Aren't protestants following tradition too?

[Tomster]

But they haven’t been approved by the EO patriarchates, hence the division.
Jon

Maybe we should ask them why they haven’t approved them? Again, the dialog continues. (Greatfully I might add!)

By the way, why haven’t the Lutherans approved them? You guys have given your approval to some of our Councils? Again, the dialog continues.

 

[JonNC]

Within Catholicism? Those doctrines have been solved, infallibly I might add. Ecumenically speaking, all we have to do is present them to our Orthodox brothers and sisters in a manner in which they will understand it. The dialog continues.

That is a great answer! Why? It lacks the triumphalism one sometimes hears from Catholics (and frankly, Lutherans and others as well). And I think it is the answer in terms of dialogue between our communions as well. Not compromise, as that leads to a false unity. But instead depending on the Holy Spirit to guide our words in a way that we understand each other, with the hope of coming to convergence.

Jon

 

[Tomster]

That is a great answer! Why? It lacks the triumphalism one sometimes hears from Catholics (and frankly, Lutherans and others as well). And I think it is the answer in terms of dialogue between our communions as well. Not compromise, as that leads to a false unity. But instead depending on the Holy Spirit to guide our words in a way that we understand each other, with the hope of coming to convergence.

Jon

No disrespect Jon, but I would not say convergence. I would say, " with the hope of coming to full and complete unity". Unity, that is Our Lord’s will.

 

[JonNC]

No disrespect Jon, but I would not say convergence. I would say, " with the hope of coming to full and complete unity". Unity, that is Our Lord’s will.

I will take and accept your better description.

Jon

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Hi Tomster,
Everyone deals with their own POV, ISTM, to some extent, with prayerful consideration. I do, you do, we all do.

How have those doctrines been resolved regarding unity with Orthodoxy? The doctrines I mentioned are clear differences between the EO and CC. My point is they would have to be resolved between you for unity. If you are saying they have been resolved, perhaps you could tell me how?

Jon

You’re a far more patient man than I, Jon. I’m not sure how you do it

 

[JonNC]

You’re a far more patient man than I, Jon. I’m not sure how you do it

I thank you for the compliment, but in all sincerity, I have found Tomster’s dialogue here to be frank, yet charitable and engaging.

Jon

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Careful Jon. Your POV may be getting in the way of true discernment here.

Including your POV that the Roman church is the one and only church.

Doubting the authority of the Church has led many to leave her. Remember Jon, the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Not the Bible, not Jon, not Tomster, but the Church.

Conspicuously absent from that oft cited passage is the term “Roman Magisterium” being equated with “church.”

 

[Tomster]

Hi Tomster,
Everyone deals with their own POV, ISTM, to some extent, with prayerful consideration. I do, you do, we all do.

How have those doctrines been resolved regarding unity with Orthodoxy? The doctrines I mentioned are clear differences between the EO and CC. My point is they would have to be resolved between you for unity. If you are saying they have been resolved, perhaps you could tell me how?

Jon

I agree, Jon, that we all deal with our own POV with prayerful consideration. This is especially true for me when the Church proposes catechetical instruction for the flock. I do my best to keep up with everything the Church teaches. Considering our 2,000 year history there is a lot to learn. And in my advancing years I am still learning.

The Church strongly encourages all of us to pay attention to what she proposes, to talk about it, to pray about it. There have been times when I have had serious questions regarding what was coming down the pike, so to speak, form the Church’s magisterium. Living through the aftermath of Vatican II was especially challenging. And I lived through all of it. (I am showing my age right now. ) However, through it all, I have alwayd tried to remember that the Tomster is not the final arbiter of what the Church teaches. I may have grumbled at certain things not understanding fully what the Church was trying to tell me. But, through all of it, eventually, I deferred to Holy Mother Church, the pillar and ground of truth.

Respectfully, Jon, this is a point of departure between the two of us. While the Church gives us a lot of freedom to talk, question and discuss the teachings of the Church, there comes a point when the Church says “case closed”. And she every right to do that.

I am reminded of a Jesuit priest, his name escapes me right now, it could have been St. Ignatius himself I am not sure, who once said:

“If what I perceive to black and the Church says to be white, then it is white. If what I perceive to be white the Church says is black, then it is black.” The take away on this is that the mind of the Church is the literally the mind of Christ, the Head of His Mystical Body. I am but one small cell in that Mystical Body.

Tomster

God Bless you Jon!

 

[benjohnson]

“If what I perceive to black and the Church says to be white, then it is white. If what I perceive to be white the Church says is black, then it is black.”

I’m happy you found such strength in your Church - it’s a good thing for the world that you are more than substantially correct.

I can almost agree with you - but I’m stuck at the 99.99% level. In my heart, I do see that there’s enough human involvement in the Church to error now and then, and instead place my 100% hope in Christ.

May the church live up to your good expectations, so that even us doubters will cease to care about a hypothetical error.

