Are You Catholic? Consider this

[Todd_Easton]

***Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. ***

The Church teaches that the creation of the human soul is an act of God. If by “supernatural and spiritual generation” the creation of the human soul is meant, then the statement seems inconsistant with Church teaching. However, if by “supernatural and spiritual generation” the spiritual regeneration of the human soul is actually meant, the kind of spiritual regeneration that occurs in baptism, then I see no problem with what follows concerning the spiritual maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As Revelation 12:17 indicates, not all are called the offspring of the Woman but only “those who give testimony to Jesus and keep the commandments.”

 

[broski234]

How can a human being indwell other human beings ? de Montfort is confusing​

• the Holy Spirit (Who does)
• & Christ (Who does)
• & the Father (Who does)
  with
• a mere saint (who does not).
  Mary cannot do in Christians what God does - this kind of monstrosity leads directly to monstrosities like the idea that she is received in the Eucharist.

Exaggerations like these do far more damage to the veneration of the BVM than all the objections made by non-Catholics - that there is hatred of it, is almost entirely the fault of Catholics; it is they who make it loathsome, by turning her into nothing short of a goddess. They are the real “enemies of Mary”. These monstrosities are utterly unnecessary, as well as wrong.

Actually, I think the point he is touching on is the idea of God’s family covenant, in which he is not far off. Make no mistake about it, when you honor Mary, you honor Jesus and God.

 

[thistle]

Still trying to justify your point instead of finding the Glory and Grace that comes from Our Mother of God. I said what I said and has for St. Aquinas he was profoundly devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary. His little known Marian thought has been gathered in a volume entitled Meditations by the Dominican, Fr. Mezard, O. P.

These selections, “taken verbatum from Aquinas” Fr. Mezard tells us, were culled from the Summa, as well as from his Commentaries on the Hail Mary and the Gospel of St. John. They are arranged in the form of short readings to accompany the feasts and seasons of the liturgical year.

In the Marian prayer of St. Thomas, which is always God-centered and in relation to Christ, we find an emphasis on petition, as well as emphases on contemplation, and even mysticism. This brief paper will reflect these emphases in the light of Mary, mediatrix of grace, a title and function of Our Lady of current interest in the Church. It is a title and function which St. Thomas made his own and integrated into his life of prayer and study. St. Thomas taught that the Blessed Virgin Mary “must be shown every honor, preached and praised, and invoked by us in our every need.”

According to our Angelic Doctor, the Blessed Virgin Mary “was so full of grace that it overflows on to all mankind” and suffices for the salvation of the world. “It is necessary,” he says, "that whosoever desires to obtain favors with God, should approach this mediatrix, approach her with a most devout heart because, since she is the Queen of Mercy, possessing everything in the kingdom of God’s justice, she cannot refuse your petition."Making the thought of St. Bernard his own, St. Thomas reflects that no refusal can exist in the presence of the exceeding charity of her pierced and immaculate heart together with the pierced side and wounds of her Son. For St. Thomas, Mary is the throne of grace of whom "the Apostle speaking to the Hebrews said, ‘let us go with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid’ " (Heb 4: 16).

In the mystery of the Incarnation the Lord himself entered " into the womb of the Blessed Virgin, for she was the wonderful temple of God. …[and now] every creature, yes even every malefactor who runs to it with his whole heart, will be saved and every prayer poured forth in it will be heard." Whatever our difficulty, Thomas counsels us to pray to Mary, “for in every danger you can obtain salvation from this glorious Virgin [and] in every work of virtue you can have Mary as your helper [for] she truly says of herself, 'I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear , and of knowledge, and of holy hope, in me is all grace of the way; in me is all hope of life and of virtue” (Ecclus 24:24).

St.Thomas, like the Fathers of the Church, saw numerous typologies of Mary in the Old Testament. Contemplating the text, “There shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse, and a flower shall rise up out of this root” (Is 11: 1), St. Thomas saw Mary as the root wielding the true rod of saving grace. In another text, “Lift up the rod, and stretch forth thy hands over the sea, and divide it, so that thy children may go through the midst of the sea on dry ground” (Ez 14:16), St. Thomas says that it is Mary who has divided the sea for us, that is the world, so that we might pass safely through it." She “has brought to us the water of grace from the rock, Christ, so that we may drink freely of this life-saving water.”

