Are you saved if you are nontrinitarian?

[MacQ]

Outside the Church there is no salvation, and neither are those who deny the Trinity are saved.

.

That is not the teaching of the Church.
perhaps you should consult the documents of Vatican II for clarification.
And the Catechism.

 

[Seraphim73]

Properly speaking a heretic would be a person who held the Catholic faith but then began to deny teachings. Either way you have to ask what is your goal. If you just want to score polemic points by all means throw the terms heretic and schismatic around with abandon. But if you want to witness to Christ you do that with gentleness and love. If we drive people away from the Church by our words we will have to give account for that someday. And don’t give the line that Jesus was harsh with people or that this saint or that saint used the terms. None of us are Jesus and none of us are saints.

 

[Path_Finder]

Acts 10:48 too.

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then they desired him to tarry with them some days.

 

[MacQ]

Be careful. None of us can say who is saved and who is not. In order to deny the Trinity one must understand that which he is denying. Only God knows the human heart and he desires that none be lost. Each of us relies on God’s mercy and that is where we place our hope for all people.

In fact, we believe people can be saved who have never heard the word “Trinity”.

Yes, this.
This is the answer to the question of the thread.

 

[HyrumBaker]

Life eternal is to know God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The trinitarian doctrine is the central mystery and doctrine of Orthodox Christianity. The nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ was decided by vote done by men. It’s a dogma essent ail for salvation. I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings. Stephen has his vision of heaven, and says that He saw God the Father and The Lord Jesus sitting at his right hand side. Who does he refer to as God in this vision? Some points as well- (1) Orthodox Christianity came to accept that the Father was the Creator, rather than having created through Jesus Christ. John’s gospel plainly states that Christ (whom he calls “the Word”) created all things (John 1:1-14; Col. 1:13-17).
(2) It came to accept that the Father was the God or LORD of the Old Testament. But the Bible shows that this personage was actually Christ (I Cor. 10:1-4).
(3) Orthodox Christianity believed that many people had spoken with the Father (in the Old Testament). Yet Jesus declared that no man had seen or heard the Father (John 5:37). And, because the Father was unknown to the world, one purpose of Christ’s coming was to reveal Him (John 1:18, Luke 10:22).
(4) It came to believe that the Father and Son are “one” by some mystical way. However, the Bible says the Father and Son are “one” in the same sense that all members of the Church are “one” in unity and purpose (John 17:11).
(5) Orthodox Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning monotheism—that God was one being. Yet two distinct Beings are identified in the beginning of John’s gospel (1:1-2). Likewise, Genesis 1:26 records a conversation between these two God Beings. Notice: “And God said, Let Us make man in Our image…” The word “God” derives from the Hebrew Elohim (a plural term—actually a collective noun—similar to kingdom, family or church).
Rather than the God Family being a closed trinity, as accepted by Christianity, this Family will expand through the many begotten sons of God yet to be born into it (John 1:11-12; Rom. 8:14, 19; I John 3:1-
Theosis, partaking in the divine nature of God.

 

[Robyn_p]

Life eternal is to know God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The trinitarian doctrine is the central mystery and doctrine of Orthodox Christianity. The nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ was decided by vote done by men. It is a dogma essent ail for salvation. ** I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings.**

Hyrum, are you aware that the very canon of the New Testament, which you are using to try and disprove the Church’s faith, was decided in the same way as the Trinity? In other words, the same Church which defined the contents of the New Testament also defined the Trinity.

So I ask you this, and I think this really is the crucial question here, why accept the Church’s decision regarding the Scriptures, but not regarding the Trinity? If you believe God guided the Church in compiling the New Testament, (which is the only way we can be confident that the books we have there actually belong in the New Testament.) does it make sense that He would not do the same when the Church went about defining who He is? If eternal life is to know God as you have rightly pointed out, then the Trinity is an even more important doctrine to get right then Scripture is. Because the Trinity is concerned with Who God is in His very essence. Why would God allow the Church to get something so critical so utterly wrong?

I encourage you to seriously ponder this. Because it can only be one or the other. Either the Church is guided by God in its teachings or not. If not, then everything, even the very inspiration and canon of Scripture itself, is up for grabs. If it is however, then it makes no sense to accept some of the Church’s teaching but reject others.

 

[Robyn_p]

I would agree with those who have said "who can say? ". I have a question though about your scenario of the adult Catholic… if they know what the CC teaches about the Church, mortal sin and other faith matters, but do not follow the teachings because they are not convinced, is their salvation in serious jeopardy according to Catholics and the Church? In re-reading some posts I guess John Martin might have been touching on this in his post referencing about conscience and walking away.

Objectively, yes. If someone clearly knew and understood what the Church taught, and still rejected it, then yes their soul is in jeopardy. Invincible ignorance only applies to those who don’t know. That’s a completely different animal from rejecting something simply because you disagree with it.

