Are you a schismatic if you don’t believe Francis is the pope and Benedict is?

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Are you a schismatic if you don’t believe Francis is the pope and Benedict is? A priest said he says Benedict our pope in private masses and Francis in public masses
 
I don’t think that officially qualifies you as as schismatic, but it certainly isn’t a sound position to hold, and is dangerously close to schism. Pope Benedict abdicated his position and Pope Francis was elected to be the new pope. Regardless of your opinion of Pope Francis, He is our Pope, period.
 
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If he believes Benedict is the Pope, why does he not follow his teaching on who is Pope? That seems disobedient to me.

So is it just a formal commitment? “I believe he is the Pope, but not what he teaches.” How does that differ from his attitude toward Francis? Does he respect what Francis teaches, though he does not consider him to be Pope?
 
CHAZER2222 said:
A priest said he says Benedict our pope in private masses and Francis in public masses
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This priest has problems and needs to get some spiritual help.
It’s bad enough that he himself does this privately, but telling others he does it is also putting their souls at risk by sowing doubt about the Church in their minds.

I don’t know where we get all these disobedient priests who somehow convince themselves that they’re crusading for truth, justice, and the Catholic way, but it really needs to stop.
 
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One can be mistaken in good faith as to who the Pope is, while maintaining communion with one’s bishop and the Church as a whole, which would not be schismatic. Things got “messy” in the past where one might be innocently mistaken (as happened with St. Vincent Ferrer).

However, I’ve never met anyone nowadays who could be mistaken like this. Benedict himself publicly resigned and has acknowledged Francis as Pope, the validity of his resignation and the validity of Francis’ election were universally acknowledged by the entire episcopate. It was only after Francis started doing kooky things that some engaged in some wishful thinking to try and pretend Benedict was somehow still in there and everything Francis was doing didn’t count. Alas, that is not the case.

As the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has noted, “the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff” is a dogmatic fact that the Church holds infallibly.

Here’s a good explanation of why this is from a traditional theology manual that is very relevant to this discussion:

Hunter’s Outlines of Dogmatic Theology Vol 1:
First, then, the Church is infallible when she declares what person holds the office of Pope; for if the person of the Pope were uncertain, it would be uncertain what Bishops were in communion with the Pope; but according to the Catholic faith, as will be proved hereafter, communion with the Pope is a condition for the exercise of the function of teaching by the body of Bishops (n. 208); if then the. uncertainty could not be cleared up, the power of teaching could not be exercised, and Christ’s promise (St. Matt. xxviii. 20; and n. 199, II.) would be falsified, which is impossible.

This argument is in substance the same as applies to other cases of dogmatic facts. Also, it affords an answer to a much vaunted objection to the claims of the Catholic Church, put forward by writers who think that they find proof in history that the election of a certain Pope was simoniacal and invalid, and that the successor was elected by Cardinals who owed their own appointment to the simoniacal intruder; from which it is gathered that the Papacy has been vacant ever since that time. A volume might be occupied if we attempted to expose all the frailness of the argument which is supposed to lead to this startling conclusion; but it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine constitution of the Church would be ruined. In just the same way the infallibility extends to declaring that a certain Council is or is not ecumenical.
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To the priest who says Benedict our Pope, I say: if Benedict wants us to unfollow Francis, and instead wants us to follow him, Benedict, again, then he is completely able to tell us that. He is not silenced. The recent writings show that. Also his friends and family can still meet him. He has many Cardinals as his supporters (who respect Benedict’s decision to abdicate), many collaborators, friends… Yet in these seven years nobody ever leaked anything that would indicate that something is completely wrong.

If his abdication was fake, then the number of people that should be kept quiet is enormous. And the risk of someone leaking about the set up would be extremely high.
 
Poor Pope Francis! Can’t say or do a darned thing. For those who have, shall we say, less than charitable thoughts about him, a listen to Fr. Robert Spitzer might help. The Holy Father’s method must be understood - understanding being one of the charisms of the Holy Spirit.

 
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Pope Francis is still the pope. Benedict stepped down, and he said that he recognises Pope Francis as the Pope. I’m not arguing over preferences or anything, some people like Pope Benedict better, some people like Pope Francis better, my favourite Pope is Pope St. Peter because he was a knucklehead. Just because someone might not like Pope Francis, does not mean he isn’t the Pope.
 
