Are you under the CURSE of God?

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Grace to you!
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Mijoy2:
Maybe I speak from my relative immaturity to the Catholic faith (a 1 -2 year revert) but I find the discussions regarding faith vs. works between Catholics and Protestants an exercise in circular reasoning for the most part. A, sort-of, chcken or the egg argument.

If I am not mistaken, I believe Protestants make the claim that Faith in Jesus alone is the way to salvation. But when faced with the hypothetical(s), what of the molesters, murderers, wife beaters, adulterers, so forth and so on, the answer to this is often, “they had a said faith not a true faith”. Implying that because of thier evil ‘works’, they likely didn’t truly believe in and have a strong faith in Jesus.

Well isn’t this what we Catholics also claim? If we have a true faith in Jesus, we will be righteous, or attempt to be and repent when we fail.

As I said, maybe it is me, but it sure seems we are saying much the same thing. We have to dig deep to find a difference that may in fact no exist to find.

If I am on a diet and wish to lose weight, I will claim to be on “a diet” (faith in Jesus). If I am true to my claim I will in fact lose weight. If I really didnt want it bad enough (not enough faith in Jesus), I will fall off the diet and not lose weight (exercise evil works).

If I was successful: was I successful because of my true devotion to my diet (strong faith), or to my good works in maintaining said diet?

If I was unsuccessful: Was I unsuccessful because I didn’t really want it bad enough (lack of faith), or my bad works in maintianing the diet?

Isn’t this a matter of perception??
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Well, nor the Protestants are right, nor the Catholics. Only God is right! He says in His Word through His servant:

“for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” ( Philippians 2:13 )

God doesn’t only give us to will, but also to work.

And these good works are not OUR works, but the works of God. For the Scripture says:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” ( Ephesians 2:8-10 )

Those works are prepared by God BEFOREHAND.

Humans say: God wants some merits in us.
God says that we don’t have any merit in us, so He gives us the merits of Christ through FAITH.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Yes, my friend. Asking this question is like asking: can the sun rise without shining? We are not talking about dead stars, my friend!
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That’s a good analogy. What I wanted to know, is whether this is what YOU were advocating. Apparently not, from your response. That said, I’m still not sure what your message is, or your question.

When you ask “are you under the curse of God” and then you asked “am I under the curse of God” are you asking rhetorically or are you really looking for information?
Imagine you go to a market and you ask for a bottle of juice. And the man asks you: “do you want the bottle with juice in it, or without juice?”… Well, although this last example doesn’t totally fit to our case here, but it shows how much questions can be without sense… And yet, some people want “a bottle of juice + juice”, or “a bottle of juice + a bottle to put the juice in it”…
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What doesn’t make sense to me at this point is you, my friend. Perhaps you are talking above my head, but if you’re asking a question to be answered I don’t know what the question is. If you’re asking a question to start a discussion I don’t know what point you’re trying to make.

Did you really think I was asking you whether faith without works is dead? Clearly the Bible teaches us so. What I was asking, was whether that was what YOU were trying to say. May I take it from your response that the answer to my actual question is, “yes?”

Alan
 
Oh brother. I can’t believe you’re entertaining this guy. The tone of his writing rings in my head like that screechy government money hukster Anderew Leskow.

“Do you know how to be saved!? Are you under the curse of God?! Would you like me to tell you?! No!? Let me tell you anyway!!!”

I just love it when someone finds a Bible, “accepts Jesus,” and then decides to tell those ignorant Catholics about this holy guy in a book they’ve never heard of…
 
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montanaman:
Oh brother. I can’t believe you’re entertaining this guy. The tone of his writing rings in my head like that screechy government money hukster Anderew Leskow.

“Do you know how to be saved!? Are you under the curse of God?! Would you like me to tell you?! No!? Let me tell you anyway!!!”

I just love it when someone finds a Bible, “accepts Jesus,” and then decides to tell those ignorant Catholics about this holy guy in a book they’ve never heard of…
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Good point. I guess I looked at it as a challenge to see if I could get him to say something I could understand or that we could actually discuss.

Alan
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Your question is just like asking God: “Will the righteous man LIVE by faith, or DIE by faith?” The answer, of course, is: “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” ( Romans 1:17 ). This is the living, Christian, and saving faith. But some false brethren sneaked in among the children of God, who didn’t understand what God was teaching His people, and taught another kind of faith that cannot save, a faith without power, a faith of mind, without any change in the heart. To these false brethren James writes: “Can that faith save him?” ( James 2:14 ). Of course not, because that is the kind of faith that Satan have, not the Christian saving faith! “the demons also believe, and shudder.” ( James 2:19 ).
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Here we go again, aren’t we saying the same thing?? Isn’t this precisely the view of the Catholic faith. We have faith in Jesus, we inherently see the Truth, “written on our hearts”, having faith in said Truth we chose to follow Jesus. Our following Jesus isn’t a “work”, it’s a course of action that makes sense. Much like feeding your children isn’t a work, it’s something you desire to do because it is right.

Satan believes but chose not to follow. This fact seems to, even to a greater degree, agree with the Catholic notion of “if you have faith”, you must follow. Where did the notion of “works” being a Catholic means to salvation come from? I don’t see it.

Maybe I am just a confused Catholic, but I really don’t see the difference :confused:
 
Peace be with you!
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AlanFromWichita:
When you ask “are you under the curse of God” and then you asked “am I under the curse of God” are you asking rhetorically or are you really looking for information?

What doesn’t make sense to me at this point is you, my friend. Perhaps you are talking above my head, but if you’re asking a question to be answered I don’t know what the question is. If you’re asking a question to start a discussion I don’t know what point you’re trying to make.
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I don’t see why you want to be the teacher, and others be those who ask questions. I posted this and said let’s ( let’s = let US ) think about this: AM I UNDER THE CURSE OF GOD?

Can’t we think about it and help each other in understanding this fully?
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AlanFromWichita:
Did you really think I was asking you whether faith without works is dead? Clearly the Bible teaches us so. What I was asking, was whether that was what YOU were trying to say. May I take it from your response that the answer to my actual question is, “yes?”
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Dear friend, the Bible doesn’t teach that the Christian faith is dead without human works done in flesh, but the Bible teaches that the faith that demons also have is dead without the obedience of the Christian faith.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
I have to say that this is one of the most confusing threads I have yet read. Is the original poster trying to make a sola fide argument? Is he asking a rhetorical question? Is he asking a question he wants an answer to?

We don’t mind any of the above, but we sure as shooting would like to know what you’re doing…

God Bless you,
Pio Magnus
 
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