Area parish decides altar-serving is for the boys

[GregoryPalamas]

How about all those who are so adamant that girl severs discourage vocations explain the drastic drop in vocations for the decades prior to girl servers. And then explain how whatever caused that decline disappeared when girls became servers, leaving the girl servers responsible for the decline in the following 10 or 15 years.

It seems that no matter how many times people put this into a theological category you and some others switch it to a sociological one. I suppose that is because for a Secular society the society is God. Altar work is reserved for males because that is what Jesus did. There is no other answer.

CDL

 

[ishii]

Jennifer, I’m the one who keeps asserting that the decline in vocations is unrelated to girl altar servers. Read the statistics-- priestly vocations dropped dramatically from the 1940s and 1950s through 1990-- during this period, there were no altar girls. The downward trend in priestly vocations has continued since altar girls were allowed (1992, I believe), but it certainly existed way, way before they were allowed. There were clearly other reasons for the decline in priests. If you read up on this you will see there are many reasons for fewer priests, which in fact correlate to the timing.

note to dwc: actually, the decline in vocations is a function of many factors, such as smaller families, the secularization of our society, but especially the feminization of our society and church, and altar girls are a part of that very unfortunate feminization. No one is saying that the presence of altar girls alone is responsible for a lack of priestly vocations, just as no one is saying that the mere presence of altar boys will result in an increase in vocations. But it might help. Also, the liberal parish in Seattle where I grew up had altar girls as early as the mid-80’s, if not earlier.

According to the article “Priestly Vocations in America” by Jeff Zeigler, which appeared in the Catholic World Report, the total number of American diocesan and religious seminarians in college and theology seminary programs decreased by nearly 47% from 1978 to 2003. He goes on to attribute this decline to “materialism, unchastity, and small family sizes”. Now, it is modern feminism that encouraged women to pursue sexual liberation, and to practice artificial birth control. Zeigler goes on to cite a column by Archbishop Curtiss of Omaha, who blamed the collapse of vocations on “certain vocational directors, vocational teams and evaluation boards that turn away candidates who do not support the possibiliy of ordaining women, or who defend the church’s teaching on artificial birth control.”
Do you see where I am going with this? It is feminism, my friend, which has contributed greatly to the decline in vocations, and altar girls are just one more way that feminists are trying to change the Catholic Church to conform to modern liberal feminism. It is damaging to the Church. Wake up.

Ishii.

 

[Dale_M]

How about all those who are so adamant that girl severs discourage vocations explain the drastic drop in vocations for the decades prior to girl servers…

I don’t think anyone is arguing that girl servers are responsible for the decline in vocations. I think what has been argued is that using only boys will encourage vocations. The switch to using girl servers may have worsened the vocations crisis (although I am not aware of a study backing this), but it didn’t cause the problem.

 

[Brendan]

How about all those who are so adamant that girl severs discourage vocations explain the drastic drop in vocations for the decades prior to girl servers. And then explain how whatever caused that decline disappeared when girls became servers, leaving the girl servers responsible for the decline in the following 10 or 15 years.

How about explaining how the 1% of parishes in my Archdiocese that have an all male altar boy cadre are responsible for 20% of the students in the seminary?

Mine is a parish of 800 families, and has 6 seminarians right now, and has seen 4 men from our parish ordained in the last 6 years.

Does God call the men in our parish more that men in other parishes, if so why?

Or does God call men in other parishes equally, but our just answer the call at a greater rate, if so, why?

 

[dwc]

Do you see where I am going with this? It is feminism, my friend, which has contributed greatly to the decline in vocations, and altar girls are just one more way that feminists are trying to change the Catholic Church to conform to modern liberal feminism. It is damaging to the Church. Wake up.

You still haven’t explained how altar girls discourage boys from seeking the priesthood. You’ve stated your conclusion that feminism has contributed greatly to the decline in vocations and stated that altar girls are also a result of feminism – so what? That tells me nothing about how eliminating altar girls will advance vocations, or how having girl altar servers affected vocations. You gave support for why you believe feminism in general affected vocations, but really jumped right over the altar girl connection.

No one is saying that the presence of altar girls alone is responsible for a lack of priestly vocations, just as no one is saying that the mere presence of altar boys will result in an increase in vocations. But it might help

I appreciate your candor. So – on the** chance** that eliminating altar girls*** might*** help turn the tide and start increasing vocations, you are willing to alienate faithful Catholic girls – girls who will soon be told by our society that their faith demeans and devalues women – and make no mistake, that is the message out there.

How about explaining how the 1% of parishes in my Archdiocese that have an all male altar boy cadre are responsible for 20% of the students in the seminary?