 

[pablope]

Including your POV that the Roman church is the one and only church.

Conspicuously absent from that oft cited passage is the term “Roman Magisterium” being equated with “church.”

What is your issue with the Magisterium, GB?

You do have a sort of magisterium, you just do not call it a Magisterium…it is either the magisterium of the pastor or of the individual, is it not?

You do not see any value in a Magisterium?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

What is your issue with the Magisterium, GB?

You do have a sort of magisterium, you just do not call it a Magisterium…it is either the magisterium of the pastor or of the individual, is it not?

You do not see any value in a Magisterium?

Sure, I can see some value to it. That doesn’t mean I equate such a concept with the church everytime the word church appears in Scripture.

 

[pablope]

Sure, I can see some value to it.

That doesn’t mean I equate such a concept with the church everytime the word church appears in Scripture.

What do you mean? Can you explain further?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

What do you mean? Can you explain further?

Sure. What I meannis, there is a certain presupposition that is used whenever the word church shows up in the text. That presupposition, for a Catholic, tends to read Magisterium into it. So that passages like 1 Tim 3:15 actually read, “the magisterium, the pillar and ground of truth,” or, “on this rock I will build my Magisterium.”

 

[Tomster]

Including your POV that the Roman church is the one and only church.

Conspicuously absent from that oft cited passage is the term “Roman Magisterium” being equated with “church.”

That’s right G.B. The term “Roman Magisterium” is nowhere to be found in that particular Scriptural passage. However, neither is the word “Bible”.

The outline of the visible structure of the Church is given to us elsewhere in the Bible both in the Gospels and in the Epistles. St. Paul gives us a graphic and detailed look into this subject.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

That’s right G.B. The term “Roman Magisterium” is nowhere to be found in that particular Scriptural passage. However, neither is the word “Bible”.

Not looking for actual appearance of the word, Tom. Rather, the concept of magisterium being equivalent to the word “church” in Scripture

But the word book does show up plenty of times.

The outline of the visible structure of the Church is given to us elsewhere in the Bible both in the Gospels and in the Epistles. St. Paul gives us a graphic and detailed look into this subject.

Indeed…and none of them refer to the office of the papacy.

 

[Tomster]

I’m happy you found such strength in your Church - it’s a good thing for the world that you are more than substantially correct.

I can almost agree with you - but I’m stuck at the 99.99% level. In my heart, I do see that there’s enough human involvement in the Church to error now and then, and instead place my 100% hope in Christ.

May the church live up to your good expectations, so that even us doubters will cease to care about a hypothetical error.

Ben,

It’s been a pleasure. Both of us have to keep in mind a very important fact. The human element of the Catholic Church has made serious mistakes in the past. However, these mistakes had nothing to do with matters of faith and morals. Time does not permit me to list the human mistakes that have been made. We must also remember that the Church is both human and Divine. While we travel on this earth, the Church can be likened to a hospital for sinners. I am sure even Pope Francis would agree with this.

 

[Tomster]

Not looking for actual appearance of the word, Tom. Rather, the concept of magisterium being equivalent to the word “church” in Scripture

But the word book does show up plenty of times.

Indeed…and none of them refer to the office of the papacy.

Say a prayer, G.B., then read John 21:15-17 and Luke 22:31-32. And do check out St. Paul’s Epistles and see how he structures the local Churches he founded.

In regards to the verse quoted earlier, many non-Catholic denominations regard the Bible as the final arbiter. And, as that passage clearly shows, that is not the case.

 

[pablope]

Sure. What I meannis, there is a certain presupposition that is used whenever the word church shows up in the text. That presupposition, for a Catholic, tends to read Magisterium into it. So that passages like 1 Tim 3:15 actually read, “the magisterium, the pillar and ground of truth,” or, “on this rock I will build my Magisterium.”

Okay…how do you think the truth, the teaching of the Church…will be delivered correctly, if not through a magisterium?

Your pastor, any protestant pastor…did they just become pastors reading the Bible? Or did they have to go through some kind of training?

 

[Tomster]

Okay…how do you think the truth, the teaching of the Church…will be delivered correctly, if not through a magisterium?

Your pastor, any protestant pastor…did they just become pastors reading the Bible? Or did they have to go through some kind of training?

That is one thing I never could understand. Take the scenario of a Protestant pastor expounding on the Scriptures on Sunday morning and then telling the congregation to search the Scriptures. If one of the congregants happens to interpret the passages differently from the pastor, who decides, authoritatively, who is right and who is not?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Okay…how do you think the truth, the teaching of the Church…will be delivered correctly, if not through a magisterium?

Your pastor, any protestant pastor…did they just become pastors reading the Bible? Or did they have to go through some kind of training?

That’s not what I mean, pablope. I am referring to whether I conceptually interject “my pastor and the elders” or “magisterium” into the word “church” when I read Scripture.