Are you saved if you are nontrinitarian?

[Moses613]

Are you a father? Are you also a son? Are you a brother?
If so, there are parts of your nature that manifest themselves differently, but you are still one person.

Those are different aspects of my being. God also has many different names used in the Bible. Additionally, we describe Him according to His different attributes, Merciful, Compassionate, Mighty. However, these are just different aspects of how we perceive God. They have nothing to do with his intrinsic nature. Just as my son’s perception of me is different than my mother’s, but I am the same.

I suspect Trinitarians have something a bit different in mind.

 

[Logically]

Are you a father? Are you also a son? Are you a brother?
If so, there are parts of your nature that manifest themselves differently, but you are still one person.

Of course you are right that someone can be both “a father and a son.”
But you can not be *your own Father *or your own son.

At Luke 3:22, when Jesus was baptized, The voice of God comes from Heaven saying: “You are my Son… I have approved you.”

John was there as an eyewitness. One person speaking to another. Not one person describing himself in different ways.

Again at Matt. 17:5. God’s voice calls Jesus his Son.

At John 6:44 Jesus talks of: “… the Father who sent me…” Obviously not referring to himself.

And Jesus disciples were clear about this.
To sum up his gospel, at John 20:31, John writes: “These things have been written so you may believe that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God.” (not “God the Son”)

The Bible is very clear about the identity of Jesus and his Father.
There is no mention of a Trinity in the Bible.
As Jesus followers we should follow what the Bible says, not what later clergymen and pagan politicians decided.

 

[MacQ]

Those are different aspects of my being. God also has many different names used in the Bible. Additionally, we describe Him according to His different attributes, Merciful, Compassionate, Mighty. However, these are just different aspects of how we perceive God. They have nothing to do with his intrinsic nature. Just as my son’s perception of me is different than my mother’s, but I am the same.
.

Yes, exactly.
Catholics do not believe there are 3 gods. Only one.
And He is the same, regardless of whether He manifests as spirit to us, or as a man (as we believe He once did).

I suspect Trinitarians have something a bit different in mind.

What is it you suspect?

 

[Moses613]

What is it you suspect?

From Wikipedia:

According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[8] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, “it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds”) and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and “each is God, whole and entire”.[9] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are “from the Father”, “through the Son” and “in the Holy Spirit”.[10]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

I think this is referred to as a mystery because Catholics believe God has to be only one, and also “three,” simultaneously. But this is logically impossible.

 

[Logically]

I apologize, but I must correct you. The (“old testament”) Scriptures explicity and clearly indicate God’s Oneness:

Deut 6:4. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

2 Kings 19:15 - And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Etc.

Exactly so. And Jesus never contradicted these clear Bible statements.
In fact he often quoted them.

The God Jesus taught his followers to believe in and pray to was not a Trinity.
And his followers knew and understood this.

At 1 Cor 11:3 the apostle Paul explained: “…the head of every man is the Christ…The head of Christ is God”

• No mention of equality or being the same god. God was described as being a different being and outranking Christ. (in the *same way *that Christ out ranked Christians.) Simple.
  We would have to resort to some pretty confusing and contradicting philosophy to understand that verse any other way!

So going back to the subject of this post: We might ask: “Was Paul saved? because he didn’t believe in the Trinity.”

 

[MacQ]

As Jesus followers we should follow what the Bible says, not what later clergymen and pagan politicians decided.

‘Pagan politicians’…
Let those of us who try to align our lives to Jesus’ teaching not throw stones at one another.

No Catholic would deny that Jesus was the Son of God.
We choose to believe that Jesus was divine in nature as well. Sorry, we can’t bring ourselves to deny that. Or that He sends His Holy Spirit to us even now.

We accept the notion that God is capable of things we do not fully understand.
Some things are a mystery.
I reckon we’re all doing the best we can.

 

[MacQ]

I think this is referred to as a mystery because Catholics believe God has to be only one, and also “three,” simultaneously. But this is logically impossible.

Quite so…we do believe some things are possible that are (to our limited logic) “logically impossible”. An atheist would argue that a belief in God is logically impossible.
So yes, that is the definition of “mystery”
Just as Faith is belief in things unseen.

In my own personal case, I found that my ability to accept faith and “mystery” coincided with my developing some humility (putting away aspects of pride and arrogance that say I must be the arbiter of what is or is not) that I think I very much needed. Still working on it.

 

[SteveVH]

Of course you are right that someone can be both “a father and a son.”
But you can not be *your own Father *or your own son.

At Luke 3:22, when Jesus was baptized, The voice of God comes from Heaven saying: “You are my Son… I have approved you.”

John was there as an eyewitness. One person speaking to another. Not one person describing himself in different ways.

Again at Matt. 17:5. God’s voice calls Jesus his Son.

At John 6:44 Jesus talks of: “… the Father who sent me…” Obviously not referring to himself.