Knowing absolutely nothing about your archdiocese or your parish, I can only assume that your parish is similar to my own diocese and parish: both are very traditional and orthodox and have much higher than the national rates of seminarians. I have read that the more traditional the diocese, the higher the number of seminarians is produced. By the way, all the parishes in my diocese have altar girls.

The switch to using girl servers may have worsened the vocations crisis (although I am not aware of a study backing this), but it didn’t cause the problem.

I’m also not aware of any study suggesting that girl altar servers worsened the vocations crisis.

 

[Keikiolu]

You can bet on it. My family would be gone as soon as this goofy idea was announced – and my husband would be the one leading the exit. The premise is just ridiculous — having girl altar servers discourages boys from considering the priesthood. …

…And girl altar servers deter boys from doing it because they have an “inherent disdain for anything girls do.” Well, I want to see some proof of this. …

…

When girls CAN assume a particular “role”, boys are less likely to be interested in taking on those roles.

I suggest you do some simple experiments on your own to confirm this, as it is quite an obvious empirical fact.

I’ll also leave it to you to come up with what those experiments should look like, as it is not the priest BUT THE PARISHONERS who would have to “prove him wrong”, and not the other way around.

If the parishoners are wrong, then more boys will become interested in the priesthood, and there will be no shortage of “people” for the altar.

If the priest is wrong, then no more boys will become interested in the priesthood, and they may need to allow some girls to perform alter services.

The goal is to create more interest in the priesthood, not fill alter positions.

Methinks thou dost PC too much…!

Are you rooting for the priesthood, or not?

 

[dwc]

When girls CAN assume a particular “role”, boys are less likely to be interested in taking on those roles.

I suggest you do some simple experiments on your own to confirm this, as it is quite an obvious empirical fact.

You make a powerful statement … care to back that up – with anything? Like, … maybe, an empirical fact? I have children – junior high, girls and boys – and I see nothing in their behavior or history or that of their friends to support your statement. Your statement alone is worthless in today’s world, with today’s boys.

Methinks thou dost PC too much…!

If you had any idea how many times I’ve been accused of being too traditional and old-fashioned you’d understand why I’m laughing.

I’m not PC – but I am very logical and rational and I expect there to be a reason behind decisions that stand to alienate some of my children from their church.

Are you rooting for the priesthood, or not?

Oh, I’m definitely rooting for the priesthood, but in ways that might actually make a difference and might actually increase vocations, instead of just chase girls out of the church.

 

[ishii]

I appreciate your candor. So – on the** chance** that eliminating altar girls*** might*** help turn the tide and start increasing vocations, you are willing to alienate faithful Catholic girls – girls who will soon be told by our society that their faith demeans and devalues women – and make no mistake, that is the message out there.

Here is the real question: Is a boy who has a calling to the priesthood more or less likely to respond to that calling if he has a positive experience as an altar boy? I would like you to answer that question. Ishii.

 

[ishii]

I appreciate your candor. So – on the** chance** that eliminating altar girls*** might*** help turn the tide and start increasing vocations, you are willing to alienate faithful Catholic girls – girls who will soon be told by our society that their faith demeans and devalues women – and make no mistake, that is the message out there.

If I may borrow from your tactics, what evidence do you have that eliminating altar girls would alienate faithful Catholic girls? Were faithful Catholic girls all alienated before becoming altar servers?

 

[Brendan]

I just thought I’d repost this for the repeat. Alter girls are permitted if there are not enough boys available. For some reason when the Vatican gives such a direction to the USA, it’s taken as a MANDATE to HAVE alter girls.

Exactly.

Even though +John Paul II ALLOWED girls to serve at the altar, he never allowed girls to serve in the Vatican altar server cadre.

Neither has +Benedict. The altar boys at the Vatican remain just that… boys.

But I implimenting such a “goofy idea” as the Pope himself uses would have driven DWC from St. Peter’s as well.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

How about explaining how the 1% of parishes in my Archdiocese that have an all male altar boy cadre are responsible for 20% of the students in the seminary?

Mine is a parish of 800 families, and has 6 seminarians right now, and has seen 4 men from our parish ordained in the last 6 years.

Does God call the men in our parish more that men in other parishes, if so why?

Or does God call men in other parishes equally, but our just answer the call at a greater rate, if so, why?

I see what you mean. The Vicarate newletter for this month has a list of Seminarians by Vicarate/Parish (I now know which parish you go to ). The Vicarate I am in has 0 seminarians which does not surprise me.

 

[fix]

I’m not PC – but I am very logical and rational and I expect there to be a reason behind decisions that stand to alienate some of my children from their church.

Why would one feel alienated from the Church because a priest is acting withing his prerogative and in the best interest of all?

The link has a quote where the term profiling is used? Does our faith change the we we lead our lives or has our secular mindset change the way we view our faith?

