Are Your Traditional Catholic Beliefs a Source of Division Among Your Family and Friends?

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I once thought this too, and it used to be much more that way. Lately though, Traditional Catholic Forum apparently translates to: place where neo-cons and liberals can come and bash on traditional Catholics. This is why of late I have preferred to post on Fisheaters and Angelqueen.
The thread is for asking whether a person’s traditional beliefs or practices were a source of division (flak or raised-eyebrows or you-name-it).

The forum is titled “Traditional Catholicism”, proposed to be a “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. It doesn’t say the discussion is restricted to those who consider themselves traditional or even those who consider themselves Catholic.

Catholic Answers is an idea exchange. I like that about it. The truth can stand that. After all, you can’t change the wrong ideas people have about the truth if you won’t communicate with the people who hold the wrong ideas.
 
The thread is for asking whether a person’s traditional beliefs or practices were a source of division (flak or raised-eyebrows or you-name-it).

The forum is titled “Traditional Catholicism”, proposed to be a “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”. It doesn’t say the discussion is restricted to those who consider themselves traditional or even those who consider themselves Catholic.

Catholic Answers is an idea exchange. I like that about it. The truth can stand that. After all, you can’t change the wrong ideas people have about the truth if you won’t communicate with the people who hold the wrong ideas.
It’s fine to exchange ideas, but I detect only a sniping attitude- no true exchange of ideas. Read through the posts- very few people have actually stayed on topic.😦 And the person who started it was attacked right off the bat. It is a very unfriendly forum.
 
Duke – I am not what folks would call a Traditionalist. But I am a Catholic in good standing. Please let me say that as a Catholic I am more than happy that you are being drawn into a closer intimacy with Christ through the Mass in the Extraordinary Form. (Is that the right language to use? If not, please know I am not trying to be rude or mean or anything negative 🙂 )

I think that whenever anyone does something in their Spiritual Path to increase their walk with Christ they generally meet up with several typical responses from others.

The first is what you have already encountered – indifference or a demeaning response. The responses are from people that are unwilling to look at the move you are taking in your spiritual journey. Take heart and continue to drive on because there are lots of others that will encourage you and others that are at a similar or have been at a similar place and will give you great advice on how to continue your journey.

I hope I am at least on the encouragement team – peace.
Thanks for your response. I do feel encouraged when someone takes their time to help me with my faith and you certainly fall into that encouragement team! 👍
 
Perhaps your “delivery” has something to do with it. Are you presenting your affection for the TLM in a joyful, loving way, expressing how you feel when attending?

Or, do you present your attendance at a TLM as being “better than their Mass”?

Much like our Protestant brothers and sisters asking you if you have “been saved”, it’s HOW you share your faith that turns people on or off to it.

TBL
I definitely understand the protestant analogy because I have certainly turned off a few of those preachy types.

The conversation with my folks started with simply questions about the Latin Mass and their thoughts on the whole Vatican II phase. They finally asked me why all the questions and I admitted going to Latin Mass. I never put down the mass they go to, but my mom said something that really bothered me. She said people just want to worship in Catholicism like it was a buffet, picking and choosing what they like. I found it weird because the Mass used to be in Latin and now you have way more choices at the “buffet”

My mom was actually the one to bring it up the topic among my siblings. That’s how they found out. I have actually been pretty quiet about the whole thing except for the occasional question about the Latin Mass and old customs.
 
So why keep bringing it up?
I don’t bring it up to preach or start a fight. I am simply curious about Catholicism in their day and I ask them questions about the Latin Mass and the Catholic culture of the past.
 
I recently admitted to my folks I have been attending the Traditional Latin Mass and they gave each other a weird look. Every time I bring it up, they look bothered, which is weird because that’s the Mass they grew up with. I have a bad feeling that this Mass alone is going to solicit some sort of critical reaction.

I have yet to meet a Catholic who is interested, much less happy, in knowing I have started going to the Latin Mass. My siblings make jokes like, “Well, now you have a good reason for falling asleep: you don’t even know what they are saying!”

