Area parish decides altar-serving is for the boys

[Spence06]

I have never said pastoral needs should be neglected. My point is the reasons any priest uses to exclude female servers are his and I give him the benefit of the doubt that he is acting in good faith. There seems to be some notion if a priest excludes female servers he is being imprudent.

Rome has said priests do not have to accept female servers. Your assertion that they need reasons, that you deem acceptable, is not part of the process.

My reasons, were pastoral needs.

You said they don’t need reasons, which implied they can neglect pastoral needs while going solely on their preferences. I realize, you may in no way mean that, but that is what I took away from the discussion.

I have a sacraments professor and he made an excellent point a few weeks ago. He explained that being a pastor requires a lot of humility. It requires such because as a priest, you are there to serve and many newly ordained priests think they are the greatest thing since Saint Peter with all their knowledge behind them. Pastoral concern and leadership, requires priests to be humble enough, even though they may be right(as in they do not have to have female servers), to submit not to their own likes or dislikes that affect the parish or at the sake of their own desires their decisions neglects the pastoral needs of a parish, whatever they may be.

 

[zuzu]

FYI,

The Orthodox Churches still have deaconesses, but I don’t think you understand what they really are.

“Deaconess” … It does NOT involve an Ordination, just a consecration. They are not clergy, they don’t assist the priest at Mass, they don’t read the Gospel, they don’t preach and they don’t even Baptize.

Brendan,
thanks for pointing that out.
Sounds a bit like altar servers who are not clergy, do not ASSIST the priest, but SERVE, they don’t preach, read the Gospel, or baptize either (except in emergency - as we are all able to do)
Sorry, i couldn’t resist that.
Again, for the record - i am NOT in favour of the ordination of women, but Our Lord welcomed the service of women, even though the high priests condemned him for it

Suze

 

[fix]

My reasons, were pastoral needs.

You said they don’t need reasons, which implied they can neglect pastoral needs while going solely on their preferences.

Does a good priest ever neglect pastoral concerns? The point is he decides what is pastorally best.

I have a sacraments professor and he made an excellent point a few weeks ago. He explained that being a pastor requires a lot of humility. It requires such because as a priest, you are there to serve and many newly ordained priests think they are the greatest thing since Saint Peter with all their knowledge behind them. Pastoral concern and leadership, requires priests to be humble enough, even though they may be right(as in they do not have to have female servers), to submit not to their own likes or dislikes that affect the parish or at the sake of their own desires their decisions neglects the pastoral needs of a parish, whatever they may be.

That is a nice general statement, but can be manipulated to justify much nonsense.

This is getting pedantic. The priest can exclude female servers. You want to read his mind ok.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,
thanks for pointing that out.
Sounds a bit like altar servers who are not clergy, do not ASSIST the priest, but SERVE, they don’t preach, read the Gospel, or baptize either (except in emergency - as we are all able to do)
Sorry, i couldn’t resist that.
Again, for the record - i am NOT in favour of the ordination of women, but Our Lord welcomed the service of women, even though the high priests condemned him for it

Suze

Nope, Deaconess (or any other women) are not allowed to serve at the altar in the Orthodox churces. They do bring food to the poor, visit the sick, make altar linens, or pray in front of the icons for the sake of the Church.

Oh wait… that sounds exactly like what this priest is proposing for the girls in his parish.

Maybe we SHOULD follow the examples of the Early Church in this too

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist either )

 

[Spence06]

Does a good priest ever neglect pastoral concerns? The point is he decides what is pastorally best.

That is what I’ve been trying to stress.

This is getting pedantic. The priest can exclude female servers. You want to read his mind ok.

I don’t know what you mean, read his mind? I want a better practical priest that will meet the people where they are and not demand that they meet him where he is(within reason).

We agree clearly on the heart of the issue, but we have gotten lost somewhere along the lines.

 

[Brendan]

.

. Pastoral concern and leadership, requires priests to be humble enough, even though they may be right(as in they do not have to have female servers), to submit not to their own likes or dislikes that affect the parish or at the sake of their own desires their decisions neglects the pastoral needs of a parish, whatever they may be.

So maybe these priests should follow the leadership and pastoral example of the Holy Father (both the late John Paul II and +Benedict).

In other words, not allow altar girls at his own parish, but willing accept them when he says Mass at another priest’s parish.

After all, following the example of Pope John Paul’s humilty is a worthy thing.

 

[Spence06]

But as pointed out, the Pope has celebrated mass with female servers. They also still do everything in latin, which the current Pope refers to as an extraordinary norm of the Church not the ordinary. Not anything against Latin, but Papal Mass in Rome are unique.

Does anyone have information online about who serves Papal masses? I was under the impression that it is the seminarians in Rome.