The source campus.udayton.edu/mary/meditations/thomasaquinas.html

Why do you keep repeating “Still trying to justify your point instead of finding the Glory and Grace that comes from Our Mother of God” instead of answering the question. It getting boring and you come across really arrogant.

I have a devotion to Mary but you seem to have something else.

Are you saying we are obliged to pray to and have a devotion to Mary or we cannot be saved? YES or NO?

Are you saying nobody can even find Jesus without a devotion ot Mary? YES or NO?

Are you saying Mary is equal to the Trinity? YES or NO?

Are you saying its not only God who can dwell in us but also Mary? YES or NO?

No quotes please. Just answer yes or no!

 

[Saint_or_Not]

Why do you keep repeating “Still trying to justify your point instead of finding the Glory and Grace that comes from Our Mother of God” instead of answering the question. It getting boring and you come across really arrogant.

I have a devotion to Mary but you seem to have something else.

Are you saying we are obliged to pray to and have a devotion to Mary or we cannot be saved? YES or NO?

Are you saying nobody can even find Jesus without a devotion ot Mary? YES or NO?

Are you saying Mary is equal to the Trinity? YES or NO?

Are you saying its not only God who can dwell in us but also Mary? YES or NO?

No quotes please. Just answer yes or no!

Why do you keep repeating – False I only mentioned once.

I have a devotion to Mary but you seem to have something else —Based on your post I seriously doubt it
instead of answering the question. It getting boring and you come across really arrogant-- ***Surely you Jest
***Are you saying we are obliged to pray to and have a devotion to Mary or we cannot be saved? YES or NO? ***Salvation comes only from our Lord. however “Let no one presume to expect mercy from God, who offends his holy Mother.” ***
Are you saying nobody can even find Jesus without a devotion ot Mary? YES or NO? I pose you the question . How can you trully love Jesus without Mary?
Are you saying Mary is equal to the Trinity? YES or NO? ***Silly question

Are you saying its not only God who can dwell in us but also Mary? YES or NO? ----- Are you saying that only demons and not the very mother of God can dwell within us. For you to say only God can dwell within us is to deny scripture, and the Gospel , when Christ Himself tells of those possesd, and cast out demons with authority but you are to say that demons can and Mary can not.*
Now I have one question for you. Because you have wasted my time and thus need to be exposed.

Do you Yes or No agree with, and are you in full obedience to our Holy Catholic Church of Rome and Our Holy Father the Pope? **

 

[panoikei]

***I am not being condescending towards you. **Just towards the rest of us? * Look again at the start of my last qoute. " This is not directed towards Thistle".

First of all since you ask, I owe nothing to any of you. Oh yes you do or you’re not being Christian. You owe all mankind the dignity due any person. To deny this is to deny Christ. Second my point is quite simple for those who have a brain. Another insult coming from the mouth of someone still on milk. * The thread started “Are you Catholic? Consider This” I posted a quote from St. Louis de Montfort for consideration*

***“An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus” ***

And lo and behold the rest is history. You step right in it yourself and didnt consider anything but you, your being, your feelings, your point of view, and your interpretation of the faith. Has for me. I only find it interesting the way others and yourself have replied to this thread with the exception of only one, all replies have been contrary to the Holy Spirit, which is part my point. The Holy Spirit would never cause you to hurt your brother and sister. You profess special consideration becuse you are a member of the Rosary Confraternity, and pray the Rosary daily. It appears to me you yeild this has if it was some type of sword that should give you strategic position in argument of your beliefs, and like others you fall victim to the blindness caused by pride. Your pride is forming a serious lack of clarity on what Christ taught us “insert Golden Rule”. Maybe you are just Saying your Rosary, and Not praying the Rosary, however I can not know whats in your heart, I can however judge ones action and ones words without judging their soul. So in final I will say this, my point is and always has been in regard to the thread I started. “Consider the quotes of St. Louis de Montfort” You must be very young to treat such good people with so much disrespect, especially brothers and sisters in Christ. I will say a prayer for you tonight asking the Blessed Mother to intervene for us to bring a gentle spirit upon you. Flowery language for "knocking you on the head and opening your eyes to just how sinful your attitude has been towards others on this particular thread - that you started. My Mother won’t be happy about this. She has made me her child. I adopted the Holy family as my family 31 years ago. Mary is my Mother. She has made that perfectly clear to me in a very special ways that I won’t share with you for your seemingly lack of charity towards people I respect. The Blessed Mother is our Mother. But she is not our God. That would just offend her greatly. I believe you know that already. But some people do approach the Blessed Mother in such a way that it does leave questions in ones mind whether or not its gone overboard. This is where many non-Catholics are spiritualy. Sure, misguided, but it’s understandable and partly our responsibility to help others come to know the fullness of the faith by setting charitable examples, not beating others over the head.

