Aren't there 13 Non-Negotiables, not just 5?

[fpt]

Mulligan2, my comments stem from my understanding of the Mystical Body of Christ. You need to try to escape the temporal order for a second when reading me.

A body is one and functions as a whole. When one member suffers, the body as a whole suffers. In the mystical body of Christ, when one sins, the others suffer, though not all will suffer directly. The view on the role of government and its laws and the laws in the Church change when you see the laws as guard rails preventing you from spiritual death and not impediments preventing you from some false joy, or some false sense of liberty. What father gives his son a snake when he asks for a fish? We all seek true joy (the presence of God) whether we know it or not. A good father provides the means for that desire to be fulfilled, not perverted. A good government, likewise, should provide what is best for its people, not give them license to sin and possibly suffer eternal damnation.

In catholicism, there are two spheres, the moral sphere and the legal sphere of penal law: the temporal power and the spiritual power (Caesar and God, God and Caesar, the sphere of the morality , and the sphere of penal law of State).

Thus, in general, as catholic lay person, we have the moral obligation of discerning if the act has to stay in the sphere of the morality or if it also has to be punished by the law, by an entrance in the sphere of the penal law of State: the penal law of the State does not have to be the principle and the rule.

 

[shocktrooper]

The fundamental issue is, in philosophy of right and in metaphysic of law, the role and the function of the penal law of State. **If there is a wrong view at the spring, the law is not a law, it is only a formal law without legitimacy. **
**The role and the function of the penal law of State, That is the question??? **

The fundamentalist catholics or the christian fundamentalists, in the catholic acception and not in the secular acception, are dangerous and are not aware of the subtleties of catholic doctrine on the penal law of State. The penal law of State does not have to enter in the bed of each person: It is a rape of intimacy, it is wrong, it is awful. It is unfair.

The religious mentalities of catholic lay persons in the USA, in the two senses, the liberal catholic persons in favor of the gay marriage, in favor of direct and voluntary abortion, in favor of gender…etc, but also by the fundamentalist catholics who want to rape the intimacy of bedroom…etc are morally wrong, absurd and thus dangerous for each person and for the society.

Here, the two parts are morally wrong. Actually, they are the two faces of the same piece of money. They are cousins, they are against the nature of human beings.

Church document, please, that supports what you are putting forth!

Do you want to live in a theocratic police state about private sexuality in your own bedroom???

You mean, what we currently have now, just not theocratic? If I am not mistaken, if I rape my wife in my own private bedroom and no one finds out, then I will not be punished under the law. However, if my crime is made public, then the weight of the law comes down on me.

And can you answer my questions directly and not divert by asking your own?

 

[shocktrooper]

In catholicism, there are two spheres, the moral sphere and the legal sphere of penal law: the temporal power and the spiritual power (Caesar and God, God and Caesar, the sphere of the morality , and the sphere of penal law of State).

Thus, in general, as catholic lay person, we have the moral obligation of discerning if the act has to stay in the sphere of the morality or if it also has to be punished by the law, by an entrance in the sphere of the penal law of State: the penal law of the State does not have to be the principle and the rule.

If the acts being discerned are intrinsic evils, then the “penal law of the State” must conform to the “sphere of the morality”. Please show me a Church document that states differently.

 

[fpt]

Church document, please, that supports what you are putting forth!

You mean, what we currently have now, just not theocratic? If I am not mistaken, if I rape my wife in my own private bedroom and no one finds out, then I will not be punished under the law. However, if my crime is made public, then the weight of the law comes down on me.

And can you answer my questions directly and not divert by asking your own?

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:

The penal law prohibits and punishes the adultery of husband or the adultery of wife?

The penal law prohibits and punishes the pre marital sex?

The penal law prohibits and punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)?

The penal law prohibits and punishes the homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and banned any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place ?

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place???

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults, in the private place???

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the adultery???

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the pre marital sex???

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)??

 

[shocktrooper]

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:…

Ok, I will play your game one more time, and I hope you repay me by answering my questions directed towards you and provide Church documents to support your opinion.

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:
The penal law prohibits and punishes the adultery of husband or the adultery of wife?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the pre marital sex?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and banned any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place ?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place???
—depends on what you mean by “all sex acts”

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults, in the private place???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the adultery???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the pre marital sex???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)??
—yes

Ok, your turn, my friend.

God bless.

 

[fpt]

Ok, I will play your game one more time, and I hope you repay me by answering my questions directed towards you and provide Church documents to support your opinion.

I am Looking for, in all honestly.

