Aren't there 13 Non-Negotiables, not just 5?

[fpt]

I think the answer to your question is the Bible, which is a Catholic “document”. Prostitution is a violation of the 10 Commandments and all violations in the Old Testament were capital offenses.

Sorry, but the catholicism is not, per se, the Old Testament. The moral order of the morality and the legal order of the State law are not the same before the Christ , and after the Christ.

With The Christ, with the objective and realistic philosophy of law, with the catholic theology, with the catholic doctrine of the natural moral order of human beings, with the social doctrine of the Catholic Church, with the catholic praxis, I can almost state that:

The theory of the tolerance of the prostitution by the penal law of State should be the rule. It is a logic thought of catholicism.** Yes, Catholicism is not in favor of the criminalization of the act of prostitution, per se, whatever the level of the punishment**.

The sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house), per se, are immoral, but that they should not be banned, prohibited and punished by the penal laws of State. The client and the prostitute should not be annoyed by the penal laws of the State (my acception of the definition of the prostitution).

The problems of the role of the penal law about the sex and the corporeity (issues), in the USA, are coming from the protestantism, from the puritanism, from the mormonism, from the evangelic movements, from the christian fundamentalists (the born agains), from quiverfull movements, from the theoritical providentialism, the neo-puritanism…etc.

My analysis:

My thought that is trying of respecting and of following, as possible as, in the details and with all the subtleties, the true and real logic of the catholic doctrine on the natural moral order of human beings and the true and real logic of the catholic social doctrine, can proclaim:

That the proxenetism is morally wrong and that it should be punished by the penal law of state. The proxenet (the procurer) should be punished by the penal laws of State. The sexual immigration for permitting the prostitution and the slave traffic for the prostitution should be banned and punished: the supplier, the buyer and the owner of sexual slaves should be punished;

That the prostitution under the legal age of the majority (between a person of 18 year and more the client and a prostitute under 18 year old) is immoral and should be punished by the penal law of the state. Only the client of 18 year and more should be punished the penal laws of State, not the prostitute under the age of 18 year old;

That promotion of the prostitution should be banned by the penal laws of the State;

That the prostitution on the public place should be punished by the penal law of State;

That the physical violence on the prostitute is immoral and that it should be punished by the penal laws of the State, but the acception of the physical violence does not have to be full of radical feminism, full of sexism from male (the machism) and has to be in function of this very special situation where the rules of game are not the same that in the real world: the level of the acception of physical violence should be stricter than in the other situations (see a special case law of the violence on prostitutes); the judicial debate about the means of proofs.

 

[fpt]

QUESTIONS:

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:

The penal law prohibits and punishes the adultery of husband or the adultery of wife? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the pre marital sex? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and banned any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place ? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place??? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the french kiss between lovers (between female and male) in public??? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the bikini on the beach, in the private swimming pool, in the public swimming pool??? YES NO

The penal law prohibits and punishes the miniskirt and the trousers of women??? YES NO

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. AT EACH QUESTION, MY CATHOLIC ANSWER IS NO, NO NO.

I DO NOT WANT TO LIVE IN THIS TYPE OF STATE. AND I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR ANY POLITICAL GROUPS IN FAVOR OF THOSE LAWS AND IN FAVOR OF SUCH PROGRAMS.

 

[fpt]

A theocratic penal system in link with all the morality of catholicism is not in the catholic perspective: two spheres, the moral sphere and the legal sphere of penal law: the temporal power and the spiritual power (Caesar and God, God and Caesar).

See the history of the Prohibition in the USA??? Moral issues, Social Issues, Legal Issues, Tax Issues, Penal Issues, Civil Issues, International Issues, Diplomatic Issues, Religious Issues, Cultural Issues, Liberty Issues, Business issues, Job Issues,…etc.

Each period of history has to be purified, Each law has to be analysed, each mentality has to be purified, each belief has to be purified, each political view has to be purified, each legal sanction has to be purified by the catholic doctrine in order to know if it is only a question of morality or if there are two questions: morality and penal law???