Lighting a candle just for you tonight. It’ll be the Immaculate Heart of Mary/quote]

 

[Saint_or_Not]

***I am not being condescending towards you. ***

Just towards the rest of us? * Look again at the start of my last qoute. " This is not directed towards Thistle".*

First of all since you ask, I owe nothing to any of you. Oh yes you do or you’re not being Christian. You owe all mankind the dignity due any person. To deny this is to deny Christ. Second my point is quite simple for those who have a brain. Another insult coming from the mouth of someone still on milk. * The thread started “Are you Catholic? Consider This” I posted a quote from St. Louis de Montfort for consideration*

***“An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus” ***

And lo and behold the rest is history. You step right in it yourself and didnt consider anything but you, your being, your feelings, your point of view, and your interpretation of the faith. Has for me. I only find it interesting the way others and yourself have replied to this thread with the exception of only one, all replies have been contrary to the Holy Spirit, which is part my point. The Holy Spirit would never cause you to hurt your brother and sister. You profess special consideration becuse you are a member of the Rosary Confraternity, and pray the Rosary daily. It appears to me you yeild this has if it was some type of sword that should give you strategic position in argument of your beliefs, and like others you fall victim to the blindness caused by pride. Your pride is forming a serious lack of clarity on what Christ taught us “insert Golden Rule”. Maybe you are just Saying your Rosary, and Not praying the Rosary, however I can not know whats in your heart, I can however judge ones action and ones words without judging their soul. So in final I will say this, my point is and always has been in regard to the thread I started. “Consider the quotes of St. Louis de Montfort” You must be very young to treat such good people with so much disrespect, especially brothers and sisters in Christ. I will say a prayer for you tonight asking the Blessed Mother to intervene for us to bring a gentle spirit upon you. Flowery language for "knocking you on the head and opening your eyes to just how sinful your attitude has been towards others on this particular thread - that you started. My Mother won’t be happy about this. She has made me her child. I adopted the Holy family as my family 31 years ago. Mary is my Mother. She has made that perfectly clear to me in a very special ways that I won’t share with you for your seemingly lack of charity towards people I respect. The Blessed Mother is our Mother. But she is not our God. That would just offend her greatly. I believe you know that already. But some people do approach the Blessed Mother in such a way that it does leave questions in ones mind whether or not its gone overboard. This is where many non-Catholics are spiritualy. Sure, misguided, but it’s understandable and partly our responsibility to help others come to know the fullness of the faith by setting charitable examples, not beating others over the head.

Lighting a candle just for you tonight. It’ll be the Immaculate Heart of Mary/quote]

***Cough, Cough, Amazing but expected. You evidently have not and will not see anything other than that you wish to see. If you had seen this thread and read it which I am sure you must profess to have done why do you then attack me in such a way and totally disregard anything else that has been posted in this thread. Has for your prayers towards our Blessed Mother I am certain and Positive she will correct you. I am not gentle by nature and I am just has God intends me to be. I however do wish, and it is my prayer to have the gentleness of the great St. Alphonsus de Liguori has he expressed in one of his last works The Glories of Mary. I must confess, I can not help feeling a little special when I have been singled out in such a way without regard to anyone else in this thread. But alas I will greatly cherish this experience, noting the lack of necessity of this forum. No where did I say at anytime that Mary Most Holy was God, and for you to suggest that is a point of mine which to attack me, is telling of your motives. So in Final. I leave you all, never to paticipate again in this foolish act of Apologetics.

***“The Holy Spirit would never cause you to hurt your brother or sister” Has St. Peter sliced the ear of the Jew soldier in the very presence of God? And etc. etc.