That said, we still leave the judging of individuals up to God, because only he can see the heart and only he knows whether someone was rejecting the actual faith or a misconception of it. That’s not something any of us this side of heaven have the power to know.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If one denies the trinity, by either denying a person of the trinity like all other non Christians do concerning the Holy spirit and Jesus. Or outright denies the one God, I find it difficult to see how they will become “saved” or glorified.

That being said, we should feel ourselves worse than the worst trinity denier. It isn’t our place to judge even them while on earth, it’s God’s to determine.

 

[Seraphim73]

I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings.

The doctrine of the Trinity is crystal clear in the Scriptures both Old Testament and the New. Jesus says that “the Father and I are one” and He prays for us to be one “just as You and I are one” and that “all that belongs to the Father is mine.” Jesus names Himself as God many times. The Scriptures really couldn’t be more explicit.

 

[Path_Finder]

The doctrine of the Trinity is crystal clear in the Scriptures both Old Testament and the New. Jesus says that “the Father and I are one” and He prays for us to be one “just as You and I are one” and that “all that belongs to the Father is mine.” Jesus names Himself as God many times. The Scriptures really couldn’t be more explicit.

Yes, you are correct, Jesus says “those who have seen Me have seen the Father” and the whole “I am” deal which the Pharisees saw as in fact, blasphemy, certainly speaks of Jesus saying He Himself is God.

This in fact, seems a bit fundamental but sometimes people who interpret the Bible for themselves will miss such points.

 

[Marie5890]

Life eternal is to know God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The trinitarian doctrine is the central mystery and doctrine of Orthodox Christianity. The nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ was decided by vote done by men. It’s a dogma essent ail for salvation. I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings. Stephen has his vision of heaven, and says that He saw God the Father and The Lord Jesus sitting at his right hand side. Who does he refer to as God in this vision? Some points as well- (1) Orthodox Christianity came to accept that the Father was the Creator, rather than having created through Jesus Christ. John’s gospel plainly states that Christ (whom he calls “the Word”) created all things (John 1:1-14; Col. 1:13-17).
(2) It came to accept that the Father was the God or LORD of the Old Testament. But the Bible shows that this personage was actually Christ (I Cor. 10:1-4).
(3) Orthodox Christianity believed that many people had spoken with the Father (in the Old Testament). Yet Jesus declared that no man had seen or heard the Father (John 5:37). And, because the Father was unknown to the world, one purpose of Christ’s coming was to reveal Him (John 1:18, Luke 10:22).
(4) It came to believe that the Father and Son are “one” by some mystical way. However, the Bible says the Father and Son are “one” in the same sense that all members of the Church are “one” in unity and purpose (John 17:11).
(5) Orthodox Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning monotheism—that God was one being. Yet two distinct Beings are identified in the beginning of John’s gospel (1:1-2). Likewise, Genesis 1:26 records a conversation between these two God Beings. Notice: “And God said, Let Us make man in Our image…” The word “God” derives from the Hebrew Elohim (a plural term—actually a collective noun—similar to kingdom, family or church).
Rather than the God Family being a closed trinity, as accepted by Christianity, this Family will expand through the many begotten sons of God yet to be born into it (John 1:11-12; Rom. 8:14, 19; I John 3:1-
Theosis, partaking in the divine nature of God.

Hyrum,

Im guessing by the way you lay out your view, the use of the martydom of Stephen as well as the use of the word “Godhead” that you are Mormon? Am I correct in that?

If so, I would suggest that you may find it helpful in your understanding of Catholicism to use the “search” function when it comes to the LDS vs the Catholic views of the nature of God.

Welcome to CAF.

The Catholic vs Mormon threads can really get involved, and if not careful, heated.

 

[Sy_Noe]

 

[Sy_Noe]

Properly speaking a heretic would be a person who held the Catholic faith but then began to deny teachings. Either way you have to ask what is your goal. If you just want to score polemic points by all means throw the terms heretic and schismatic around with abandon. But if you want to witness to Christ you do that with gentleness and love. If we drive people away from the Church by our words we will have to give account for that someday. And don’t give the line that Jesus was harsh with people or that this saint or that saint used the terms. None of us are Jesus and none of us are saints.

Good point. It’s always a puzzle to me when the faithful are harsh in such ways. I wouldn’t have thought they would want to drive people away.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Objectively, yes. If someone clearly knew and understood what the Church taught, and still rejected it, then yes their soul is in jeopardy. Invincible ignorance only applies to those who don’t know. That’s a completely different animal from rejecting something simply because you disagree with it.

That said, we still leave the judging of individuals up to God, because only he can see the heart and only he knows whether someone was rejecting the actual faith or a misconception of it. That’s not something any of us this side of heaven have the power to know.

I didn’t mean to get away from whether what one believes about the Trinity relates to salvation but thanks Robyn for the answer.

 

[benjohnson]

I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings.

youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

 

[TK421]

If you believe the scriptures to be the word of God, and The Lord Jesus Christ to be the savior, but reject the Athansian Creed, and are nontrinitarian, are you saved?