 

[fpt]

The dictatorship of the penal law of the State does not have to be the principle and the rule.

The solutions:

1. The philosophical debate, the theological debate, the moral debate, the ethical debate, the psychological debate on the human nature, on the human rights, on the notion of State, on the notion of country, on the notion of justice, on the notion of law.
2. The philosophical debate, the theological debate, the moral debate, the ethical debate, the psychological debate on the role and the function of the penal law, in general.

3.The philosophical debate, the theological debate, the moral debate, the ethical debate, the psychological debate on the role and the function of the penal law about the sexuality, the corporeity, the sexual intimacy, the private life.

For avoiding wrong laws, for changing the wrong laws, for elaborating good, fair, just and balanced laws, and for abrogating awful laws.

1. The judicial actions until the Supreme Court and the equivalent for stopping the awful, unfair, immoral laws.
2. The ultimate solution, in the special conditions with very stict conditions, the self defense for the protection of the human nature and the true rights of each human being. The self defence with the concept of proportionality means the using of the violence: The legitimate violence is coming from the natural moral order, under very strict conditions (see the history of the creation of the USA, Tax laws from the UK, the unfair law from the British King, The Vendée against the French Revolution).

 

[shocktrooper]

Sorry, but the catholicism is not, per se, the Old Testament. The moral order of the morality and the legal order of the State law are not the same before the Christ , and after the Christ.

Are you suggesting there is no hermeneutic of continuity between the OT, NT and Sacred Tradition?

 

[fpt]

Are you suggesting there is no hermeneutic of continuity between the OT, NT and Sacred Tradition?

Read me in the details with all the subtleties.

A theocratic penal system in link with all the morality of catholicism is not in the catholic perspective. In catholicism, there are two spheres,: the moral sphere and the legal sphere of penal law: the temporal power and the spiritual power (Caesar and God, God and Caesar).

Each period of history has to be purified, Each law has to be analysed, each mentality has to be purified, each belief has to be purified, each political view has to be purified, each legal sanction has to be purified by the catholic doctrine in order to know if it is only a question of morality or if there are two questions: morality and penal law???

The problems of the role of the penal law about the sex and the corporeity, in the USA, are coming from the protestantism, from the puritanism, from the mormonism, from the evangelical movements, from the christian fundamentalists (the born agains), from quiverfull movements, from the theoritical providentialism, the neo-puritanism…etc.

In the USA, the philosophical view about the law is very weird: The powerful of the formal law. The USA needs purification for respecting the distinction between moral sphre and penal sphere about the the sexuality and the corporeity.

Do you regret the old laws about private sexuality in the bed coming from the puritanism??? The refusal of two spheres is the issue.

 

[fpt]

Are you suggesting there is no hermeneutic of continuity between the OT, NT and Sacred Tradition?

Today, because of radical feminism, of socialism, of neo-puritanism, of wrong acception of two spheres, under good intentions, the catholic lay persons of good faith or a wrong faith try to prohibit all immoral acts. But, the moral rules of catholicism are not like that.

See the catholic doctrine of the role and the function of the penal law, all is full of subtleties. The simple refusal of studying this topic in the details is the issue. Each catholic has the moral obligation to see that.

The theory of the tolerance of the prostitution by the penal law of State has to be the rule. It is the catholic moral view, in my humble opinion.

The sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house), per se, are immoral, but that they should not be banned, prohibited and punished by the penal laws of State. The client and the prostitute should not be annoyed by the penal laws of the State (my acception of the definition of the prostitution).

 

[fpt]

Are you suggesting there is no hermeneutic of continuity between the OT, NT and Sacred Tradition?

The marital act during the periods of wife would be immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

The adultery of woman or the adultery of man is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

The forcination, the pre marital sex is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

The prostitution, per se (the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house), is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

The french kiss between lovers (between female and male) in public would be immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

The homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house) are immoral, sinful, and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

As catholic lay person, do you want really to criminalize all those behaviors???