And you say pray for her intervention for us. Either you have a mouse in your pocket, or you better go back and read thru this thread.******

Cya
51 Years of Age soon to be Franciscan SFD
“Saint or Not”:tsktsk:

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus

I rest my case.

LOL. That post is a lot of things; but one thing it is not, & does not even try to be, is a reasoned reply, let alone a reasoned refutation. A fine defence that is - very convincing. Can it be that no answer is possible ? ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maybe and maybe not. I’m no expert on these writings, but I am aware that L.D.M loved to use flowery language. Moreover, you are entirely wrong to suggest that only the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God the Father can “indwell” someone depending upon what one might mean by the term. We all know that Satan and his minions can take hold of someone by demonic possession. We also know that Jesus in exorcising demons used some rather interesting language.

In Matthew 12:43-45 Jesus says:

My guess is that DeMontfort is not using the term “indwell” in the same sense as the “indwelling of the Holy Spirit”, and I’m certain that he is not speaking of it in the sense of possession as outlined by Jesus in Matthew 12. I’ve read some excerpts from both Ligouri and DeMontfort on Mary and have also read some excerpts on what they have to say about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The latter excerpts clearly separate their view of God from their views on Mary. If you think that they hold Mary on the same plain as God, then you need to do some reading. They clearly do not.

First - thanks for taking the trouble to comment (unlike some ) ​

I’ve read more de Montfort than Liguori. I realise that both of them - like others who are vulnerable to similar complaints - can have a defence made for their way of speaking; but, they shouldn’t need defending in the first place. What difference is there, between de Montfort’s Marian indwelling, & the NT doctrine(s) of the indwelling ? With the best will in the world (I hope), I can’t see any difference except that de Montfort attributes to the BVM what the NT attributes to Jesus or his Father or the Holy Spirit. And things are made worse by similar Marian ideas found in people like Kolbe, or Father Fehlner (see the latter’s essay at the end of volume 2 of the “Theological Foundations” of the supposed “Fifth Marian Dogma” (a third volume is intended, perhaps already published).

Things do not “add up”. Short of saying that the BVM is received in the Eucharist or was ordained to the priesthood, it seems that any exaggeration is tolerable; the reason things don’t add up is that almost anything (with those exceptions) seems to be defended as allowable, tolerable, or even orthodox - but if a Protestant says something, however well-grounded in the NT, that is pounced on. It’s perfectly tolerable to call the BVM a “quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”, or “Saviouress”, or “daughter of God”, or “mediatrix of all graces”, or something similarly scandalous; but mention a solidly NT fact such as salvation by faith alone, that is, not by works; & the RC criticisms fairly rain down. It really does seem that as long as Mary is exalted, the damage that this does to the “balance” & “shape” of the contents of the NT simply does not matter

I’ve done a good deal of reading, & this superexaltation of the BVM is not a personal* tic* of a writer here and there - it’s not universal either (Aquinas is free from it, as was Augustine), but it is very widespread. Liguori & de Montfort should not need defending - & whatever they may say, & however Christian their own “personal equations” may be, it would be difficult to maintain that they emphasise the indwelling of the Christ or the Holy Spirit in the Christian: de Montfort’s entire book is built on an implicit denial of this NT truth, for he constantly emphasises that the average Christian is unclean, unworthy, & sinful, & must therefore not approach God directly, but must do everything only in & through Mary. A more absolute denial of the perfect mediation of Christ it would be hard to imagine. God becomes Louis XIV in a sort of Heavenly Versailles. Is the Catholic reader going to realise from de Montfort’s book that he has access to God through Christ in the Spirit ? If he is not aware of this already, ISTM that one may not unreasonably doubt it. Nowhere does de Montfort mention this NT fact - St.Paul & St. John might as well have saved their breath & their time.

No wonder certain Protestants accuse the CC of preaching “another Gospel” - I don’t blame them.

Again, thank you for taking time to reply.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

---

Saint or Not:

I am not being condescending towards you. Look again at the start of my last qoute. " This is not directed towards Thistle".

