Aren't protestants following tradition too?

[Nicea325]

JonNC:

And neither is universal jurisdiction (which is also not in the Tradition of the early Church, it seems). Is the pope the Bishop of Rome, and the western patriarch? Absolutely yes.
Fix the schism, Tomster, and Rome’s claim of authority has far more weight.

Blessings Jon. Unfortunately my friend, I would disagree and state there is a lot more support for universal jurisdiction then opposition against it. As I have stated, plenty words by ECF’s clearly stating their position on the Bishop of Rome. I do not believe they had to specifically emphasis “universal jurisdiction” to prove their point. I simply canno understand how so much support is discarded or merely rejected as false or as being poorly intepretated by Catholics.

Again, plenty of historical cases where Eastern bishops having Rome settle the issue at hand. Again, if Rome had no universal jurisdiction, why would any Eastern patriarch feel compelled to travel hundreds of miles to let another bishop resolve it? More important, where are the protests from Rome stating she has never had any such weight or jurisdiction to conduct such matters? What about opposition from the Eastern ECF’s?

 

[ireadtoomuch]

I am sorry I didn’t see this post earlier, Tom.

You are correct that we differ from Lutherans in those areas. While this is a problem for unity, it is not a problem for the authority of Scripture. While disagreements about those issues are important, the unique authority which we both confess the Scriptures to hold is greater than our disunity in a few key points. Not to mention our unity in matters of Christ, justification, the Trinity, et al. Sola scriptura does not make the claim that everyone is going to reach the same conclusions on everything. That has never happened in Christian history.

Quite frankly, you have the same problem with Sacred Tradition as well. Both you and the Orthodox hold to the authority of Tradition as a separate source of revelatory information. Yet your disagreements are just as prevalent as disagreements between Protestants. If those disagreements pose a problem for the authority and sufficiency of Scripture amongst Protestants, then the authority and sufficiency of Tradition is also undercut.

Hope this isn’t ‘out of line’ to have my first post as a reply to someone on page 8 of a thread, please forgive.

Gaelic, aren’t the Scriptures the ultimate authority in a ‘protestant’ world-view? If so, how is it possible for them ( scriptures ) to have authority, the ability to bind one’s conscience in a matter of faith, in such a way on something like baptism differently on you than someone else and it not be a problem for unity?

If we have a supreme authority, let’s call him Bill, and he has proclaimed some truth…should that truth be true outside of your belief in it or not? If Peter writes through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, “Baptism now saves you” ( and other verses used by baby baptizers ) sounds like over and against taking Scripture at face value and the history of the church on this matter ( To bring this back to the topic at hand ), it sounds like a psuedo-authority of Baptist tradition is binding your conscience and exercising authority over you. I’m reminded of my time years back in baptist and non-denom churches that both performed baby dedications.

Again, apologies for jumping in the middle of this, but I have been lurking here for a little bit and registered to respond to this comment. Not to attack Gaelic, but to seek answers to the question I posed for myself and understand better the Catholic apologist view on such matters.

 

[JonNC]

Private judgment is probably your last hurdle, Jon. You’re getting there.

Some weeks ago I had a wonderful conversation with an Orthodox priest. In our discusion the subject of re-union came up. His face lit up as he related to me how very close the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are as far as full re-union is concerned. As an Orthodox priest he is privy to a lot more inside information than I, as a mere layman, have. He stated that if all goes well we are looking at two to three years for full communion. I just hope he wasn’t overly optimistic.

Afterwards concluding our discussion, we both took the time to pray together. I’m doing my best Jon.

I will join with all sincerity my prayers to yours, and I will stand by my oft-said words, that if full communion comes, I will enter RCIA, seeing no reason any longer to be divided from the unified historic Church.

Jon

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

GB,

Try taking a look at it this way.

Suppose that every single Bible on the face of planet Earth disappeared. Gone! What would happen to Protestantism? Seriously.

Suppose that every single Bible on the face of planet Earth disappeared. Gone! What would happen to the Catholic Church? Seriously.

I know and believe that the Catholic Church would continue through history simply because the Catholic Church is Christ’s Mystical Body on earth. The Catholic Church is literally the prolongation of the Incarnation. Christ is our Head. We are His Body. Read St. Paul, 1 Corinthians if you don’t believe me. If every Bible disappeared from the face of planet Earth, we (Catholics) would be infallibly informed by Christ our Head through His Holy Spirit and the Magisterium of the Church (Matthew 16).

Sola Scriptura? Don’t think so!

I can’t debate or discuss an assertion I know you believe that your church is His.

In regards to our Orthodox brothers and sisters, we are close, very close to full communion.

Honestly? Well, okay. I mean once the papacy, filioque, radically different ecclesiology, purgatory, immaculate conception, original sin, created vs. uncreated grace, the atonement and the canon is sorted out you’re close to full communion.

 

[Brandall]

GB,

Try taking a look at it this way.

