"Are you Catholic or are you Christian?" (and other stuff)

[JWH123]

The primary cause of this seems to be that the Protestants claim that we Catholics, who were baptized as infants when we cannot possibly ascertain anything for ourselves, are not “born again Christians” according to their definition of the term.

To them:

Christian = a born again person
Catholics = not “born again”; born again means that the person answers an altar call and makes a conscious choice of his/her own volition to follow Jesus. Did you do that when you were 3 weeks old? I highly doubt it. And the “my parents made the choice for me” answer doesn’t count in their world.
Therefore, Catholics are not Christians. (But perhaps someone who became Catholic through RCIA would be viewed differently since those people did make a conscious decision???)

 

[dronald]

The primary cause of this seems to be that the Protestants claim that we Catholics, who were baptized as infants when we cannot possibly ascertain anything for ourselves, are not “born again Christians” according to their definition of the term.

To them:

Christian = a born again person
Catholics = not “born again”; born again means that the person answers an altar call and makes a conscious choice of his/her own volition to follow Jesus. Did you do that when you were 3 weeks old? I highly doubt it. And the “my parents made the choice for me” answer doesn’t count in their world.
Therefore, Catholics are not Christians. (But perhaps someone who became Catholic through RCIA would be viewed differently since those people did make a conscious decision???)

I believe you’re incorrect about one thing and that’s the altar call part.

Even the most ignorant of the Evangelical crowd will likely say they believe Catholics are saved as long as they’ve accepted Jesus. It’s the practices that worry some.

Again, not condoning but rather speaking from experience.

 

[JWH123]

Gotta admit I hear this too.

Usually it’s ignorance. To give others the benefit of the doubt (which is sometimes a healthy thing among Christians) if an Evangelical sees Catholicism as something so different; that is, worshiping Mary, praying to saints, rituals, a Pope who pretends to be Christ and the horrors committed in the dark ages. Then they see their beliefs as “Jesus is my saviour and I put my whole trust in Him.” Then one must understand them separating the two Religions when one is so utterly different in their mind.

Although not correct, it may not be entirely evil. Although ignorant, in their heart it’s Jesus and only Jesus while Catholics worship Mary too and therefore is another Religion. The reason I say it’s not evil is their intentions truly are that they’re afraid for Catholic’s souls if said Catholics aren’t putting their faith in Jesus enough.

So patience and education are key. The world is getting smaller and we’re all starting to recognize our common enemies that are (imo) Secularism, prosperity Gospels, the huge heresies like Mormonism and Jehovah Witness, and dare I say Islam. I do believe this attitude of trust is far more prevalent these days than in the past between Catholics and Evangelicals.

All that said, I do not condone ignorance. But patience and education is needed. We’re growing closer.

Could we get together and rid the world of prosperity gospel teachers? Whenever I see people on facebook share the “pearls of wisdom” of these quacks, it seriously makes me want to vomit. We worship for ourselves, and that is what makes God happy? God wants us all to be millionaires? Is that really what Jesus followers are supposed to believe? Where is the talk about taking up the cross? Where is the talk that we will be hated and perhaps martyred for our faith? What’s next, heaven and hell are just a figment of our imaginations?

 

[dronald]

Could we get together and rid the world of prosperity gospel teachers? Whenever I see people on facebook share the “pearls of wisdom” of these quacks, it seriously makes me want to vomit. We worship for ourselves, and that is what makes God happy? God wants us all to be millionaires? Is that really what Jesus followers are supposed to believe? Where is the talk about taking up the cross? Where is the talk that we will be hated and perhaps martyred for our faith? What’s next, heaven and hell are just a figment of our imaginations?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NauXtlDLE7A

 

[JWH123]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=NauXtlDLE7A

How many thousands of lost souls follow this lunacy?

Beyond being non-Biblical, her ramblings don’t even make sense to a rational human being, no matter what their faith is/was. I love the response, that many people are now dumber after listening to her.

 

[Peter_J]

Another observation: I’ve always found it interesting that, before Vatican II Catholics were reluctant (or worse) to call protestants “Christians”; then after the Council made it clear that they are Christians, Catholics started to consistently refer to them as such, but with a bit of a negative edge. As if to say “Well of course they’re Christians. That’s not complimentary or anything.”

 

[benhur]

We had a protracted discussion, on a recent thread, about the fact that Lutherans (and Anglicans) are usually not called “Catholic” because that term (with a capital C) is usually defined to mean members of the Roman Communion.

