Are you pro-gun, or anti-gun?

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

That’s like saying there is no need to lock your door. If someone really wants to get in, a way will be found. Also, it also assumes that every angry or temperamental person can be identified, arrested, and locked up ahead of time, just so he will not be able to use a gun.

That’s not really a bad idea… just pick out anyone who exhibits anti social behavior and lock them up. They would not be able to use a gun or do any harm…I like that idea.

Now don’t come back with an argument about violating people’s rights…unless you intend to defend my rights to posses and carry any legal firearm I choose.

 

[Rau]

Not at all – in fact, less so than you were! After all, Tepo only complained about the “mandated healthcare”, not health care in general, and yet, look at the selective cherry-picking you engaged in! You explicitly accused him of being against health care, based only on the fact that he asserted that he was against this administration’s health care scheme!

Let’s review TEPO’s statement and my response. TEPO said:
“They’ve already **mandated healthcare **now more gun restrictions too?”

I responded with a **question **for clarification. I said:
“Are you against healthcare, or against that you have to have it?”

[Note: We are using “healthcare” to mean “health insurance” - that is what the scheme is about.]

And finally, in your post (above and in forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12107789&postcount=826 ) you falsely state that I **accused **TEPO of being against healthcare.

Please note TEPO said nothing about the Obama healthcare policy/implementation - he just expressed exasperation that healthcare had been mandated!. My question in response was entirely reasonable.

It was you Gorgias who later introduced the suggestion that TEPO’s issues was with the particulars of the healthcare plan, nominating , “the ways that it tramples personal religious liberty”. **None of this was said or implied by TEPO **(even if he meant to).

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Let’s review TEPO’s statement and my response. TEPO said:
“They’ve already **mandated healthcare **now more gun restrictions too?”

I responded with a **question **for clarification. I said:
“Are you against healthcare, or against that you have to have it?”

[Note: We are using “healthcare” to mean “health insurance” - that is what the scheme is about.]

And finally, in your post (above and in forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12107789&postcount=826 ) you falsely state that I **accused **TEPO of being against healthcare.

Please note TEPO said nothing about the Obama healthcare policy/implementation - he just expressed exasperation that healthcare had been mandated!. My question in response was entirely reasonable.

It was you Gorgias who later introduced the suggestion that TEPO’s issues was with the particulars of the healthcare plan, nominating , “the ways that it tramples personal religious liberty”. **None of this was said or implied by TEPO **(even if he meant to).

What has health care got to do with this discussion???

Where is my guarantee??

 

[Rau]

Rau, I am simply looking for a guarantee that something good will come from a restriction of my ability to own and use a firearm for legitimate purposes.

…I am willing to give up my **guns **if it will make the world a better place. All you have to do is **guarantee **that I will never face a threat that a gun could provide some reasonable protection from…

You cannot guarantee the converse - that you are actually safer by virtue of a provision that enables every Tom, Dick and Harry to be armed. So there is no mileage in that line of debate. *nearly everyone *gets to have one.]

 

[Rau]

What has health care got to do with this discussion???

Ask TEPO - he raised it.

Where is my guarantee??

Where’s mine?

 

[GaryTaylor]

We do. You form a judgement about the merits of a gun in **your **hands, and conclude it is good. But the judgement that matters is on the merits of guns in the hands of just about anyone who wants one. For that is what this “right” delivers, and I see no good in that.

Good is non sequitur. Your assumption is incorrect as was your last which led you two times to false conclusions. And what you think is based on unfounded fear and probably a false illusion of the world. The judgement as stated, is not a judgement its a Right by the second amendment. And its not very hard to see why the guns fall on silence here with our current administration. Perhaps an agenda to put God in schools, stop abortion, and address the long neglected mental health is the solution, in fact I’m positive it is.

The gun isn’t the issue, its the intent and enacted desire of the individual who picks it up. And as we see, and as soon as we get back to restructuring our mental health and so forth the symptoms of the problem will be mitigated. We should all get on board with the concern over Americas mental heath service. When is the last time you spoke about this. Or is your plight the unfounded anti gun fear driven agenda ONLY?

 

[Rau]

Good is non sequitur. Your assumption is incorrect as was your last which led you two times to false conclusions. And what you think is based on unfounded fear and probably a false illusion of the world.

Oh, well. That makes sense (not)!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh, well. That makes sense (not)!

Right back at you. You don’t have a mind reading degree in case you missed the point.

Person[here]--------------------------------------------------Gun[here]

Inbetween is the issue, I don’t see any screaming about anything between. Can’t see anything then but misguided agenda. And one is contingent on the other as we see. So to put this in perspective, to fast forward to the gun is either an agenda or complete misunderstanding of the issue.

 

[Rau]

The judgement as stated, is not a judgement its a Right by the second amendment.