Suppose that every single Bible on the face of planet Earth disappeared. Gone! What would happen to Protestantism? Seriously.

Suppose that every single Bible on the face of planet Earth disappeared. Gone! What would happen to the Catholic Church? Seriously.

Does that happen a lot where you live? All of the bibles disappearing and is it just limited to bibles.

It’s kind of a silly hypothetical that has no basis in reality. Regardless, I do believe that the churches you call protestant would still be bringing the word. There is probably some savant that has all the scriptures memorized. It wouldn’t stay gone for long.

If it really did happen, I would start packing my spiritual bags. In the meantime, you and your neighbors should lock your doors and windows at night.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Does that happen a lot where you live? All of the bibles disappearing and is it just limited to bibles.

It’s kind of a silly hypothetical that has no basis in reality. Regardless, I do believe that the churches you call protestant would still be bringing the word.

If it really did happen, I would start packing my spiritual bags. In the meantime, you and your neighbors should lock your doors and windows at night.

Tad bit uncalled for. Maybe a little more charity in the discussion?

 

[MartinJordan]

I will join with all sincerity my prayers to yours, and I will stand by my oft-said words, that if full communion comes, I will enter RCIA, seeing no reason any longer to be divided from the unified historic Church.

Jon

Hi. Jon C Forum Master sir.

Can I ask you in all seriousness, are you saying that if the Orthodox and the Catholic Church get into Full Communion, that this is the only thing holding you off from becoming full fledge Catholic?

Also would it be your own personal move or is the LCMS in it’s entirety also waiting for possible Orthodox/Catholic communion?

Thanks in advance.

Peace be with you and Happy Easter.

MJ

 

[JonNC]

Hi. Jon C Forum Master sir.

Can I ask you in all seriousness, are you saying that if the Orthodox and the Catholic Church get into Full Communion, that this is the only thing holding you off from becoming full fledge Catholic?

Also would it be your own personal move or is the LCMS in it’s entirety also waiting for possible Orthodox/Catholic communion?

Thanks in advance.

Peace be with you and Happy Easter.

MJ

Well, there are the doctrinal issues that would be resolved, not just
The union.
I am speaking for me, not the LCMS.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Well, there are the doctrinal issues that would be resolved, not just
The union.
I am speaking for me, not the LCMS.

Jon

Eastern Catholicism is in full communion with Rome. I do not see it being much longer before the Eastern Orthodox also come into communion with Rome and I believe this Pope is our best hope for that.

 

[MariaG]

I will join with all sincerity my prayers to yours, and I will stand by my oft-said words, that if full communion comes, I will enter RCIA, seeing no reason any longer to be divided from the unified historic Church.

Jon

:clapping:

I know this mean seem odd, but your comment gives me hope. Frankly, I have little hope when it comes to a reunion. Mostly from talks on these boards.

But for whatever reason, I feel hopeful reading your comments.

Thanks. You have renewed my desire to pray for reunion.

 

[Tomster]

Does that happen a lot where you live? All of the bibles disappearing and is it just limited to bibles.

It’s kind of a silly hypothetical that has no basis in reality. Regardless, I do believe that the churches you call protestant would still be bringing the word. There is probably some savant that has all the scriptures memorized. It wouldn’t stay gone for long.

If it really did happen, I would start packing my spiritual bags. In the meantime, you and your neighbors should lock your doors and windows at night.

At first glance, Brandall, the hypothetical situation that I gave may be silly. The reason why I said what I said was to spur further discussion.

There was a time in Church history when a similar situation existed. It was roughly the first three hundred years the Church existed. Now mind you, I am not saying all of the Bibles just disappeared during this time frame. What I am saying is that during these first three hundred years the New Testament did not exist as we know it today.

Now, if the New Testament did not exist as we know it today, back then, where does Sola Scriptura fit in with how the first Christians determined what was orthodox belief and what wasn’t? The term sola scriptura did not exist back then,

 

[Tomster]

I can’t debate or discuss an assertion I know you believe that your church is His.

Honestly? Well, okay. I mean once the papacy, filioque, radically different ecclesiology, purgatory, immaculate conception, original sin, created vs. uncreated grace, the atonement and the canon is sorted out you’re close to full communion.

We are closer than you think GB.

 

[manualman]

Most mainline Protestants do not outright reject to tradition. It is more that they believe that it should not be used to espouse doctrine that is not specifically written in the Bible. Thus the Bible becomes the one, final, standard against which all doctrines are measured.

Small quibble here. If the above is true, then it is a “doctrine” of protestant christianity, no? Can you show me in the Bible where this doctrine is specifically written in the bible?

Thanks.

If you can’t, then it means that this doctrine is based on protestant tradition, not Scripture. Good luck…

 

[aidanbradypop]

Small quibble here. If the above is true, then it is a “doctrine” of protestant christianity, no? Can you show me in the Bible where this doctrine is specifically written in the bible?

Thanks.