 

[leonie]

Instead of looking at this parish as a negative–no altar serving for girls, why not look at it the other way: a new ministry for girls?

I’m sure there are a lot of girls who wouldn’t like to serve but would be attracted to this ministry.

and, I think boys and girls benefit from segregation in their clubs until the upper teen years.

 

[mikew262]

So, in short, you don’t have an answer? You are also making an assertion and refuse to back it up, I was asking YOU, not the other people…it was a sincere question. I guess I’ll try to research it myself, if I get the time.

Jennifer

This was an opinion, I have not researched it. However, I say again that its up to the people asserting the position that girl altar servers retard priestly vocations to provide the proof. Otherwise, it just looks like grumbling and reason searching for priest vocations being down.

 

[Keikiolu]

You make a powerful statement … care to back that up – with anything? Like, … maybe, an empirical fact? I have children – junior high, girls and boys – and I see nothing in their behavior or history or that of their friends to support your statement. Your statement alone is worthless in today’s world, with today’s boys.

“Coodies”.

The concept of “coodies” is a perenial example, and template, for the fact that girls “taint” boy-stuff, if they are allowed to do so.

“Today’s world” is just like any other world which contains human boys and human girls. Human nature has not changed, regardless of the “enlightenment” of the worldly.

As I said in my posting, the burden is on YOU to prove that “coodies” has ceased to exist as a factor in boy-mentality.

If you had any idea how many times I’ve been accused of being too traditional and old-fashioned you’d understand why I’m laughing.

No doubt by people (probably children or child-ish people) who are trying to manipulate you into giving them what they want.

I’m sure Timothy Leary was called an “old fuddy-duddy” by SOMEBODY…!!

I’m not PC – but I am very logical and rational and I expect there to be a reason behind decisions that stand to alienate some of my children from their church.

And that (the emphasized) is YOUR problem.

If your children are Catholic, then they will accept the wisdom of the Church, as entoned by your Priest, just as we must all do.

The only way that this policy change could “alienate” your children is if they (you) are putting their (your) “feelings” before those of the good of the Church.

You may not like the policy,… but that is your test.

Oh, I’m definitely rooting for the priesthood, but in ways that might actually make a difference and might actually increase vocations, instead of just chase girls out of the church.

How do you know the new policy WOULDN’T make a difference?

You’ve already decided that the only effect would be “to chase girls out of the church”. How do you come to that conclusion?

If an experiment is needed to test the theory, then just be happy that the experiment isn’t in your parish, as you apparently are not up to bearing that “cross”.

Best to you.

 

[catsrus]

Only altar boys at my 11:00 Sunday solemn Mass!
Along with the Consecration in Latin, organ music and choir, incense and bells and no flapping of hands.
And I love it this way.

 

[Thekla]

“Coodies”.
The concept of “coodies” is a perenial example, and template, for the fact that girls “taint” boy-stuff, if they are allowed to do so.

“Today’s world” is just like any other world which contains human boys and human girls. Human nature has not changed, regardless of the “enlightenment” of the worldly.

As I said in my posting, the burden is on YOU to prove that “coodies” has ceased to exist as a factor in boy-mentality.

Ahhh. The “cooties” defense. Maybe we should stop raising boys who think that girls and women are a taint upon the many man/boy entitlements. The notion that women are tainted has a long history to it and the Church hasn’t helped.

Personally, none of my kids are going to be altar servers.

 

[leonie]

Actually, it’s not the “cootie” factor that turns boys off. IIt’s more that girls are just so much more mature at this age. They come in and take over.A priest told me that he’s observed that the girls are more competent and the boys are intimidated or edged out.

I’ve noticed it myself with my children. My daughters could run the house, but my sons can’t find a pair of socks without help.

 

[Caesar]

I wish to make my point without statistics, without getting into any sociological discussion.

The Sacrifice of the Altar is for males. Whether it be as an Altar Server or as the Priest himself, the work at the Altar is reserved for men. I am not saying this to be derogatory, I am not pig-headed or anything like that, but this is just something that is given only to men.

Serving at the Altar must be seen whenever possible as a means of introducing a young man to the priesthood by way of the primary work of the priest- the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I understand that in many cases, where there may be shortages of servers, this purpose cannot be aimed for.

 

[leonie]

I wish to make my point without statistics, without getting into any sociological discussion.

The Sacrifice of the Altar is for males. Whether it be as an Altar Server or as the Priest himself, the work at the Altar is reserved for men. I am not saying this to be derogatory, I am not pig-headed or anything like that, but this is just something that is given only to men.

Serving at the Altar must be seen whenever possible as a means of introducing a young man to the priesthood by way of the primary work of the priest- the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I understand that in many cases, where there may be shortages of servers, this purpose cannot be aimed for.

If there is a shortage of servers, it is most likely a liberal parish IMO.