However, I wonder if we could have a worthwhile discussion about the other side of the coin: that many/most protestants (who are not Anglican or Lutheran) see “Catholic” as a negative term, which is to say that they wouldn’t want to be called Catholic, regardless of whether we claim exclusive ownership of the term or not.

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)

Sometimes it works the other way. Years ago there was an "I Found It ", an evangelical "campaign"of going door to door to share the reality of Jesus and I recall several folks saying, “No thanks, I am Catholic”. Now that sounds normal and understandable but back then it struck me. We were not pushing any denomination but being quite generically Christian, yet we could not talk of Jesus in the same terms.

 

[benhur]

We had a protracted discussion, on a recent thread, about the fact that Lutherans (and Anglicans) are usually not called “Catholic” because that term (with a capital C) is usually defined to mean members of the Roman Communion.

However, I wonder if we could have a worthwhile discussion about the other side of the coin: that many/most protestants (who are not Anglican or Lutheran) see “Catholic” as a negative term, which is to say that they wouldn’t want to be called Catholic, regardless of whether we claim exclusive ownership of the term or not.

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)

Part of the reason for this might be that like my church, where half the members were "seeded’ in Catholicism (raised up in it),but birthed in Protestantism (born again). They will tell you they were not “Christian” before this rebirth. So naturally they are careful not to assume that other Catholics are “born again”. To be fair, they may not assume anyone is saved just because they say they are of such and such a church ( Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Orthodox). So this is not just a Catholic - Christian thing. The flip side is that they also understand that being born again is not subject to any particular denomination, not even their own, and that there are " saved " Catholics, Baptists , Lutherans etc . The criteria is not sectarian but whether you truly know Jesus and He you in a saving fashion.

 

[Peter_J]

Sometimes it works the other way. Years ago there was an "I Found It ", an evangelical "campaign"of going door to door to share the reality of Jesus and I recall several folks saying, “No thanks, I am Catholic”. Now that sounds normal and understandable but back then it struck me. We were not pushing any denomination but being quite generically Christian, yet we could not talk of Jesus in the same terms.

This is a bit tangential to what you said, but you just reminded me of a comment a Catholic made about a dozen years ago: she said “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist.”

Now don’t get me wrong please: this wasn’t “before my Catholic days”, so I was already convinced of the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist and the importance of it. But to say “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist” … well, quite frankly I think it’s just as well that none of my protestant friends were there, because I wouldn’t know how to explain that to them.

 

[benhur]

Another observation: I’ve always found it interesting that, before Vatican II Catholics were reluctant (or worse) to call protestants “Christians”; then after the Council made it clear that they are Christians, Catholics started to consistently refer to them as such, but with a bit of a negative edge. As if to say “Well of course they’re Christians. That’s not complimentary or anything.”

I just heard that on radio, that there is vast difference between Vat 1 and vat 2. We are now “brethren”. The edge may come from what usually goes with it , “separated brethren”. A bit like second class. I have not sensed a negative attitude from Catholics but just a doctrinally defined division. …I also understand that many will say Vat 2 did not change anything, and that basis for the "kindness’’ has always been there.

 

[Godspells]

We had a protracted discussion, on a recent thread, about the fact that Lutherans (and Anglicans) are usually not called “Catholic” because that term (with a capital C) is usually defined to mean members of the Roman Communion.

However, I wonder if we could have a worthwhile discussion about the other side of the coin: that many/most protestants (who are not Anglican or Lutheran) see “Catholic” as a negative term, which is to say that they wouldn’t want to be called Catholic, regardless of whether we claim exclusive ownership of the term or not.

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)

I want you to know, I as a Protestant have vehemently opposed using that differential. Catholics are Christians (the terms are not mutually exclusives) and in fact were called Christians prior to the reformation.

For that matter I also believe all Catholics go to heaven, notwithstanding their worship of the pope, cannibalism, calling priests father, worshiping Mary and all the other stuff they are accused of.

 

[andrewstx]

I believe you’re incorrect about one thing and that’s the altar call part.

Even the most ignorant of the Evangelical crowd will likely say they believe Catholics are saved as long as they’ve accepted Jesus. It’s the practices that worry some.

Again, not condoning but rather speaking from experience.

I’m not so sure. I was raised in an Evangelical/Fundamentalist sect. And they alone (churches of Christ) thought they were the only Christians in the world.

In fact they used the name Christian as a sort of brand name for their sect. They would say "Are you a Christian or a Baptist Catholic, Methodist ".

