and respected group that performs ethical site reviews, so I merely refer you to their analysis. This will demonstrate that the opinions I have shared are also well known to others who have voiced the same cautions.

RealCatholicTV is particularly concerned with the inroads of secularism into the Church, and users should be aware that a great many of the programs attempt to expose ecclesiastical shortcomings, with considerable criticism of Church leaders.

The site opened with the support of various bishops in the U.S., though as its programming has become increasingly critical of the Church, some bishops have withdrawn their support. [How do they know this, if not by personal consultation? How would they dare print it if it was untrue?]

While thoroughly approving many of the fine videos made available through this site, CatholicCulture.org recommends caution for two reasons: An apparent animus against the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, contrary to the clear mind of the Church; and a tendency to over-simply complex cultural, ecclesiastical and theological problems, leading sometimes to the assertion of mere opinion as the “real Catholic” position.
Thus those who disagree find their Catholicism put in question. **See the Weaknesses section for examples. **

catholicculture.org/culture/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=4129&repos=2&subrepos=0&searchid=807242

I note the many strengths of the organization, and it demonstrates how much good can be accomplished with media access. Let’s pray that these strengths prevail instead of the failings.

I don’t look for this to have a good end, for other threads elsewhere on the forum eventually wound up being deleted or closed.