If your answer is yes, I am very afraid by your lack of knowledges of the catholic system of the morality. Your catholic mentality seems to me full of wrong christian mentalities. We are on the catholic forum, not on a christian forum with all christian confessions.

 

[shocktrooper]

The marital act during the periods of wife would be immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

Though, I do not practice this, why is this on your list of immoral acts?

 

[fpt]

Though, I do not practice this, why is this on your list of immoral acts?

Though, I do not practice this, why is this on your list of immoral acts?

Because, in the old testament, it was a law of purification and it was sinful for the husband to have sex with her wife during her periods. Catholics are not hold by this old law.

In catholicism, it is not a moral issue, it is not sinful, it is totally moral, and per se it is not a relevant reason for the refusal of marital act. The refusal of marital act has to be justify by a real and objective reason. In this special case, not the periods, but the tireness of wife, the difficult periods. By defintion, period is not a disease, it is natural and many woman are well during their periods. Only the bad effects of periods, if they are present, are a good reason for the refusal.

 

[fpt]

Though, I do not practice this, why is this on your list of immoral acts?

It was for teasing you nicely (in catholic way) and for showing the absurdism of some catholic moral views about the role and the function of penal law of State concerning the corporiety and the sexuality, even in private.

In order to be understood very well, I am against, of course, the penal sanctions for these behaviors. As catholic lay person, I do not want to criminalize those acts and I do not wish to live in a such country.

 

[shocktrooper]

It was for teasing you nicely (in catholic way) and for showing the absurdism of some catholic moral views about the role and the function of penal law of State concerning the corporiety and the sexuality, even in private.

In order to be understood very well, I am against, of course, the penal sanctions for these behaviors. As catholic lay person, I do not want to criminalize those acts and I do not wish to live in a such country.

The marital act during the periods of wife would be immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is not an intrinsic evil, thus can be allowed by penal law.

The adultery of woman or the adultery of man is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is intrinsically evil, thus the penal code (Divine Law) must be adhered to by both individuals and states (nations).

The forcination, the pre marital sex is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is intrinsically evil, thus the penal code (Divine Law) must be adhered to by both individuals and states (nations).

The prostitution, per se (the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house), is immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is intrinsically evil, thus the penal code (Divine Law) must be adhered to by both individuals and states (nations).

The french kiss between lovers (between female and male) in public would be immoral, sinful and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is not an intrinsic evil, thus can be allowed by penal law.

The homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house) are immoral, sinful, and thus should be punished by the penal law of state.

This is intrinsically evil, thus the penal code (Divine Law) must be adhered to by both individuals and states (nations).

As catholic lay person, do you want really to criminalize all those behaviors???

No, but most. The Reign of Christ the King according to His divine and natural law is something every Catholic should strive for, in both the temporal and spiritual worlds.

We need to make sure that we separate intrinsic evils from other acts while having this conversation.

God bless.

 

[fpt]

**The fundamental issue is, in philosophy of right and in metaphysic of law, the role and the function of the penal law of State. ** If there is a wrong view, the law is not a law, it is only a formal law without legitimacy.

In my humble opinion, the criminalization of those behaviors would be dangerous and scandalous for the human rights, for the private life and for the intimity of human beings.

As catholic lay person, in all conscience and morally speaking in the catholic way, I should fight against those penal laws coming from a wrong view of catholicism on the rule and the function of the penal law because of several heresies (puritanism, protestanism, fideism, quietism, jansenism, moralism, rigorism, evangelical fundamentalists, mormonism, new christian movements…etc): It would be a moral obligation, for each catholic, to disagree with those laws, to avoid their penal effects and not to be an active actor for their application.

This type of country would be a dictatorship because of the violation of the private life and the wrong acception of the notion of the role and function of the penal of State.

