Are You In Favour Of Women Joining The Diaconate?

[Rascalking]

I’m in favor of it, but it’s not going to happen and I trust the Church knows what they are doing on this issue. It’s not something I lose sleep over. I do think it’s not fair to women though.

 

[Digitonomy]

That is a discussion on the MP, but, not the actual document itself.

That was back in post #11:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html

 

[Digitonomy]

That is a discussion on the MP, but, not the actual document itself.

Here is Omnium in Mentem:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20091026_codex-iuris-canonici_en.html

 

[drforjc]

I’m in favor of it, but it’s not going to happen and I trust the Church knows what they are doing on this issue. It’s not something I lose sleep over. I do think it’s not fair to women though.

No one has a right to be ordained, therefore questions of “fairness” or “injustice” are fallacious in regard to this question. If I have a right to something and am being deprived of my right, then it is unjust and unfair. Absent a true right, not unfair and not unjust.

 

[TheMc]

No one has a right to be ordained, therefore questions of “fairness” or “injustice” are fallacious in regard to this question. If I have a right to something and am being deprived of my right, then it is unjust and unfair. Absent a true right, not unfair and not unjust.

Anyways, no woman has ever been called to the ordained deaconate, or ever will. There’s nothing unfair about that.

 

[Rascalking]

No one has a right to be ordained, therefore questions of “fairness” or “injustice” are fallacious in regard to this question. If I have a right to something and am being deprived of my right, then it is unjust and unfair. Absent a true right, not unfair and not unjust.

Okay. I never said it’s a right. I still don’t think it’s fair to women, regardless. I actually don’t much care though. It’s just not that important to me.

 

[rkrispies]

Here is Omnium in Mentem:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20091026_codex-iuris-canonici_en.html

While this document does seem to separate the diaconate from the episcopate and presbyterate, it does not abolish canon 1024:

Can. 1024 A baptized male alone receives sacred ordination validly.

That pretty much slams the door shut right there.

 

[TheMc]

Can. 1024 A baptized male alone receives sacred ordination validly.

Can we end this discussion now? There’s nothing unfair or discriminatory about this.

 

[Rascalking]

Can. 1024 A baptized male alone receives sacred ordination validly.

Can we end this discussion now? There’s nothing unfair or discriminatory about this.

Awesome! There’s that open minded attitude!

Yeah, there is nothing worse than a discussion. Those are spooky. People shouldn’t be talking, asking quesitons, learning and debating.

 

[po18guy]

Deaconess was a position that existed when cultural taboos prohibited men from touching women during baptisms. Now that the cultural taboo no longer exists, just what would be the true purpose of the position?

 

[TheMc]

Awesome! There’s that open minded attitude!

Yeah, there is nothing worse than a discussion. Those are spooky. People shouldn’t be talking, asking quesitons, learning and debating.

Who said you need to be open minded on things like this? The church has spoken definitely.

That being said, are you open minded on the question of murder? Do you think it is wrong? What? You think it is wrong to kill someone else for fun?!?!? Tsk. Tsk. Why aren’t you more open minded?

There’s nothing wrong with discussion. But why discuss something like this when we know with complete certainty what the result will be? Nothing is more annoying that someone staring truth in the face, but turning away and yelling “but you’re not open minded!”

What do you mean by “open minded”?

 

[puzzleannie]

is this a trick question?
you do know this is a Catholic forum and the popes have answered this definitively for all time–women cannot ever be, nor have they ever been, admitted to Holy Orders. Period. end of discussion. there can be no opinion poll on defined church teaching.

. . I do think it’s not fair to women though.

that is something you will need to take up with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who made the rules in the first place

 

[Rascalking]

Who said you need to be open minded on things like this? The church has spoken definitely.

That being said, are you open minded on the question of murder? Do you think it is wrong? What? You think it is wrong to kill someone else for fun?!?!? Tsk. Tsk. Why aren’t you more open minded?

There’s nothing wrong with discussion. But why discuss something like this when we know with complete certainty what the result will be? Nothing is more annoying that someone staring truth in the face, but turning away and yelling “but you’re not open minded!”

What do you mean by “open minded”?

Yes, because murder is the moral equivalent to having females become deacons. What an odd thing to say.

 

[Rascalking]

is this a trick question?
you do know this is a Catholic forum and the popes have answered this definitively for all time–women cannot ever be, nor have they ever been, admitted to Holy Orders. Period. end of discussion. there can be no opinion poll on defined church teaching.

that is something you will need to take up with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who made the rules in the first place

I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks. It’s nice though-sort of shuts up any argument, huh? Just say, “Take it up with Jesus!”

 

[sing4joy]

Yes, lay women can do it, but if a priest or deacon is able, he always should do it before a layperson does.

Not to mention women never will be ordained to the deaconate. Is there really that much confusion about this? Only men con receive holy orders. End of story.

That is exactly true. So called deaconesses were really only nuns.

Sorry, incorrect. They were widows. There were no nuns yet. And their major obligations had to do with Baptisms and instruction.

 

[TheMc]

puzzleannie:

is this a trick question?
you do know this is a Catholic forum and the popes have answered this definitively for all time–women cannot ever be, nor have they ever been, admitted to Holy Orders. Period. end of discussion. there can be no opinion poll on defined church teaching.

that is something you will need to take up with your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who made the rules in the first place

I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks. It’s nice though-sort of shuts up any argument, huh? Just say, “Take it up with Jesus!”