And Jesus disciples were clear about this.
To sum up his gospel, at John 20:31, John writes: “These things have been written so you may believe that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God.” (not “God the Son”)

The Bible is very clear about the identity of Jesus and his Father.
There is no mention of a Trinity in the Bible.
As Jesus followers we should follow what the Bible says, not what later clergymen and pagan politicians decided.

The problem you have, Logically, is that you do not have apostolic succession and therefore approach the Scriptures with the erroneous preconceived notion that the doctrine of the Trinity does not appear in the Bible. The Catholic church, on the other hand, possessed this revealed truth since the beginning, before a word of the New Testament was ever written and 400 years before we even had what we now call our Bible.

You are also under the mistaken view that everything a Christian should believe is found in the Bible. Now, the doctrine of the Trinity was never laid out explicitly in the Bible. Yes, it can be easily supported by the Bible but that is not where we extract our doctrines. Our Church was founded upon the Apostles themselves. That is where we received the doctrine; not from written texts, but from mouths of those who walked and lived and were taught by Jesus himself. The Bible is a supporting document to the deposit of faith received once from the Apostles. If you really want to know what the first Christians believed in this regard, that information is available through the writings of the early Church fathers. That is, if you really want to know and are intellectually honest enough to read them apart from your preconceived notions.

So we don’t have to prove our position from the pages of the Bible. This doesn’t mean that we can’t, it simply means that we did not glean our doctrines from its pages. Jesus didn’t leave us with a book. He left us with a Church, the “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15), a Church to which he gave unprecedented authority and the protection of the Holy Spirit so that it would never fall into error.

 

[Seraphim73]

I apologize, but I must correct you. The (“old testament”) Scriptures explicity and clearly indicate God’s Oneness:

Deut 6:4. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

2 Kings 19:15 - And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Etc.

God is one. The very first line of the Creed is “I believe in one God.” We agree with you on that.

 

[Seraphim73]

Of course you are right that someone can be both “a father and a son.”
But you can not be *your own Father *or your own son.

At Luke 3:22, when Jesus was baptized, The voice of God comes from Heaven saying: “You are my Son… I have approved you.”

John was there as an eyewitness. One person speaking to another. Not one person describing himself in different ways.

Again at Matt. 17:5. God’s voice calls Jesus his Son.

At John 6:44 Jesus talks of: “… the Father who sent me…” Obviously not referring to himself.

And Jesus disciples were clear about this.
To sum up his gospel, at John 20:31, John writes: “These things have been written so you may believe that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God.” (not “God the Son”)

The Bible is very clear about the identity of Jesus and his Father.
There is no mention of a Trinity in the Bible.
As Jesus followers we should follow what the Bible says, not what later clergymen and pagan politicians decided.

I’m sorry but JW’s don’t have a leg to stand on in this. Jesus is named as God at least 13 times I can think of off the top of my head in just the Gospels. Any group that has to purposefully mistranslate Scripture to fit their beliefs is obviously mistaken. Even in your description here you show a fundamental misunderstanding of God.

 

[Seraphim73]

I think this is referred to as a mystery because Catholics believe God has to be only one, and also “three,” simultaneously. But this is logically impossible.

God’s plurality is perfectly unified and His unity is perfectly plural. In fact logically speaking God has to be three divine persons. It can’t be any other way.

 

[SteveVH]

God’s plurality is perfectly unified and His unity is perfectly plural. In fact logically speaking God has to be three divine persons. It can’t be any other way.

Exactly. One can come to this conclusion through John’s confession that “God is love”. Love cannot exist in a vacuum. If one is to love there must be an object of that love; i.e. the love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father. No one sits on a mountain top and simply “loves” solitarily.

 

[Robyn_p]

If there is only one God how do you impute to Him a “triune nature”? Three is not one and one is not three. The oneness of God has no parts and is not divisible.

You are right that one does not equal three and three does not equal one. However, that’s not what the doctrine of the Trinity states. (even though it may look like that at first glance.) We believe there is one, eternal, infinite, Being - God - who exists eternally as three distinct persons.

Now, that’s a contradiction only if we don’t understand what is meant by the words being, nature, and person. But once we do that, it becomes a little clearer. Basically, nature refers to “what” something, while person refers to “who”. A being is anything that exists. So, for example, if you asked me what I am, I would say I am human, because I have a human nature. OTOH, if you asked me who I am, I would say Robyn. But though there is obviously a distinction, I still am only one being. I’m not two beings. I’m also not divided.

Same thing when it comes to God. We believe the Divine Nature is absolutely one, indivisible, simple. There is only one God. But just like distinguishing between my nature and person didn’t introduce any division inside of me, so it is with God. There is only one divine nature - one divine being - and there are three persons who each posses that same undivided divine nature perfectly and completely.