Isn’t this a much more complex issue? When Benedict announced he wanted to resign, many people argued a pope cannot resign.

So, can a pope resign? Certainly Benedict and Francis believe so, but is the issue really resolved?

What about a pope with dementia or a brain tumor, or in a coma?

What about even the situation today, with Benedict publishing a book agreeing with Pope John Paul that women cannot be priests, what happens if Francis announces women can be priests?
 
Theory of Benedict still being Pope also rests upon him allowing Cardinals to elect someone who does not hold Petrine Ministry directly BUT is Papal Legate over whole Church and wears Papal vestments as well as acts like Bishop of Rome and has authority to create new Cardinals. Basically Pope Francis would be Pope without infallibility and ability to confirm Ecumenical Councils. Let’s pretend this is true now.
(following is under assumptions it is true)
Pope Benedict certainly wanted to confuse enemies of the Church by this, and this Priest is basically not following what Pope Benedict wants. Even if Benedict is the Pope, Patriarch of Latin Church right now is Francis- or at least direct Legate over entire Church, hence to include his name would basically present Priest to be in communion with Pope Francis and hence with Pope Benedict. So mentioning Pope Francises name can NOT be a bad thing even under this assumption. Mentioning Pope Benedict’s name however ruins his intent of why he did this… hence it isn’t that smart to mention Pope Benedict’s name at all. No one can hold anyone accountable for NOT mentioning Pope Benedict either.
(end of assumption)

If however Pope Francis is the Pope, mentioning Pope Benedict is an indirect act of Schism. This might not entirely result in ipso facto excommunication or any penalty (but it can), but it is indeed a grave matter and shouldn’t be done.

Pope Benedict promised obedience to man whom Cardinals would elect (Pope Francis). Pope can not be obedient to his legate… that makes no sense. Imparting Apostolic Blessing, wearing white zuchetto and calling himself Pope Emeritus are all somehow confusing acts, but in the end he did clearly say he stopped exercising Petrine Ministry. One can not hold office without exercising it’s ministry, at least not lawfully. I believe that genius such as Pope Benedict would not try to do that. Only way Pope Benedict could be Pope if his resignation was invalid but he did not plan it to be… but that is hardly for us to judge.

Even in extreme situation, it has no impact on us whatsoever. Either Pope Francis is the Pope or real Pope wants us to believe that Pope Francis is the Pope. We obey Church in both cases by professing Pope Francis to be the Pope. Easy as that.

So basically, either way it is better to just mention name of Pope Francis.
 
annem said:
What about even the situation today, with Benedict publishing a book agreeing with Pope John Paul that women cannot be priests, what happens if Francis announces women can be priests?
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Even if Benedict is not the Pope and Francis is the real Pope, and Francis announces that women can be Priests we are obliged to disobey, and not follow him. Even if he is a real Pope… so that answers your question.
annem said:
So, can a pope resign?
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History and canon law all suggest Pope can resign. Popes have resigned in history and it was not disputed until now.
 
I for one really like Pope Francis. I feel his mercy and love very easily and you can tell he truly cares about everyone. Saintly person in my opinion.
 
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Dolphin said:
I for one really like Pope Francis. I feel his mercy and love very easily and you can tell he truly cares about everyone. Saintly person in my opinion.
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Most people like that aspect of Pope Francis. He is very humble and very loving person- something he is very respected for by many even outside Catholic Church. What most people have problems with is perception that Pope Francis compromises truth to please others (such as statement about religious diversity with Muslim leaders, which basically suggests something deeply heretical… not explicitly just suggests tho). Pope Francis also tends to be less than clear in his expressions and can confuse people by some things (such as Pachamama incident, advocating Eucharist for people who live in open homosexual relationships or as transgender, or Eucharist for remarried). This all results in people trying to rebel and then justify their rebellion… which is why there are so many conspiracy theories about Pope Francis not being the Pope.

We should just pray for him and pray for ourselves… and pray for the Church in general. Popes have erred before, and we had Popes who were surely worse than humble but confusing Pope Francis is. Church survived, and it always will.
 
Your priest friend is sorely mistaken, and in need of assistance to correct his erroneous thinking.

Pray that he sees the error of his ways, amends his ways, and seeks forgiveness.

Deacon Christopher
 
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