This was not an insignificant group either, They have hundreds of thousands of members in the southwest and south. Where they vie with the Baptist for first place.

They do not call themselves Protestants either, they are certain they are the only Christians.

 

[benhur]

This is a bit tangential to what you said, but you just reminded me of a comment a Catholic made about a dozen years ago: she said “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist.”

Now don’t get me wrong please: this wasn’t “before my Catholic days”, so I was already convinced of the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist and the importance of it. But to say “I can’t talk about Jesus without talking about the Eucharist” … well, quite frankly I think it’s just as well that none of my protestant friends were there, because I wouldn’t know how to explain that to them.

I guess that fits with “talking in the same terms " about Jesus”. Too bad about division but on positive note that CS Lewis suggested , “Communion”, eucharisting, is still one of our most unifying “activities”, under any definition of Real Presence, because it is done by all Christians.

 

[Godspells]

I guess that fits with “talking in the same terms " about Jesus”. Too bad about division but on positive note that CS Lewis suggested , “Communion”, eucharisting, is still one of our most unifying “activities”, under any definition of Real Presence, because it is done by all Christians.

I agree with that. Though I’ve never been to a protestant church that gave communion due respect.

One I went to used root beer and saltines. It was in an impoverished neighborhood, but even with my theology at the time I thought this was a bit sacrilegious.

 

[Mystophilus]

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)

Given that I have just been told in a forum here that a Protestant publication of a Catholic Bible edition is a case of “the fox in the hen-house”, since “the Protestants are expert in using Bibles and Bibles studies to dupe ignorant persons and have done so for hundreds of years”, such exclusivist polemics are hardly unidirectional.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

At the southern Baptist church I attend they will distinguish between Catholic and Christian and I correct them every time.

 

[rcwitness]

Gotta admit I hear this too.

Usually it’s ignorance. To give others the benefit of the doubt (which is sometimes a healthy thing among Christians) if an Evangelical sees Catholicism as something so different; that is, worshiping Mary, praying to saints, rituals, a Pope who pretends to be Christ and the horrors committed in the dark ages. Then they see their beliefs as “Jesus is my saviour and I put my whole trust in Him.” Then one must understand them separating the two Religions when one is so utterly different in their mind.

Although not correct, it may not be entirely evil. Although ignorant, in their heart it’s Jesus and only Jesus while Catholics worship Mary too and therefore is another Religion. The reason I say it’s not evil is their intentions truly are that they’re afraid for Catholic’s souls if said Catholics aren’t putting their faith in Jesus enough.

So patience and education are key. The world is getting smaller and we’re all starting to recognize our common enemies that are (imo) Secularism, prosperity Gospels, the huge heresies like Mormonism and Jehovah Witness, and dare I say Islam. I do believe this attitude of trust is far more prevalent these days than in the past between Catholics and Evangelicals.

All that said, I do not condone ignorance. But patience and education is needed. We’re growing closer.

I see what you are saying, and agree in part.

But here is the important part of what this faith misses: What is the Holy Spirit telling them? It’s not about what we want to believe. It’s about what the Father in heaven reveals to us. They are not listening to Jesus if this is their belief. They are listening to a false Spirit. If their intentions were to obey the Holy Spirit, they would hear His voice in the Teachings of the Catholic Church. They would seperate themselves from the false accusations, and the Catholics who have a false understanding of their own faith. Jesus told Peter, “What is it to you if he tarry til I come? You follow me.”

If someone can go to a Mass and leave believing it is not a holy devotion to delivering the Gospel of Jesus in unison with the whole Church on earth, and sending us out to do the same, then no matter what their intentions are, they are not listening to the Jesus they think they are honoring above all else.

 

[Peter_J]

Given that I have just been told in a forum here that a Protestant publication of a Catholic Bible edition is a case of “the fox in the hen-house”,

You mean they’re not?

 

[Peter_J]

.

 

[ignatius777]

We had a protracted discussion, on a recent thread, about the fact that Lutherans (and Anglicans) are usually not called “Catholic” because that term (with a capital C) is usually defined to mean members of the Roman Communion.

However, I wonder if we could have a worthwhile discussion about the other side of the coin: that many/most protestants (who are not Anglican or Lutheran) see “Catholic” as a negative term, which is to say that they wouldn’t want to be called Catholic, regardless of whether we claim exclusive ownership of the term or not.

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)

Well its absolutely silly to think Catholics are not Christians