I can’t imagine what their reaction will be if and when I start adopting some more traditional Catholic beliefs and customs. Anyone else run into this problem?
Not a whole lot in the real world.

The real opposition to Tradition, I find most often, on this traditional catholicism sub-forum I visit quite often. I’ll have to send you a link sometime :rolleyes: .

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
–I recently admitted to my folks I have been attending the Traditional Latin Mass and they gave each other a weird look.

–they look bothered,

–I have yet to meet a Catholic who is interested, much less happy, in knowing I have started going to the Latin Mass.

–My siblings make jokes
If being a traditional Catholic is defined by attending mass in the EF, I’m not traditional. If traditional means believing and following what the Church teaches, then I am extremely traditional.

I don’t attend the EF becasue it doesn’t work for our family. My autistic son needs the OF because people with autism need to see and hear at the same time in order to understand. Their brain is wired differently, even though they can be very intelligent. My son is in college, but he still gets very anxious when he does not understand or see the actions that go with the words. The priest with his back to the congreation frustrates him. He says it feels like talking on the telephone, which he hates.

My family is Orthodox Jew. My household is the only household in our family that is Catholic, because I converted in my early 20s and am in my 50s now. As Orthodox Jews they do not understand the entire Catholicism thing. If I were to mention that we have more than one form of mass in the Roman Rite and more than one Rite in the Catholic Church and more than one Church with apostolic succession, that would drive my Jewish siblings to drink or think that I’m making my life more complicated than it needs to be.

What I do is – do what I do. I go to my daily mass, pray my breviary, say my rosary, work for my diocese, take care of my family, do my spiritual reading and daily meditation without saying anyting about it. My siblings do the same within their Orthodox Judaism without saying anything about it.

I know all about Orthodox Judaism, but they only know about Catholicism what they see on TV and what the see when they visit me. This year they visited during Easter. I said that I had to go to Church because it was Easter. My brothers know that it’s the highest of holy days for Christians. They were staying at my home, so I casually invited them to the Easter vigil expecting them to respectfully decline.

I was surprised when they agreed to attend. Of course they asked if they could wear their kipa (yamulke) and prayer shawl. An Orthodox Jew never enters a house of prayer without these. Of course I told them that they could. They were as happy as pigs in mud. We went and the priest came up to them after the mass and welcomed them and chatted a little. This made them feel very welcome without feeling that they were being prostelitized.

This is the key. One should never make the other person feel that they are less than you are or that you’re trying to send them a message to become like you. If you follow the rules of courtessy and charity, you should have some questons, as I get from my brothers, but no conflicts.

Some of our priests who work with us have complained that they do not like being around some “traditionalists” because they have a very evangelical attitude. They tend to find fault with everything that is not EF. If the priest makesa mistake, they’re right there after mass offering corrections, rather than accepting that the priest is doing the best he can. I have also heard that some have a holier than thou attitude.

That being said, I have also known and have priest colleagues of mine who know traditional EF Catholics who are very polite, very kind, very involved in the community and the parish and who are very respectful of the OF, because it is the holy sacrifice of the mass as is the EF. These people are very friendly and very easy to be with.

I have seen arrogance in reverse from Catholics who prefer the OF. There can be an attitude that we’re more Catholic than the Pope and we’re more with the Church than traditional Catholics are and so forth.

The point I’m making is that whether your among other Catholics or people of other faiths, if you come across casually, you invite rather than push, ask when you don’t understand them or answer with just enough information when they ask you, you should come off OK. The key is never to come off as holier than thou or condescending or judgemental.

When we judge we not only make enemies, but we also sin against the Holy Spirit, because we have no idea what the Holy Spirit is doing in someone els’es soul.

When we invite and accept a no without being offended or offending, we stand a better chance of being accepted and maybe having our invitation accepted the next time around.