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:
The penal law prohibits and punishes the adultery of husband or the adultery of wife?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the pre marital sex?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and banned any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place ?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place???
—depends on what you mean by “all sex acts”

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults, in the private place???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the adultery???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the pre marital sex???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)??
—yes

Ok, your turn, my friend.

God bless.

Your view is like the muslim religion who is not capable to see there are two spheres. That was almost the same in the Old testament. It is very difficult and thus probably impossible to have a debate, if you do not accept this principle.

By essence, in the catholicism, that means in verity and in link with the natural law that the temporal power does not have to be theocratic, per se. There is a distinction between the temporal power and the spiritual power. It is like that, it is not negotiable.

The temporal power has to respect the natural moral of the humanity, with the rights, the duties and the obligations.

 

[fpt]

Ok, I will play your game one more time, and I hope you repay me by answering my questions directed towards you and provide Church documents to support your opinion.

As catholic lay person, do you want to live in the State where:
The penal law prohibits and punishes the adultery of husband or the adultery of wife?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the pre marital sex?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes the homosexual acts in the private place between two adults (bedroom), and banned any and all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults in the private place ?
—yes

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place???
—depends on what you mean by “all sex acts”** (foreplay, sexual foreplay, all kisses, all sexual contacts between consenting heterosexual adults)** before, during and after the union of bodies or the imitations

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting homosexual adults, in the private place???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the adultery???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the pre marital sex???
—yes

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes the sexual acts for money between two adults in the private place (in a bedroom, at home, in a motel, in a hostel, in a flat, in a house)??
—yes

Ok, your turn, my friend.

God bless.

**Ask to your priest, because your answers are very…, no words. I am very …; no voice by your view.
**

I am looking for the documents, in all honesty.

 

[shocktrooper]

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes theft?
**
By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of theft. Otherwise no.**

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes murder?

By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of murder. Otherwise no.

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes rape?

By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of rape. Otherwise no.

Would you support a candidate that advocates for a penal system that punishes tax evasion?

By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of tax evasion. Otherwise no. Here, the concept of tax evasion is very relative. It is case by case. It is in function of the fundamental principles of the philosophy of the tax law. I am in favor of tax Paradise in my State. Today, the states are too much touched the the socialism, the pseudo charity.

fpt, I must have missed this earlier. I apologize.

Can you please explain to me what this means…
By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of rape. Otherwise no.

and also explain why you would not support a penal system that punishes homosexual behavior if it has the good acception of the notion of homosexual behavior.

 

[fpt]

and also explain why you would not support a penal system that punishes homosexual behavior if it has the good acception of the notion of homosexual behavior.

It has to be a difference between homosexual behaviors in public and in private. The “making love” between two men or two women in their bedroom should not be punished by the penal law. it is not the business of the State. It is, only, a private sin and a private immoral act, the society, temporally speaking, is not touched by their acts.
**
In public it is different.**

 

[shocktrooper]

I am looking for the documents

, in all honesty.

The penal law prohibits and punishes all sex acts between two or more consenting heterosexual adults outside of legal marriage, in the private place???
—depends on what you mean by “all sex acts” (foreplay, sexual foreplay, all kisses, all sexual contacts between consenting heterosexual adults) before, during and after the union of bodies or the imitations

This is why I was cautious to answer this one with a “yes”. I do think there are appropriate signs of affection that are not “sexual” in nature, e.g. kissing. And again, I am only in support for a penal system that makes intrinsic evils illegal.

I don’t see how anyone can hold an opinion that a penal system can make murder illicit but not homosexual acts. Both are intrinsic evils, which means they are always wrong no matter what the circumstances (public or private).

Can you explain how you do it?

 

[shocktrooper]

It has to be a difference between homosexual behaviors in public and in private.

The “making love” between two men or two women in their bedroom should not be punished by the penal law. it is not the business of the State. It is, only, a private sin and a private immoral act, the society, temporally speaking, is not touched by their acts.

Why does this difference need to exist? Does God not see what goes on in the bedroom?

In public it is different.

Are you saying this behavior would not be scandalous and have no impact on others in this world, not one child, not one observer or ear that hears? This would have no impact on the passing on of sexual diseases and the perversion of marriage, which affects others in this temporal order?

 

[TimothyH]

The current 5 Non-Negotiables is a list of acts that are intrinsic evils according to the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church.

These are the intrinsic evils on the current 5 Non-Negotiables list:

(1) Abortion
(2) Euthanasia
(3) Embryonic Stem Cell Research
(4) Human Cloning
(5) Homosexual “marriage”

To the point of the original post, according to the Church there are three intrinsic evils - rape, contraception and abortion.