If you can’t, then it means that this doctrine is based on protestant tradition, not Scripture. Good luck…

I do not understand that either. Why give something the Sole authority in your life and proclaim to only live by what it teaches even though it does not teach to only live by what it teaches. Do they skip over the verses that talk about not everything is written down but also by word of mouth? Do they simply overlook that verse?

It is odd that even the great Catholic Bishops who brought the manuscripts together to form the Holy Book did not believe that Scripture should have the sole authority in one’s life.

 

[steido01]

Also would it be your own personal move or is the LCMS in it’s entirety also waiting for possible Orthodox/Catholic communion?

JonNC:

I am speaking for me, not the LCMS.

…although Jon is not alone in his sentiments. Some (many, even?) well-catechized individuals in Confessional Lutheran bodies would similarly, and necessarily, reexamine their protest should a real reunion between East and West be made. Some might even go so far as to consider the Reformation “accomplished,” provided the reunion was made by a truly ecumenical council, since such a council would necessarily have to address Papal authority and infallibility, etc. What a glad day it would be! This side of the Reformation has been “waiting for Mantua” for nearly 500 years - none of us wants continued division within His church.

I can’t speak for the entirety of the LCMS, either. But the Synod, in general, is eagerly watching the discussions between the CC and the Lutheran Church - Canada (which shares full pulpit-altar fellowship with the LCMS). Those discussions would be a good indicator of what we can expect from future dialogues. Pray that the Holy Spirit guides the discussions to a fruitful conclusion!

 

[aidanbradypop]

…although Jon is not alone in his sentiments. Some (many, even?) well-catechized individuals in Confessional Lutheran bodies would similarly, and necessarily, reexamine their protest should a real reunion between East and West be made. Some might even go so far as to consider the Reformation “accomplished,” provided the reunion was made by a truly ecumenical council, since such a council would necessarily have to address Papal authority and infallibility, etc. What a glad day it would be! This side of the Reformation has been “waiting for Mantua” for nearly 500 years - none of us wants continued division within His church.

I can’t speak for the entirety of the LCMS, either. But the Synod, in general, is eagerly watching the discussions between the CC and the Lutheran Church - Canada (which shares full pulpit-altar fellowship with the LCMS). Those discussions would be a good indicator of what we can expect from future dialogues. Pray that the Holy Spirit guides the discussions to a fruitful conclusion!

I really do not see how reunion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is keeping you from coming into communion with Rome. I may be missing something

 

[Tomster]

…although Jon is not alone in his sentiments. Some (many, even?) well-catechized individuals in Confessional Lutheran bodies would similarly, and necessarily, reexamine their protest should a real reunion between East and West be made. Some might even go so far as to consider the Reformation “accomplished,” provided the reunion was made by a truly ecumenical council, since such a council would necessarily have to address Papal authority and infallibility, etc. What a glad day it would be! This side of the Reformation has been “waiting for Mantua” for nearly 500 years - none of us wants continued division within His church.

I can’t speak for the entirety of the LCMS, either. But the Synod, in general, is eagerly watching the discussions between the CC and the Lutheran Church - Canada (which shares full pulpit-altar fellowship with the LCMS). Those discussions would be a good indicator of what we can expect from future dialogues. Pray that the Holy Spirit guides the discussions to a fruitful conclusion!

Well, steido, the unity which we all hope and pray for cannot be accomplished in the manner in which you suggest.

For an ecumenical council to be truly ecumenical it would have to be convened by the Holy See. Papal co-operation must be of the fullest consent to make a council ecumenical and its decrees have no binding authority until confirmed by the Holy See. There is no appeal from the Pope to an ecumenical council and if, say for instance, the Pope dies during the course of a council the council is suspended until his successor reopens it. The decrees of such a council are infallible which might pose a problem for some parts of world-wide Protestantism. In others words the decrees promulgated might not square with some aspects of Protestant theology.

In regards to papal authority and infallibility, those matters have already been signed off on in previous councils. So, if a council is the avenue you are looking for in regards to Church unity, you must understand that ground rules have already been established.

 

[Daedalus761138]

I have heard some Roman Catholic writers assent to “sola scriptura”, at least to some extent. The concept is also not without patristic support in the early church.

 

[Nicea325]

I have heard some Roman Catholic writers assent to “sola scriptura”, at least to some extent. The concept is also not without patristic support in the early church.

I do not think so. Not ONE early church father ever mentions it, let alone supports it, advocates it or claims it is Apostolic in nature. Sola Scriptura is a novelty…period!

 

[Tomster]

I have heard some Roman Catholic writers assent to “sola scriptura”, at least to some extent. The concept is also not without patristic support in the early church.

Sola Scriptura really is a novelty, Daedalus

“But beyond these [Scriptural] sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers kept. Upon this Church is founded, and he who should fall away from it would not be a Christian, and should no longer be so called.”

St. Athanasius, “Ad Serapion” 1:28 (360 A.D.)