Now, the hard part comes when we try to comprehend how the three persons can all possess the same divine nature without dividing it. A lot of theologians have pondered that, but ultimately, (and I know this might sound like a cop-out here, but it’s true) it is a mystery. It’s above and beyond every experience we have ever had. BUT, that doesn’t mean it’s therefore contrary to to logic and reason, and here’s why:

The ratio between nature and person for human beings is 1:1, right? Since that’s all we have ever known, it’s natural to conclude that’s the only way it can be. But is it? Nope, because even in nature, we see it’s possible for a single being to have a different ratio and still be one being. A dog is a being, it has a canine nature, but it’s not a person. So now we have a being with a ratio of 1:0. Given that, I don’t see any logical reason why God can’t have a ratio of 1:3. Why couldn’t he be the One Divine Being who exists as Three Divine Persons from all eternity?

Yes it’s true, we can’t comprehend it, and yes we have no experience of anything like that. But that’s exactly the point. God in his very essence should be so far beyond our experience and comprehension. He’s the infinite and Almighty one after all.

 

[Robyn_p]

I apologize, but I must correct you. The (“old testament”) Scriptures explicity and clearly indicate God’s Oneness:

Deut 6:4. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut 5:6 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the LORD the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

2 Kings 19:15 - And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubim, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Etc.

Belief in the Trinity doesn’t contradict these verses at all. In His being and essence God absolutely is one. Trinitarianism in fact depends on belief in God’s oneness.

 

[wittgenstein]

This may help:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
If one is misled by, and truly convicted of, error – but with all sincerity of (limited human) reason but not a spirit of rebellion, one is commended to the Mercy of God.

As a Unitarian, the OP’s question is important to me.
I can understand the trinity ( the three are one) via a metaphor. When I dream, I am an actor (that things happen too), the landscape designer, and the playwright. Each role is separate, in the sense that, for example, if a werewolf jumps out at me in a dream I am startled, evenn tho I wrote the script.
I think that such issues (is God 3 or 1 etc) are interesting and important. But superfluous to being “saved”.
By analogy, an anthropologist and/or archeologist may be interested in Christ’s sandal size, but that has nothing to do with spirituality .
Anyway, I agree! Its about what is in your heart. It is not about some concept.

 

[wittgenstein]

To continue my dream metaphor. Jesus always said that the father was always greater than him as an individual. The me that writes my dream has more authority about what happens in my dream, then I as the one that experiences from an individual perspective.

 

[Potter]

My parents are Oneness Pentecostals. They believe absolutely in God, in Jesus, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. I’ve never quite understood why they and their rivals, traditional trinitiarians, get so utterly worked up about what strikes me as mere semantics. A star in the nightime sky may be revealed as a binary system under a telescope, but from Earth it’s still the one point of light. The difference is focus and perspective. From a distance, God is one, under the scope, there are three parts. Or maybe it’s the other way around – nothing about the Trinity is easy!

 

[Seraphim73]

My parents are Oneness Pentecostals. They believe absolutely in God, in Jesus, and in the power of the Holy Spirit. I’ve never quite understood why they and their rivals, traditional trinitiarians, get so utterly worked up about what strikes me as mere semantics. A star in the nightime sky may be revealed as a binary system under a telescope, but from Earth it’s still the one point of light. The difference is focus and perspective. From a distance, God is one, under the scope, there are three parts. Or maybe it’s the other way around – nothing about the Trinity is easy!

Well it’s certainly not a matter of semantics or perspective. That is Sabellianism and was rejected by the Church as false almost 1700 years ago. If we are going to worship in spirit and truth we have to have a conception of what the truth is. When it comes to our salvation the question of the Trinity is of paramount importance. The central fact of the Christian faith is that God the Logos was incarnated and actually became a human, assuming our human nature and uniting it to the Divine. He became everything we are and perfected human nature so that we through Grace can become everything He is. If the Logos is not God then we have not seen the Father as He says, His suffering becomes completely superfluous and unnecessary and our humanity is not united to God at the right hand of the Father. If the Logos is not God then our entire faith and salvation is completely undermined.

 

[Potter]

Well it’s certainly not a matter of semantics or perspective. That is Sabellianism and was rejected by the Church as false almost 1700 years ago. If we are going to worship in spirit and truth we have to have a conception of what the truth is. When it comes to our salvation the question of the Trinity is of paramount importance. The central fact of the Christian faith is that God the Logos was incarnated and actually became a human, assuming our human nature and uniting it to the Divine. He became everything we are and perfected human nature so that we through Grace can become everything He is. If the Logos is not God then we have not seen the Father as He says, His suffering becomes completely superfluous and unnecessary and our humanity is not united to God at the right hand of the Father. If the Logos is not God then our entire faith and salvation is completely undermined.

Thank you for the clarification. I’m really just beginning as a Christian – my youth was spent in an unorganized Protestant sect, and then I was nonreligious for the better part of a decade. I have a lot of prayerful study ahead of me before I have a proper handle on sound doctrine.

 

[KjetilK]

Well, nontrinitarians might get saved. Only God knows that. But non-trinitarians are just as Christian as Muslims are. Or put another way; they aren’t Christians.