The catholics in the USA have to purify their catholic thought who is indirectly touched by the puritanism coming from the protestantism and his friends. Sorry, but the American view on the sexuality and the corporeity is full of contradictions and is full of hypocrisy.

The moral view for the movement from the morality to the penal law is too simplistic. It is very simple, not very rational , and not in link with the catholic doctrine of the role of penal laws and the State.

In conclusion, I am scared by the religious mentalities of catholic lay persons in the USA, in the two senses, the liberal catholic persons in favor of the gay marriage, in favor of direct and voluntary abortion, in favor of gender…etc, but also by the fundamentalist catholic who want to rape the intimacy of bedroom…etc.

The two parts are wrong. Actually, they are the two faces of the same piece of money. They are cousins, they are against the nature of human beings.

 

[Spider42]

The moral view for the movement from the morality to the penal law is too simplistic. It is very simple, not very rational , and not in link with the catholic doctrine of the role of penal laws and the State.

By and large, Rome would seem to agree:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

“The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.” #4

Rome also goes on at length about the realities and concessions of life in a democratic and pluralistic society (“freedom of religion”, for all, not just Catholics, is a non-negotiable moral principle (also in #4).

In conclusion, I am scared by the religious mentalities of catholic lay persons in the USA, in the two senses, the liberal catholic persons in favor of the gay marriage, in favor of direct and voluntary abortion, in favor of gender…etc, but also by the fundamentalist catholic who want to rape the intimacy of bedroom…etc.

I would encourage you to try to let go of any fear you have of your fellow man. As Pope Benedict noted in 2011, we live in the safest time in human history with regards to physical danger from our fellow man and we carry the light of Christ. The only thing we need to fear is God. Our fear of men is existential and irrational. Jesus expressly invited us to abandon our fear of our neighbors in Holy Scripture.

The two parts are wrong. Actually, they are the two faces of the same piece of money. They are cousins, they are against the nature of human beings.

My take would be more charitable. Their moral consciences are poorly developed in different ways. We all have moral deficiencies, so it is distinctly uncharitable to demean others for having them as well, just because their failings are not the same as our own.

When I talk to Catholics who have diametrically opposed positions on gay marriage, I typically find that their motives are admirable. Wanting to promote Church teaching or wanting to promote basic civil rights, etc. What is generally missing all around is the proper understanding of context. Look at how the document above brings up the teaching for voting:

“Analogously [to protecting the human embryo], the family needs to be safeguarded and promoted, based on monogamous marriage between a man and a woman, and protected in its unity and stability in the face of modern laws on divorce: in no way can other forms of cohabitation be placed on the same level as marriage, nor can they receive legal recognition as such.” - #4 emphasis in the original

Compare this with shouting “gay marriage!” If you understand that the Church is not simply trying to ‘get’ or ‘demonize’ gay people, but striving to preserve our idea of the human family and the sacrament of marriage, there is more common ground. When a Catholic simply sees ‘gay marriage’ as no direct threat to them and as a simple civil rights issue, I typically ask them, “do you think children are sometimes negatively impacted by divorce?” Conversely, the proper context of family opens the question to Catholics who view the teaching too narrowly of “why, if they want to protect marriage, are they voting for a candidate who is divorced and an admitted adulterer?”, etc.

If we, collectively, don’t understand the framework, then it is very difficult to have empathy for our brothers and sisters in Christ who are not in lock step with us. This can lead to an adversarial relationship, which is not our Christian calling. As the USCCB explained beautifully here:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/

“Clearly not every Catholic can be actively involved on each of these concerns, but we need to support one another as our community of faith defends human life and dignity wherever it is threatened. We are not factions, but one family of faith fulfilling the mission of Jesus Christ.” #29

The bishops then go on to quote a longer version of the quote from Rome I used at the top of this message.

This is why I think it is so morally perilous for Catholics to delegate their Christian obligation and required judgement to a lay group with an overly simplified document. Catholic Answers does not teach as authentic teachers, with the authority of Christ. The Magisterium does (Lumen Gentium #25).