Just remember, the EF is not for everyone. As Pope Benedict says in the Motu Proprio, the OF has a sanctity that cannot be denied. So always make sure that you show the proper respect for the OF, even though we know that there are Catholics who attend both forms of the mass for their own satisfaction, not because it really draws them closer to God. Those kinds of weaknesses are unavoidable, even though they are unfortunate.

Finally, I would add that we always have to be careful not to sound fanatical. I will say again, I work for the diocese runing my own ministry, pray the Office, say my rosary, go to mass, but I never say anything to anyone who doesn’t ask me or unless they’re at my home and I want to leave, then I invite them. Sometimes I’ll even joke about it (not in a disrespectful way). Humour does a lot to reduce tension.

I always tell my Jewish sibs that the only regret I have about becoming Catholic is that I forgot that someday I was going to get older and the kneeling, sitting and standing routine is killing me because I’m 50 lbs heavier. They just laugh, rather than wonder about the kneeling, standing and sitting, which is not common in Orthodox Judaism.

I hope this helps.

JR 🙂
 
It’s really weird to bring it up around other teenagers. I attend Latin Mass fairly often, and it’s something which is definitely “odd” in the eyes of youth who are growing more and more attached to the touchy-feely style of “praise and worship” mass.
 
Hi! I think this thread is for Traditional Catholics who prefer the TLM and all that goes with it. We would like to discuss these things amongst ourselves. You are welcome to read our posts, but we are not here to argue endlessly with people who don’t share our views. 🙂
CAF has a Private Message capability for those who wish to discuss things amongst themselves.

Back to the OP. We all have the right to worship as we choose. However, when we choose methods or styles of worship that are different than the mainstream worship methodology, we should expect to be “noticed” as it were.

If you attend Mass in a parish where Communion is generally in the hand and standing, you may choose to receive kneeling and on the tongue. But you WILL draw attention to yourelf, good or bad, right or wrong, fair or unfair.

If you wear a head covering, that is certainly up to you, and may be a very good thing. But you WILL draw attention to yourself…

If your family goes to the NO Mass at St. Bob’s, and your Mom says at Sunday dinner “We didn’t see you at St. Bob’s today”, and your response is “Well I went to Latin Mass at St. Betty’s” you WILL draw attention to yourself. Your family is likely to infer that your attendence at the TLM at St. Betty’s is some sort of statement that the Mass at St Bob’s is lacking in some way.

Sorry, but that’s real life. If you like Mass in Latin, Communion on the tongue on your knees, Gregorian Chant, etc…that’s all fine and good. But in a world of Mass in the Vernacular, CITH, and Glory and Praise hymnals, you WILL stand out and garner attention.

If all your friends drive 2000 or newer SUVs, and you like to drive a '62 VW Beetle, that is great. But you WILL get noticed in the parking lot 😉
 
I’m curious too as all Catholic “beliefs” must be identical. Dogma and Doctrine cannot be different for so-called traditionists and so-called liberals. We are members of the same Church with the same beliefs. . . . ] All the Church teachings are summarised in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is applicable to ALL Catholics. If you tell me there are beliefs not in the CCC then please tell us what they are and what your source is!!
The teaching of the Catholic Church is One. Whoever wishes to be saved must hold the Catholic faith, whole and entire. But the Catholic faith as currently defined does not have an authoritative teaching on every single issue. A Catholic is free to believe in limbo or not, even free to believe that all infants who do not receive water baptism are consigned to hell (that would be Augustine’s view). A Catholic is free to “dare to hope,” along with von Balthasar, that God, in His mercy, will find a way to save many of those not within the visible confines of the Church, or one can instead believe that the salvation of those individuals will be a very rare exception to the rule. AFAIK the decision still holds firm that both the Jesuits and the Dominicans are free to hold their distinctive views on the interplay of free will and divine foreknowledge, and neither is allowed to brand the other as heretical - i.e., two large groups of Catholics that hold incompatible beliefs! That should be enough to demonstrate the possibility of a category classed as “traditional” Catholic beliefs that need not be held by all.
C’mon! I thought this thread was a place for people with traditional Catholic beliefs/practices to discuss flak they are getting from people who don’t have those beliefs/practices. . . . ] I think this thread is for Traditional Catholics who prefer the TLM and all that goes with it. We would like to discuss these things amongst ourselves. You are welcome to read our posts, but we are not here to argue endlessly with people who don’t share our views. 🙂
The forum is not a place to carp and vent traditional persecution complexes, but a place where traditional Catholicism can be discussed - those who are traditional themselves can share experiences and knowledge, and those who are curious can ask questions.
If being a traditional Catholic is defined by attending mass in the EF, I’m not traditional. If traditional means believing and following what the Church teaches, then I am extremely traditional.