Read my post again - of course it is a judgement that you form. That you (and nearly everyone else) are able to action it is a consequence of a right granted in a man-made document.

I’ve not argued that guns are the root of all evils - though the gun lobby likes to suggest that is the view of their opponents as a means of ridicule. IMHO, gun ownership is just an unwelcome, unhelpful addition to the mix.

Better healthcare, particularly mental health, would be a good thing. US government policies have not been too effective at enabling the poor to access good healthcare. I just read a news report of a study identifying the US as having the worlds most expensive health care system, but coming last on the measures of efficiency, equity and outcomes. 11 wealthy nations were included in the study. Many nations have an appalling lack of commitment to mental health.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Read my post again - of course it is a judgement that you form. That you (and nearly everyone else) are able to action it is a consequence of a right granted in a man-made document.

I’ve not argued that guns are the root of all evils - though the gun lobby likes to suggest that is the view of their opponents as a means of ridicule. IMHO, gun ownership is just an unwelcome, unhelpful addition to the mix.

Better healthcare, particularly mental health, would be a good thing. US government policies have not been too effective at enabling the poor to access good healthcare. I just read a news report of a study identifying the US as having the worlds most expensive health care system, but coming last on the measures of efficiency, equity and outcomes. 11 wealthy nations were included in the study. Many nations have an appalling lack of commitment to mental health.

Its a Right “indivisible”, I and many believe God given. And it doesn’t matter if it was written on the beach in low tide since God gave it. So the mention of paper doesn’t diminish anything which is implied by paper. But hey with comments here like survival of the fittest and such, who ever thought a real conversation about America was forth coming anyway.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Better healthcare, particularly mental health, would be a good thing. US government policies have not been too effective at enabling the poor to access good healthcare. I just read a news report of a study identifying the US as having the worlds most expensive health care system, but coming last on the measures of efficiency, equity and outcomes. 11 wealthy nations were included in the study. Many nations have an appalling lack of commitment to mental health.

Its a government issue as there is so much corruption and misappropriated funding its sad. And we went from the wild west to the wild world police, at the same time as we are now basically neglecting, mishandling and abusing mental health.

 

[Rau]

Its a Right “indivisible”, I and many believe God given. And it doesn’t matter if it was written on the beach in low tide since God gave it.

If you believe the right is indeed God given, then there is no longer a debate to be had. Perhaps someone will start a thread on healthcare?

But more seriously, God gives individuals freedom to do more or less anything - Free Will. This includes for groups to form societies, and to make rules for those societies. And the rules invariably restrict the rights of individuals, for otherwise, no functioning society is possible. The US constitution (the men who wrote it) came down on one-side of this gun question; in another time or place, men come down on a different side of the question.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If you believe the right is indeed God given, then there is no longer a debate to be had. Perhaps someone will start a thread on healthcare?

I do believe it is, life liberty the pursuit of happiness is contingent on your right to protect and be safe so there can indeed be life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And since we refuse to put God back in the schools we can’t elevate the mass minds to correct understanding of martyrdom and so forth, then the confusion at the far end of the spectrum really should be no surprise we have american terrorists running around in Gods Country.

Is it really any wonder the dissent on guns in America is going on? The government has the people alarmed with its agenda.

 

[Rau]

Its a government issue as there is so much corruption and misappropriated funding its sad. And we went from the wild west to the wild world police, at the same time as we are now basically neglecting, mishandling and abusing mental health.

I agree Government policy on this subject has not been good, but I think there is a wider question-mark over the role of the society. Look at the enormous and growing disparity between the mega-rich and the “average” (let alone the poor) in the US - this cannot be a good thing. I suspect that the societal ill that seems OK with this may be the same ill that you refer to in regard to the abandonment of the mentally ill.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I agree Government policy on this subject has not been good, but I think there is a wider question-mark over the role of the society. Look at the enormous and growing disparity between the mega-rich and the “average” (let alone the poor) in the US - this cannot be a good thing. I suspect that the societal ill that seems OK with this may be the same ill that you refer to in regard to the abandonment of the mentally ill.

Right it becomes a combination of many issues. For example even the healthcare which is debatable as to good or bad, is part of the whole issue now which is a contingent on the mental heath and really has taken on an aura of a cattle processing factory. Look at the atrocity of the veterans VA and the government, then you would see how this trickles down to welfare, mental heath.

Further Americas world wide health care of the starving poor and innocent always involves the abortion agenda which is indicative of the inner works here.

 

[Rau]

And since we refuse to put God back in the schools we can’t elevate the mass minds to correct understanding of martyrdom and so forth, then the confusion at the far end of the spectrum really should be no surprise we have american terrorists running around in Gods Country.

Is it really any wonder the dissent on guns in America is going on? The government has the people alarmed with its agenda.