 

[Spider42]

We need to make sure that we separate intrinsic evils from other acts while having this conversation.

Actually, the Church disagrees:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

“The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.” - #4

The USCCB takes this same basic quote and goes on to explain how elevating specific teachings to special status can undermine Catholic doctrine as a whole here:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship-document.cfm

See #27 to #30.

For even more guidance on how issues can intertwine, there is the Pastoral Constitution of the Church here:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

Many Catholics are surprised to find “abortion” and “deportation” (among other things) in the same paragraph (#27). But our belief on both has the same theological foundation. If we limit ourselves to accepting the specific applications without accepting the underlying foundation, we are no longer acting in a truly Catholic context.

 

[fpt]

As catholic, we need to understand** the global logic of catholic doctrine in the details with all the subtleties. **

All heresies and all ideologies that were banned, with their friends and their cousins, even if , per se, they were not banned officially (for identifying, we have to use the objective and realistic philosophy, the good sense, the holy tradition) should be avoided by catholic politicians in order to elaborate the penal law on the private sexuality.

The fundamentalist catholics or the christian fundamentalists, in the catholic acception and not in the secular acception, are dangerous and **are not aware of the subtleties of catholic doctrine on the penal law of State. The penal law of State does not have to enter in the bed of each person: **It is a rape of intimacy, it is wrong, it is awful. It is unfair.

The role and the function of the penal law of State, That is the question???

 

[BroomWagon]

Right, pre-marital sex may not be a political issue but we know left wingers are forcing genocide on this country as what happened in Germany, Rwanda and Cambodia.

(1) Abortion
(2) Euthanasia
(3) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
(4) Human Cloning
(5) Homosexual “marriage”

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I nominate Spider42 as Best Thread Contributor for this thread.

His/her use of authoritative sources and quotations, and his/her use of balance and fair reason helped me understand that “the 5 non-negotiables” is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but is just a political strategy developed by a group of lay Catholics, and furthermore that, the teaching that is contained in the “the 5 non-negotiables,” while drawn from Catholic sources, in effect ends up mis-informing Catholics about the authentic guidance for Catholic voters provided by the Catholic Bishops and the Catholic Pope.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

I just checked the Catholic Answers 2012 voter’s guide. It contains no “Nihil Obstat” or “Imprimatur” from a Catholic bishop.

If that voter’s guide was consistent with the Catholic Faith, would not they have sought that out in order to verify to the world that there controversial voters guide was truly Catholic in its teaching?

To see that this voter’s guide has no “Nihil Obstat” or “Imprimatur,” go to: catholic.com/sites/default/files/voters_guide_for_serious_catholics.pdf

By contrast, the Catholic Answers organization DID seek out and get “Nihil Obstat” or “Imprimatur” rulings from a Catholic bishop for their tracts. See, for example, their track on Birth Control: catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

 

[fpt]

I nominate Spider42 as Best Thread Contributor for this thread.

His/her use of authoritative sources and quotations, and his/her use of balance and fair reason helped me understand that “the 5 non-negotiables” is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, but is just a political strategy developed by a group of lay Catholics, and furthermore that, the teaching that is contained in the “the 5 non-negotiables,” while drawn from Catholic sources, in effect ends up mis-informing Catholics about the authentic guidance for Catholic voters provided by the Catholic Bishops and the Catholic Pope.

For information

4 non-negotiables point

ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
TO THE MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN PEOPLE’S PARTY
ON THE OCCASION OF THE STUDY DAYS ON EUROPE

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060330_eu-parliamentarians_en.html

**

• protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death;**

** recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family - as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage - and its defence from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role;**

- the protection of the right of parents to educate their children.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19031937_divini-redemptoris_en.html

DIVINI REDEMPTORIS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON ATHEISTIC COMMUNISM
TO THE PATRIARCHS, PRIMATES,
ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS, AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE.

- The communism