. . . ] Finally, I would add that we always have to be careful not to sound fanatical. I will say again, I work for the diocese runing my own ministry, pray the Office, say my rosary, go to mass, but I never say anything to anyone who doesn’t ask me or unless they’re at my home and I want to leave, then I invite them. Sometimes I’ll even joke about it (not in a disrespectful way). Humour does a lot to reduce tension.
And yet if “traditional Catholic” simply meant “Catholic,” it would be a wasted effort to create sub-forum for it. Not every traditional Catholic is going to line up with all the others on every issue, but they probably will all share, say 75% or more of a general traditional core that gives substance to the term. If you’re not one of those people, fine, but don’t rain on their parade, either, by trying to empty the term of any meaning.

As for not coming across as fanatical, I wholly agree with the main sentiment (and with your other comments about crafting your “presentation” to be well-received), but I would also add the caveat that sometimes you are bound to sound fanatical because the truth is so alien to your audience that they won’t see it as anything else. The trick that many traditionalists fail to learn is distinguishing between the everyday circumstance, in which a little tact goes a long way, and the extraordinary, when all the tact in the world must be employed, but you’ll still fail. I’ve encountered plenty of individuals who feel validated in their lack of people skills simply because they’re “right,” but I think the number of said individuals I’ve personally experienced means that we shouldn’t discount the idea that more reasonable traditionalists are, indeed, going to elicit bad responses even when they voice themselves respectfully - too many people have already poisoned the well.
Sorry, but that’s real life. If you like Mass in Latin, Communion on the tongue on your knees, Gregorian Chant, etc…that’s all fine and good. But in a world of Mass in the Vernacular, CITH, and Glory and Praise hymnals, you WILL stand out and garner attention.
I think that’s a pretty realistic diagnostic of the situation. But given that it’s the case, why can’t posters allow the OP to ask about others’ experiences of this reality without feeling the need to interject irrelevant debates about the “possibility” of traditional belief, the merits of worship forms, etc. For those of us who have been on this sub-forum from the beginning, there has definitely been a noticeable increase in the amount of posters who spend most of their time either criticizing traditionalism or telling traditionalists to chill out instead of actually letting people discuss traditional Catholicism. The forum was created, I think, in order to facilitate threads that discuss traditional belief and practice without having to do the same old dance of justifying them.
 
Hi! I think this thread is for Traditional Catholics who prefer the TLM and all that goes with it. We would like to discuss these things amongst ourselves. You are welcome to read our posts, but we are not here to argue endlessly with people who don’t share our views. 🙂
Actually this thread is to discuss Traditional Catholicism and share experiences and beliefs etc.
 
It’s fine to exchange ideas, but I detect only a sniping attitude- no true exchange of ideas. Read through the posts- very few people have actually stayed on topic.😦 And the person who started it was attacked right off the bat. It is a very unfriendly forum.
I don’t think the first reply was meant as a snipe, although I can understand how it might have been taken that way.