Salvation isn’t dependent - by any margin whatsoever - on a person being in possession of certain knowledge and insight about God. If this were the case, the Church’s most astute and knowledgeable members in history - the apostles, the Doctors of the Church, would be deemed as if bumbling fools before God’s throne.

Can a non-trinitarian be saved? Yes, and just as easily as what a trinitarian can be. Why? Because salvation is an act of God that is given to man with great pleasure, not an act of man that is given to God. To illustrate: it is God who is at work in baptism, and it is the baptized who is on the receiving end. All infants are non-trinitiarian, because this is not something that is intuitive to the human person. The infant is merely an infant.

If we reword this question in a different way: can a person who obstinately rejects the Trinity be saved? The answer is: they cannot, because they have forfeited the gift presented to them. The Trinity is family, community, and Love. The revelation given to us about God is not inconsequential, but tells us about who He is, even if we can never fully grasp Him. It is not possible to surrender yourself to His love and reject who He is all in the same breath. What damns the person is not whether or not they are in possession of certain revelation or intellectual knowledge. Being in possession of such knowledge is not in of itself at all meritorious, and it incurs a debt of gratitude from the person to God. What damns the person is where they have chosen to align their heart.

 

[Gorgias]

I would agree with those who have said "who can say? ". I have a question though about your scenario of the adult Catholic… if they know what the CC teaches about the Church, mortal sin and other faith matters, but do not follow the teachings because they are not convinced, is their salvation in serious jeopardy according to Catholics and the Church?

It’s a touchy question, without a doubt, and one which we can’t give a definitive answer, in a certain sense (after all, only God can judge, right)? Yet, in terms of speaking in the abstract, it would come down to what the person knew – in other words, it depends on catechesis – and how the person approaches the faith. For instance, a person who was not well catechized would be leaving a Church that he doesn’t fully understand. (The question here, of course, would be the level of culpability.)

The question you ask, I think, speaks to a person who is reasonably well catechized, doesn’t it? In that case, there’s a different dynamic in play. A Catholic who knows his faith well, has been taught that (and, putatively, knows that) in the Catholic Church there is the fullness of the truth – that is, he has been taught not only ‘stuff’ (i.e., the tenets of the faith), but also, the grounds for that stuff (i.e., why the Church teaches what she does). He’s been taught that Christ created His Church and set the Apostles at its head, to lead her and teach in His name; he’s been taught that the doctrinal teaching of the Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit; he’s been taught that doctrine develops over time, as the Church understands God’s Revelation more fully and expounds on it in language accessible by each generation. Now… the question is this: what is it that such a person has rejected? What is it that the person remains ‘unconvinced’ about? If it’s simply the ‘stuff’, then that’s not surprising – many Catholics continue to struggle with and learn more about the ‘stuff’ that the Church teaches. However, that’s not a reason to leave the Church. On the other hand, if it’s that he rejects that God is teaching the Truth through the Church, then that’s another matter altogether. In this case, the person’s act of leaving the Church doesn’t only say “I’m working through my understanding of this doctrine” but rather “I don’t believe that the Church is capable of teaching the truth.” That statement – made with one’s feet! – is one that we would say leaves the person (who was in possession of the fullness of the truth but has decided to walk away from it) in jeopardy.

Does that make sense?

In re-reading some posts I guess John Martin might have been touching on this in his post referencing about conscience and walking away.

I haven’t seen these posts. The Church teaches that we all must obey our consciences. However, she also teaches that we are obligated to form our consciences properly. That is to say, when our conscience says “I must do X”, we must say, “Hmm… but the Church teaches that we cannot do X. Why is it that my conscience is telling me to do something contrary to the Church’s teaching? I’ve gotta find out where the discrepancy is … and fix it!” Many take the first step (“I’ve got to follow my conscience!”) without bothering to attempt the second!

Blessings,
G.

 

[Moses613]

If one believes in the Holy Scriptures, how does one reject the Trinity?

How does one then define the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

3 separate beings? (like Mormons do).

To believe that there is more than one God rejects the very nature of God.

There is only one God

If there is only one God how do you impute to Him a “triune nature”? Three is not one and one is not three. The oneness of God has no parts and is not divisible.

 

[MacQ]

If there is only one God how do you impute to Him a “triune nature”? Three is not one and one is not three. The oneness of God has no parts and is not divisible.

Are you a father? Are you also a son? Are you a brother?
If so, there are parts of your nature that manifest themselves differently, but you are still one person.

 

[Moses613]

The doctrine of the Trinity is crystal clear in the Scriptures both Old Testament and the New. Jesus says that “the Father and I are one” and He prays for us to be one “just as You and I are one” and that “all that belongs to the Father is mine.” Jesus names Himself as God many times. The Scriptures really couldn’t be more explicit.

I apologize, but I must correct you. The (“old testament”) Scriptures explicity and clearly indicate God’s Oneness:

Deut 6:4. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

2 Kings 19:15 - And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Etc.