---

Saint or Not:

***First of all since you ask, I owe nothing to any of you. Second my point is quite simple for those who have a brain. The thread started “Are you Catholic? Consider This” I posted a quote from St. Louis de Montfort for consideration ***

***"An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God’s true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. ***

## He’s welcome to his opinion - for that is what it is: an opinion; and one without much foundation. Not everyone has the same devotional attractions - one would have thought that a Catholic priest would know this. He had no business trying to hector Catholics into adopting his own devotional preferences.

***He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus" ***

And lo and behold the rest is history. You step right in it yourself and didnt consider anything but you, your being, your feelings, your point of view, and your interpretation of the faith. Has for me. I only find it interesting the way others and yourself have replied to this thread with the exception of only one, all replies have been contrary to the Holy Spirit, which is part my point. You profess special consideration becuse you are a member of the Rosary Confraternity, and pray the Rosary daily. It appears to me you yeild this has if it was some type of sword that should give you strategic position in argument of your beliefs, and like others you fall victim to the blindness caused by pride.

## Is it not just conceivable that the OP is acting in good faith ?

***Maybe you are just Saying your Rosary, and Not praying the Rosary, however I can not know whats in your heart, I can however judge ones action and ones words without judging their soul. ***

## It looks from this post as though plenty of judging of souls has taken place. If calling someone an “enemy of God” is not a judgement on the person’s soul, what is ? The intolerance of the author for any view but his, is one of the least pleasant features of the book.

So in final I will say this, my point is and always has been in regard to the thread I started. "Consider the quotes of St. Louis de Montfort"
:newidea:

 

[Eucharisted]

Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father.:

Nice quote from St. Cyprian of Carthage! But you misquoted the saint, Cypria actually says:

"Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).*

• I found a snipet of the above quote here.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The Church teaches that the creation of the human soul is an act of God. If by “supernatural and spiritual generation” the creation of the human soul is meant, then the statement seems inconsistant with Church teaching. However, if by “supernatural and spiritual generation” the spiritual regeneration of the human soul is actually meant, the kind of spiritual regeneration that occurs in baptism, then I see no problem with what follows concerning the spiritual maternity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. As Revelation 12:17 indicates, not all are called the offspring of the Woman but only “those who give testimony to Jesus and keep the commandments.”

But - how does that not make the BVM all but a co-equal, & active, principle of regeneration ? It sounds as though the BVM either​

• proceeds from the Father in some way, like a female, & embodied, counterpart of the Holy Spirit - or:
• sends the Holy Spirit - or
• replaces the Holy Spirit - or
• something else equally “iffy”.
  Given that Bulgakov (I think it was him) evolved a set of ideas in which the BVM is a sort of human equivalent of Sophia, the Divine Wisdom, Mariology does seem to have a pronounced tendency to turn into a sort of - well, Gnostic myth Maybe Slavonic Mariology is alone in going OTT - maybe

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Actually, I think the point he is touching on is the idea of God’s family covenant, in which he is not far off. Make no mistake about it, when you honor Mary, you honor Jesus and God.

Jesus Christ is a bit more important than the BVM. There is no comparison. If the FC was referred to, the reference was invisible ​

 

[Eucharisted]

Jesus Christ is a bit more important than the BVM.​

Even the most perfect creature is but an atom compared to God, and I say “atom” because I can’t think of anything smaller.

(Yes I know what you meant, I’m just picking on you )

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Even the most perfect creature is but an atom compared to God, and I say “atom” because I can’t think of anything smaller.

(Yes I know what you meant, I’m just picking on you )

LOL - I quoted that in my first post on this thread. How about something even smaller :newidea: - such as a boson ?​

That Cyprianesque quotation is de Montfort’s adaptation of Cyprian’s words - you can find it in paragraph 30 of his book, here:

• http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

 

[Eucharisted]

LOL - I quoted that in my first post on this thread. How about something even smaller :newidea: - such as a boson ?​

That Cyprianesque quotation is de Montfort’s adaptation of Cyprian’s words - you can find it in paragraph 30 of his book, here:

• http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

Funnily enough, my reply is actually a paraphrase Saint Montfort once said of Mary lol Amazing how divine Providence works

 

[thistle]

To Saint or Not.

St John of the Cross has some words for someone like you:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervour, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arises to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”

 

[BRB1]

---

anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father.

God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them because they are, alas, other Esaus.