You are right: The OP did not ask for advice about how to deal with the situation. The OP asked “does anyone else run into this?” Nevertheless, we’ve probably all had friends come to us with a problem, after which we made the mistake of thinking they would be happy if we’d offer to fix it for them! 😃

BTW, the “sniping” has gone both ways:
Well that sounds great in theory, but we all know in practice that most self-proclaimed “liberal Catholics” aren’t in-line with all the Ancient Dogmas of the Faith. Considering liberalism is a sin and has been condemned, I don’t know how you can even expect their “beliefs” to be identical with the Catholic Faith.
What a stupid remark!! All the Church teachings are summarised in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is applicable to ALL Catholics. If you tell me there are beliefs not in the CCC then please tell us what they are and what your source is!!
The tone can get strident, but I don’t know it is meant to be personally attacking, on either side.

Catholics of every stripe can get a real fire in their belly about defending the faith, even if they can’t agree on what “the faith” is. That fire is not a bad thing, but part of the gift of faith. But it is a gift, like literal fire, which needs control.

Important topics get people’s dander up. I still think this is a good forum. I’ve learned a lot. I hope those who have a fire in their bellies about preserving the true treasures that existed in the Church prior to Vatican II won’t decide the hassle isn’t worth it. These are topics that need discussion and clarification.
 
There are other traditions and beliefs within the Church that may be just as old, and certainly just as worthy, as those that seem to be the lightning rods for debate here.

Traditional style church buildings, stained glass windows, ornamental woodwork inside, real pipe organs, votive candles, etc. are every bit as traditional as a communion rail, but rarely get discussed here.

At a neighboring parish, several years ago there was a huge debate whether the statues of Mary and Joseph were properly placed. At that time, Joseph was on the left (compass north) of the altar, while Mary was on the right (compass south). A subsequent priest reversed their positions.

Many people wouldn’t care one whit, but to me this was/is something of a traditional issue.

:twocents:

TBL
 
There are other traditions and beliefs within the Church that may be just as old, and certainly just as worthy, as those that seem to be the lightning rods for debate here.

Traditional style church buildings, stained glass windows, ornamental woodwork inside, real pipe organs, votive candles, etc. are every bit as traditional as a communion rail, but rarely get discussed here.

At a neighboring parish, several years ago there was a huge debate whether the statues of Mary and Joseph were properly placed. At that time, Joseph was on the left (compass north) of the altar, while Mary was on the right (compass south). A subsequent priest reversed their positions.

Many people wouldn’t care one whit, but to me this was/is something of a traditional issue.

:twocents:

TBL
Yes, all of those things are traditional. We ought to discuss them more. I miss the days when we could come to this forum to learn about traditional practices and beliefs instead of defending traditional practice on hot-button issues.
 
Getting back to the original question, since I’m a convert and my family of origin is clueless, it’s not an issue with them. Many of my coworkers are Catholic, mostly cafeteria-style, who go to Mass at the most liberal parish in town. Because I go to the traditional parish, they know that I am not into the progressive scene like they are. I approach them with a “you do your thing and I’ll do mine” attitude, as if we were talking about them preferring golf and me preferring tennis, and they are fine with my traditional ways. I think the thing that puzzles them the most is my adherence to the Church’s teachings on chastity since I’m divorced and I “must have ‘needs.’” Yes, I have “needs” alright – I need to keep my soul clean and not risk trading my hopes of heaven for a few hours of getting my “jollies!” 🙂
 
I was born and baptized in 1951 in a profoundly Catholic area, where Catholicism is openly celebrated and celebrated, if you catch my meaning. I went to Catholic schools from primer (now kindergarten) through 12th grade. I was an altar boy before and after Vatican II. I sang in a children’s choir (yes, kids can learn plainsong :D), in high school, and in a cathedral choir for 25 years. It distresses me to be labeled a traditionalist since in my mind’s eye, I haven’t changed from being, well, …me.

I know for a fact that some of my beliefs really annoy certain people - particularly as it applies to sacred music. They fail to see my joy in being Catholic - for me it is not just religious, it is cultural as well. Someone on the forums was asking about May Crownings, yesterday and I saw myself in khakis and the girls in starched white blouses and pleated navy blue skirts, all of us singing “O Mary, we crown thee with blossoms today”.