 

[zuzu]

Nope, Deaconess (or any other women) are not allowed to serve at the altar in the Orthodox churces. They do bring food to the poor, visit the sick, make altar linens, or pray in front of the icons for the sake of the Church.

Oh wait… that sounds exactly like what this priest is proposing for the girls in his parish.

Maybe we SHOULD follow the examples of the Early Church in this too

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist either )

Touche!!

Here in the UK we have a different attitude to female servers, and what they should or should not be wearing, and i am certain that if as you so possitively assert, cassocks should NEVER be worn by women, our priests, bishops, and cardinals would have made it known formally.
To my knowledge, no such communication has been forthcoming, in this country at least.

We must sound like loony liberals to you guys over the water, but please be assured - we are not.
We are proud of our Catholic heritage, which here in the North West especially, has given us great martyrs and saints - but i digress…

I have attended parishes where the server serves just as devoutly in normal clothes. Is this also to be condemned?

St.Joan D’Arc openly wore male dress. Her refusal to recant (her visions), and wear a womans dress, is what led ultimately to her martyrdom -
even though to our shame, it was at the hands of the English

 

[Brendan]

But as pointed out, the Pope has celebrated mass with female servers.

And, as I agreed, the Pope does use female altar servers when he is celebrating Masses outside of his own diocese. And perhaps this priests should follow that example.

They also still do everything in latin, which the current Pope refers to as an extraordinary norm of the Church not the ordinary.

He refered to the Tridentine Mass as extraordinary, NOT the current Pauline Mass. That is the ordinary Mass. And the Pope usually says Mass in Italian.

Not anything against Latin, but Papal Mass in Rome are unique.

I’m not just talking about public Papal Masses, but even the Masses said in his personal chapel

Does anyone have information online about who serves Papal masses? I was under the impression that it is the seminarians in Rome.

I read an article about that recently. No it is not seminarians, but Italian boys from schools local to the Vatican. ( the Vatican state maintains 2 primary schools and 1 secondary\High school )

During the summer, when the boys are not a school, Maltese boys come into Rome to server there. For some reason, that is a tradition for the Maltese to provide servers during the summer.

 

[Sr_Sally]

St. Pio would never listen to the confessions of women that wore pants.

I’ve heard that he had guidelines posted at the church where he served about appropriate dress for coming to Mass. But how in the world did he know what someone coming to confession was wearing?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I’ve heard that he had guidelines posted at the church where he served about appropriate dress for coming to Mass. But how in the world did he know what someone coming to confession was wearing?

Maybe St. Pio expected others to respect his restrictions and firmly held beliefs.

In my home we do not serve supper to family members that are not properly dressed for meals. LOL No Shirt No Food. We do not allow the children or adults to walk around in bathing suits unless they are at the pool or beach. Respect for the sensibilities of others is expected.

 

[cyberwolf001]

In the words of Jesus… “Amen, Amen.”

By the Grace of God and the inercession of the blessed mother may he be the first of many to do this.

 

[Paed]

Funny people deny the fact that Males only is a goofy Idea and the fact that girls discourage the priesthood is bogus too.

There is only one diocese in the USA that does not allow female altar servers…HAS ANYONE SEEN HOW FULL THEIR SEMINARY IS. Lincoln, NE has one of the highest seminarian to Catholic ratio in the country. I am certain it is just a coincidence.

People move to Lincoln for its Catholicity. I read an article awhile back that Lincoln was actually a magnet for Orthodoxy. Imagine that people are moving there because of Catholicism. Its not becuase of the weather I assure you of that…I wonder…does anyone move to a Liberal diocese strictly becuase it is a liberal diocese? …I didn’t think so either.

 

[cyberwolf001]

Funny people deny the fact that Males only is a goofy Idea and the fact that girls discourage the priesthood is bogus too.

There is only one diocese in the USA that does not allow female altar servers…HAS ANYONE SEEN HOW FULL THEIR SEMINARY IS. Lincoln, NE has one of the highest seminarian to Catholic ratio in the country. I am certain it is just a coincidence.

People move to Lincoln for its Catholicity. I read an article awhile back that Lincoln was actually a magnet for Orthodoxy. Imagine that people are moving there because of Catholicism. Its not becuase of the weather I assure you of that…I wonder…does anyone move to a Liberal diocese strictly becuase it is a liberal diocese? …I didn’t think so either.

Are you being saracastic or not? Sounds like your taking both sides of the issue…

 

[seremina]

Seramina,
‘Taking umbridge’ is a rather old fashioned and typically understated way us Brits have of taking offence. I suppose it is like ‘politely having a grievance’.