:***

Christ didn’t teach the above.

John did perceive Mary, intrusted to his care at the cross, as belonging to all believers.

Mary doesn’t reside within us, although she can draw close to us … as our Spiritual Mother. The CC portrays Mary as the neck of the Church … able to distribute graces from Christ to the Church body, and also able to intercede on our behalf to Christ.

Many Protestants don’t appreciate Mary and her role. They do have the Spirit of Christ, but have not yet learned to honor Mary. They don’t dislke/disrespect Mary, they just don’t see her role foretold in scriptures as do Catholics.

 

[Pax]

First - thanks for taking the trouble to comment (unlike some ) ​

I’ve read more de Montfort than Liguori. I realise that both of them - like others who are vulnerable to similar complaints - can have a defence made for their way of speaking; but, they shouldn’t need defending in the first place. What difference is there, between de Montfort’s Marian indwelling, & the NT doctrine(s) of the indwelling ? With the best will in the world (I hope), I can’t see any difference except that de Montfort attributes to the BVM what the NT attributes to Jesus or his Father or the Holy Spirit. And things are made worse by similar Marian ideas found in people like Kolbe, or Father Fehlner (see the latter’s essay at the end of volume 2 of the “Theological Foundations” of the supposed “Fifth Marian Dogma” (a third volume is intended, perhaps already published).

Things do not “add up”. Short of saying that the BVM is received in the Eucharist or was ordained to the priesthood, it seems that any exaggeration is tolerable; the reason things don’t add up is that almost anything (with those exceptions) seems to be defended as allowable, tolerable, or even orthodox - but if a Protestant says something, however well-grounded in the NT, that is pounced on. It’s perfectly tolerable to call the BVM a “quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit”, or “Saviouress”, or “daughter of God”, or “mediatrix of all graces”, or something similarly scandalous; but mention a solidly NT fact such as salvation by faith alone, that is, not by works; & the RC criticisms fairly rain down. It really does seem that as long as Mary is exalted, the damage that this does to the “balance” & “shape” of the contents of the NT simply does not matter

I’ve done a good deal of reading, & this superexaltation of the BVM is not a personal* tic* of a writer here and there - it’s not universal either (Aquinas is free from it, as was Augustine), but it is very widespread. Liguori & de Montfort should not need defending - & whatever they may say, & however Christian their own “personal equations” may be, it would be difficult to maintain that they emphasise the indwelling of the Christ or the Holy Spirit in the Christian: de Montfort’s entire book is built on an implicit denial of this NT truth, for he constantly emphasises that the average Christian is unclean, unworthy, & sinful, & must therefore not approach God directly, but must do everything only in & through Mary. A more absolute denial of the perfect mediation of Christ it would be hard to imagine. God becomes Louis XIV in a sort of Heavenly Versailles. Is the Catholic reader going to realise from de Montfort’s book that he has access to God through Christ in the Spirit ? If he is not aware of this already, ISTM that one may not unreasonably doubt it. Nowhere does de Montfort mention this NT fact - St.Paul & St. John might as well have saved their breath & their time.

No wonder certain Protestants accuse the CC of preaching “another Gospel” - I don’t blame them.

Again, thank you for taking time to reply.

Thanks for the kind words and your well presented observations. Your posts are always informative.

 

[broski234]

Jesus Christ is a bit more important than the BVM. There is no comparison. If the FC was referred to, the reference was invisible ​

I never said the BVM is as or more important than Christ. I simply said, honoring her is honoring God and Jesus Christ.

 

[BRB1]

Are you more learned than the Saints? Is not the word of a Saint to be considered more vaulable than that of a Catholic Chat Forum member? You said and I quote “No matter how strong our devotion to Mary it is not she but only God who can dwell within us” It appears you are at disagreement with a Saint.

Having recently become Catholic, I’m discovering Catholics often believe as they wish on BVM. Just like Protestants.

However, I do think the CC has the correct dogma on Mary. If Catholics (and some past saints) have mistaken views of Mary … it should no longer be for lack of clear Church teaching on the matter.

For the full story on BVM and the Church … obtain 6-Vol. CD on topic by Tim Staples @ Catholic Answers. He will soon be covering the Assumption of Mary in a similar CD series.