I see myself on public transportation going to high school. When the bus or streetcar passes in front of a church, not only me but a whole bunch of folks, black and white, make the sign of the cross because we are passing in front of Our Lord in the Eucharist. No one is embarrassed or shocked as might be the case today.

amazon.com/Joy-Yat-Catholicism-Earl-Higgins/dp/1589804104/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209841450&sr=8-1

So wonderful was it to grow up Catholic, that someone wrote a book about it. I have that book and laughed and cried when I read it - for all that we still have and all that we have lost. And,yes, Palmas and I know where we went to high school:D.

It is so very hard to put into words at times. So much got thrown out after Vatican II. And, I will repeat again that which has become my theme - not all of us in 1969 embraced all of the changes which were to follow. My wife and I have done everything in our power to inculcate into our two sons what it means to be a Catholic as we understood it.
 
CAF has a Private Message capability for those who wish to discuss things amongst themselves.

Back to the OP. We all have the right to worship as we choose. However, when we choose methods or styles of worship that are different than the mainstream worship methodology, we should expect to be “noticed” as it were.

If you attend Mass in a parish where Communion is generally in the hand and standing, you may choose to receive kneeling and on the tongue. But you WILL draw attention to yourelf, good or bad, right or wrong, fair or unfair.

If you wear a head covering, that is certainly up to you, and may be a very good thing. But you WILL draw attention to yourself…

If your family goes to the NO Mass at St. Bob’s, and your Mom says at Sunday dinner “We didn’t see you at St. Bob’s today”, and your response is “Well I went to Latin Mass at St. Betty’s” you WILL draw attention to yourself. Your family is likely to infer that your attendence at the TLM at St. Betty’s is some sort of statement that the Mass at St Bob’s is lacking in some way.

Sorry, but that’s real life. If you like Mass in Latin, Communion on the tongue on your knees, Gregorian Chant, etc…that’s all fine and good. But in a world of Mass in the Vernacular, CITH, and Glory and Praise hymnals, you WILL stand out and garner attention.

If all your friends drive 2000 or newer SUVs, and you like to drive a '62 VW Beetle, that is great. But you WILL get noticed in the parking lot 😉
So are your traditional Catholic beliefs a source of division among your family and friends?
 
So are your traditional Catholic beliefs a source of division among your family and friends?
If you count your friends here on the forums, yes, it may well be. Family? Yes. My younger brother left HMC for evangelical protestantism. He avoids me like the plague and for good reason…I was not asleep in religion class for those 13 years. I can cite chapter and verse to refute him.

Sis, didn’t want the family to fall apart after our parents passed on. (Middle kids do that). So I keep my mouth shut but I wonder on what planet he was on when the two of us were in the same Catholic schools.
 
…But given that it’s the case, why can’t posters allow the OP to ask about others’ experiences of this reality without feeling the need to interject irrelevant debates about the “possibility” of traditional belief, the merits of worship forms, etc. For those of us who have been on this sub-forum from the beginning, there has definitely been a noticeable increase in the amount of posters who spend most of their time either criticizing traditionalism or telling traditionalists to chill out instead of actually letting people discuss traditional Catholicism. The forum was created, I think, in order to facilitate threads that discuss traditional belief and practice without having to do the same old dance of justifying them.


[SIGN]Thank you![/SIGN]

DD
 
There has been a very negative reaction to the OP in this thread. The OP asked a question of like minded individuals, trying to gain their perspective, to see if others in this same situation are experiencing the same things. All the OP has received are snarky comments meant to show the OP how he may done something wrong.

Maybe he didn’t bring it up right? Give me a break.

Mantua, you must be careful in this sub-forum. Liberals lurk about and come in at their pleasure and bash traditional minded Catholics. There are other places to discuss such things. Send me a pm.
 
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