Yes it does! The thing is, it’s exactly right. That’s the way he set up the church. If we don’t like it, that’s the thing to do: take it up with Jesus. He set it up that way. If you have any better ideas, let me know.

 

[kildare]

I really have no knowledge of this matter so whatever the church says, I’m ok with it.
If they allow female deacons - I will obey.
If not, I will obey as well!

And I hope you all will as well!

 

[Jesus_123]

+*In all peace and charity . . . *

There is no such word as “deaconess” in Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . only “deacon” . . . and of the Seven Sacraments of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . the Sacrament of Holy Orders . . . which includes . . . *both priests and deacons *. . . is exlusively reserved for men . . . as so attested to in Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . and by our Holy Mother Church’s Magesterium.

The “deaconess” movement is essentially an error which has cropped up now and again in Christendom over the centuries . . . and continues to be embraced in this day and age on the protestant side of the church . . . However . . . neither the word “deaconess” . . . nor the concept . . . has ever been a valid part of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church’s Magesterium’s doctrines or dogmas. This error continues to be propagated and practiced among some . . . only . . . “some” . . . protestant churches . . . however by no means do all protestant churches embrace the error . . . The majority of Baptists . . . who comprise the largest protestant denomination in the United States . . . only ordain deacons . . . in strict obedience to :bible1: Biblical teaching . . . as do many other churches which use the Sacred :bible1: Scriptures as the foundation of their Christian Faith . . .

Our Holy Mother Church teaches . . . and has always taught . . . that the . . . Sacrament of Holy Orders . . . is reserved for men of **God ** alone . . .

There have always been holy women who have wonderfully ministered to God and Christ and His Church . . . as well as men . . . and there are many references to them througout God’s **Holy :bible1: Word **. . . The wondrous holy mystery of the . . . complimentarity . . . and . . . reciprocity . . . of the masculine and the feminine permeates all of creation and our Holy Mother Church who is the Bride of Christ . . . the strangeness of men and women trying to breach the boundaries purposed as holy and good by God. . . is one of the gravely disordered evil plagues of today . . . permeating both the now dominantly pagan culture of our world . . . and . . . our Holy Mother Catholic Church . . .

We as women have our . . . Holy Mother . . . the . . . **Blessed Sinless Virgin Mary **. . . who was never termed as a “deaconess” . . . as our model and guide to holiness, purity, charity, peace, kindness, mercy, obedience and good works of every kind . . . and the great and beautiful mystery of the feminine as created by God is personified in her . . . and is juxtaposed to the masculine throughout all creation and within our Holy Mother Church . . . God expressed as masculine permeates Sacred :bible1: Scripture . . . Christ as God the Son is always expressed as masculine . . . as is God the Holy Spirit . . . Christ is the Holy Groom for Whom our Holy Church is being prepared as His Holy Bride . . . and men in our Holy Mother Church are ordained to be priests and deacons as part of the beautiful extraordinary mystery of masculinity . . . however . . . no man was ever considered and created to be the . . . **Holy Mother of God **. . . that realm and mystery of life and being in God was consecrated and set apart only for a woman . . . the Blessed Virgin Mary . . .

God means for us to reverence, study, learn and . . . celebrate . . . in peace and with joy . . . the holy God created purpose and mystery of the marvelous differences between the masculine and the feminine . . . not ignore them . . . and certainly not to try to warp and change them by mankind’s darkened minds and sinful souls disordered self-centered lustful desires . . . from the perfect and holy . . . **Image of God **. . . in which we were all originally created . . . and meant to thrive . . .

Women as His beloved creatures . . . within the marvelous extraordinary mystery and created purpose of God for the feminine . . . which is exemplified by our . . . **Holy Mother Mary **. . . through her sinless life and being alone . . . have been blest with a beauty and holiness of mission and purpose of authentically holy graced femininity . . . which emerges in countless ways . . . being chaste holy single women . . . holy wives . . . holy mothers . . . holy women religious . . . walking in holy pathways in . . . Christ our Lord . . . *none of which by-the-way men will ever be . . . *

*In dedication to the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart . . . *

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You our Holy Triune God+
. . . thank you Blessed Virgin Mary our Mother+
:harp:​

​

 

[JKirkLVNV]

There’s not even a question here. The Council of Nicea, in canon 19, clarified that the women who were referred to as “deaconesses” don’t actually possess Holy Orders. The title is simply honorific (the term deacon means “servant” or “server,” so in the same way we might call a female saint “Servant of God” without meaning that to mean she was a Deacon of God).

Just so.

 

[Digitonomy]

canon 1024:
That pretty much slams the door shut right there.

Canon 1024 slams the door shut on any current sacred ordination of women. I think almost everyone in this thread agrees that is the current rule. What some are suggesting is a change in rules to allow either sacred or non-sacred (whatever that may be) ordination of women. Canon law can be changed; the question in this case is whether there is an underlying divine law that precludes such a change.

puzzleannie:

the popes have answered this definitively for all time–women cannot ever be, nor have they ever been, admitted to Holy Orders.

I would like to read these definitive answers. The most definitive statement I’m aware of is from John Paul, but I believe he only discussed priestly ordination.

TheMc:

That being said, are you open minded on the question of murder? Do you think it is wrong?

I don’t think your analogy is the best because murder is against natural law, while the qualities of the Sacrament of Holy Orders are a matter of divine law.