Education would make another interesting Thread…

While I kind of understand why God is not put into the government schools (after all - whose God?), it amazes me that the (US) Governments will not contribute any funds to private (eg. Catholic) schools. These schools educate kids, saving the Government a mozza, yet the Government happily takes the parents’ taxes without funding their kids’ education! Seems a bit tough to me.

My Australian friends (again) reckon they have a better system. The Catholic (and other private) schools get about 80% of the funding from the Government that a Government school would get, and parents top this up by way of school fees. I believe Catholic schools educate about 20% of the students in Australia (many of the students are themselves non-Catholic), so the saving to the Government is considerable. It’s essentially an equitable win-win. The State schools also make available one lesson period per week to religious groups (Catholics, Jews, etc, etc.) to teach Scripture or equivalent. Parents nominate which, if any, they want their child to attend.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Education would make another interesting Thread…

While I kind of understand why God is not put into the government schools (after all - whose God?), it amazes me that the (US) Governments will not contribute any funds to private (eg. Catholic) schools. These schools educate kids, saving the Government a mozza, yet the Government happily takes the parents’ taxes! Seems a bit tough to me.

My Australian friends (again) reckon they have a better system. The Catholic (and other private) schools get about 80% of the funding from the Government that a Government school would get, and parents top this up by way of school fees. I believe Catholic schools educate about 20% of the students in Australia (many of the students are themselves non-Catholic), so the saving to the Government is considerable. It’s essentially an equitable win-win. The State schools also make available one lesson period per week to religious groups (Catholics, Jews, etc, etc.) to teach Scripture or equivalent. Parents nominate which, if any, they want their child to attend.

This is another issue here as the very hand that is really indeed helping and always has, is strangled in effect. Even in the media, look at EWTN.

 

[DianePa]

I am not only pro-gun but a lifetime member of the NRA and have a concealed carry permit’
Read this and perhaps that might give you some insight why I favor a right to be armed:

The right to bear arms is the first thing that the leftist progressives want removed from our present Constitution (if they can!). If they can’t, you will likely be hearing a call from the LEFT for a “Constitutional Convention” on the grounds that our present constitution is out of date and doesn’t meet the needs of America today, pure nonsense. Plain and simple.

The Quintessential reason - Why Grandpa carries a gun: Please take time to read this and pay particular attention to “A Little Gun History” about half way down.

Why Carry a Gun? My old grandpa said to me ‘Son, there comes a time in every man’s life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually it’s when he becomes too old to take a butt whoopin.’

I don’t carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don’t carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry.I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don’t carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron.
Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually
just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take a butt whoopin’.
~author unknown~ (but obviously brilliant) Continue reading below.

---

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.​

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

---

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.​

You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are ‘citizens.’ Without them, we are ‘subjects.’

During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America, because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense.
The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.
The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! IT’S A NO BRAINER! DON’T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

I’m a firm believer in the 2nd amendment of our consitution.

 

[Annie39]

I am not only pro-gun but a lifetime member of the NRA and have a concealed carry permit’
Read this and perhaps that might give you some insight why I favor a right to be armed:

The right to bear arms is the first thing that the leftist progressives want removed from our present Constitution (if they can!). If they can’t, you will likely be hearing a call from the LEFT for a “Constitutional Convention” on the grounds that our present constitution is out of date and doesn’t meet the needs of America today, pure nonsense. Plain and simple.

The Quintessential reason - Why Grandpa carries a gun: Please take time to read this and pay particular attention to “A Little Gun History” about half way down.

Why Carry a Gun? My old grandpa said to me ‘Son, there comes a time in every man’s life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually it’s when he becomes too old to take a butt whoopin.’

I don’t carry a gun to kill people.
I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don’t carry a gun to scare people.
I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid.
I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil.
I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government.
I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry.I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy.
I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man.
I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate.
I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don’t carry a gun because I love it.
I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron.
Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime, they usually
just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take a butt whoopin’.
~author unknown~ (but obviously brilliant) Continue reading below.

---

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.​

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

---

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.​

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.​

You won’t see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are ‘citizens.’ Without them, we are ‘subjects.’

During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America, because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense.
The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.
The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD! IT’S A NO BRAINER! DON’T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

I’m a firm believer in the 2nd amendment of our consitution.

Hi Diane

If you read through this thread you’ll see that there are those who continue to post here who do not want to be confused with facts. This issue for them is emotional so the facts that you post won’t have any effect. Neither will this shovedtothem.blogspot.com/2014/06/don-bring-knife-to-gun-fight.html but I’m posting it anyway.

Annie

 

[DianePa]

Hi Diane

If you read through this thread you’ll see that there are those who continue to post here who do not want to be confused with facts. This issue for them is emotional so the facts that you post won’t have any effect. Neither will this shovedtothem.blogspot.com/2014/06/don-bring-knife-to-gun-fight.html but I’m posting it anyway.

Annie

I loved the story written by Rebecca Frech. She is a hero in my eyes.