Re. your other point, on what i said about the decline of vocations, -
i was merely reflecting on some of the comments i have been reading (and hearing) that Altar Boys = Future Priests, but Female Servers = Less Boys, therefore Less Boys = Fewer Priests.
It is a point of view, but not one which i think holds up too well.
My own point being that (IMHO) the decline in vocations would have happened regardless of whether or not girls/women were serving at the Altar.
I cannot comment on the way things are in the USA (or anywhere else for that matter), but seminaries in the UK and Ireland have been attracting fewer and fewer candidates for some time now, and i suspect this was happening well before the introduction of female servers!
This decline in vocations could merely be ‘cyclical’, and will no doubt pick up again in the future - let’s hope so.
cheers
Suze

Oh, okay. Thank you for the explanation. I don’t understand how you took offense, though.

 

[seremina]

I’ve heard that he had guidelines posted at the church where he served about appropriate dress for coming to Mass. But how in the world did he know what someone coming to confession was wearing?

Good question. Considering he was a Stigmatist and capable of locutions and extraordinary knowledge, I’d say he was capable of knowing if a panted woman was in the confessional. Of course, that is conjecture on my part, but it seems to make sense. Perhaps further research on St. Pio will help you come to a conclusion?

 

[fullofzeal]

So here’s my take, for what it’s worth… As the first girl altar server in my parish as a child, I felt much more connected to the service, and it helped to ground me during a very difficult time in my life (mother’s illness). I understand that some may be concerned about the potential for negative impact re: less men entering the seminary. So I pose this question: what if it increases the number of young girls considering the habit? I think that would be a great thing, since there are decidedly fewer nuns these days than there were in my childhood.
I will also mention, that a distinction was made during my years of service: girls were not allowed to touch the water and wine. We were allowed to bear the Crucifix in procession, or carry the Scriptures. So in that, there were restrictions to our duties.

Also, may I say, that my family learned how many “good Catholics” could easily turn very nasty. On more than one occassion, my mother (an otherwise very strong woman) was reduced to tears after being told that we were all going to Hell for my service at the altar. Great Christians, eh? Just thought I would throw that out there…

I think that any interest from kids in the Church should be encouraged. We are living in a very scary world, and the stronger thier attachment to the Church and her lessons, the better off they will be!

I personally find it hard to beleive that there would not be a measurable increase in priestly vocations with an all male alter server practice and for female religious if nun’s started wearing their habits again. Along with vocation retreats for kids and occasional encouragement to parents from the pulpit.
Not excluding, of course, Adoration, once a month confession and weekly whole school mass (for those in Cath schools).

peace

 

[cyberwolf001]

So here’s my take, for what it’s worth… As the first girl altar server in my parish as a child, I felt much more connected to the service, and it helped to ground me during a very difficult time in my life (mother’s illness). I understand that some may be concerned about the potential for negative impact re: less men entering the seminary. So I pose this question: what if it increases the number of young girls considering the habit? I think that would be a great thing, since there are decidedly fewer nuns these days than there were in my childhood.

Well last I checked Nuns do not do the things Alter girls do. I’m sure someone else here can answer. Even a begineer like me knows it was ment to be a ‘doorway to the priesthood.’ Note that the Holy Vatican maintains a ban on Female Alter Boys.

That said I’m sure they could find a service for the girls to do that would help them consider the Habit. I am about to get from the P.C. Brigade here…

Helping to prepare food for the poor, working to distribute donuts an drink for after Mass? (We have this done in a room off the main sanctuary).

Distribute Bullitens and programs. Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Also, may I say, that my family learned how many “good Catholics” could easily turn very nasty. On more than one occassion, my mother (an otherwise very strong woman) was reduced to tears after being told that we were all going to Hell for my service at the altar. Great Christians, eh? Just thought I would throw that out there…

I do hope your trying to imply that everyone who disagrees with the concept of Alter Girls and opposes it is in the same boat as those folks…

 

[KathleenElsie]

Well last I checked Nuns do not do the things Alter girls do. I’m sure someone else here can answer. Even a begineer like me knows it was ment to be a ‘doorway to the priesthood.’ Note that the Holy Vatican maintains a ban on Female Alter Boys.

That said I’m sure they could find a service for the girls to do that would help them consider the Habit. I am about to get from the P.C. Brigade here…

Helping to prepare food for the poor, working to distribute donuts an drink for after Mass? (We have this done in a room off the main sanctuary).

Distribute Bullitens and programs. Just some ideas off the top of my head.

I do hope your trying to imply that everyone who disagrees with the concept of Alter Girls and opposes it is in the same boat as those folks…

:tiphat:

 

[zuzu]

Oh, okay. Thank you for the explanation. I don’t understand how you took offense, though.

Dear Seramina,
I’m not offended
Taking umbridge doesn’t mean getting offended in the strictest sense of the word.
I perhaps need to expand on my answer a little more.
It’s like - taking issue with a something etc …
I think i over emphasised the ‘taking mild offence’
It’s all silly, so let’s forget it.

zuzu