Intrinsic evil means that it is evil in its very nature, that there is no good in it at all. Enbryonic stem cell research, human cloning and homosexual unions are not intrinsically evil. Whether anyone likes to hear it or not, the other things on that list may have some good come from them. They are gravely disordered but nowhere will you find the term “Intrinsic evil” associated with homosexuality, cloning of any kind or stem cell research of any kind.

A doctrine of “Five non-negotiables” is not taught by the Church. For Catholics, all sin is non-negotiable. Societal injustice is non-negotiable. The need to pray to God daily is not negotiable.

The doctrine of “Five non-negotiables” is something which Catholic Answers made up.

-Tim-

 

[fpt]

fpt, I must have missed this earlier. I apologize.

Can you please explain to me what this means…
By principle, yes, but only, if he has the good acception of the notion of rape. Otherwise no.

The acception of the notion of rape has to be define without machism, without radical feminism, without gender theory, without puritanism, without presumptionism of rape automatically, per se, without the sexism coming from female, without the sexism coming from male.

A woman can be raped by a man, woman can be raped by a woman, man can be raped by a man, man can be raped by woman.

The conjugal rape is possible of course, but for the husband or the wife, the presumption of agreement has to be the rule, this presumption is not irrefragable (irrebuttable), of course

 

[fpt]

Why does this difference need to exist? Does God not see what goes on in the bedroom?

Are you saying this behavior would not be scandalous and have no impact on others in this world, not one child, not one observer or ear that hears? This would have no impact on the passing on of sexual diseases and the perversion of marriage, which affects others in this temporal order?

The civil law of State does not have to recognize the “mariage” for the same sex persons;

The penal law of State does not have to criminalize the homosexual acts of the same sex persons, in their bedroom, at home. It is not the business of State. The penal law of the State has to protect the society if there are exterior impacts and external effects: the sphere of the morality and the sphere of the penal law.

Ask to your priest, it is the better solution.

Do you wish to put in jail or to order to give money to their State, the persons who “makes love” in a sodomite way in their bedroom? Are you serious??

 

[Mulligan2]

Mulligan2, my comments stem from my understanding of the Mystical Body of Christ. You need to try to escape the temporal order for a second when reading me.

A body is one and functions as a whole. When one member suffers, the body as a whole suffers. In the mystical body of Christ, when one sins, the others suffer, though not all will suffer directly. The view on the role of government and its laws and the laws in the Church change when you see the laws as guard rails preventing you from spiritual death and not impediments preventing you from some false joy, or some false sense of liberty. What father gives his son a snake when he asks for a fish? We all seek true joy (the presence of God) whether we know it or not. A good father provides the means for that desire to be fulfilled, not perverted. A good government, likewise, should provide what is best for its people, not give them license to sin and possibly suffer eternal damnation.

I understand what you’re saying. I suppose we have profoundly different ideas as to the proper role of government.

 

[fpt]

shocktrooper

If your daughter is making love with her boy friend (consensual sex), do you want to impose to them of giving money to the State or of going to jail, because your local penal law says that ?? Do you want to punish them like that? Are you serious?

Do you want to search the homosexuals into their home in order to punish them, because of their private sins??? Are you serious? It is crazy, it is absurd.

Do you want to punish by the penal law a husband who practices the coïtus interruptus? Are you serious??? It is not the business of the State. it is only an issue between the husband, the wife, the Holy Trinity and the priest in confession, not more and not less. Otherwise, are you really catholic??? The fundamentalism is absurd.

 

[shocktrooper]

Do you wish to put in jail or to order to give money to their State, the persons who “makes love” in a sodomite way in their bedroom? Are you serious??

Yes, if the alternative is that we condone it, make it licit, and put the souls of people in grave danger. Would you rather the damnation of souls, rather than a legal fee?

Did you find any Church document to support your idea?

Thanks

 

[shocktrooper]

shocktrooper

If your daughter is making love with her boy friend (consensual sex), do you want to impose to them of giving money to the State or of going to jail, because your local penal law says that ?? Do you want to punish them like that? Are you serious?

Do you want to search the homosexuals into their home in order to punish them, because of their private sins??? Are you serious? It is crazy, it is absurd.

Do you want to punish by the penal law a husband who practices the coïtus interruptus? Are you serious??? It is not the business of the State. it is only an issue between the husband, the wife, the Holy Trinity and the priest in confession, not more and not less. Otherwise, are you really catholic??? The fundamentalism is absurd.

Yes, I would like for my daughter to be held to the standards of Christ.

Do you see any value in any law? I mean, with your logic, why don’t we just throw the whole bunch of them out and have a “do what you want” system. I mean, do you really “want to search the polygamist, thief, murderer, rapist, drug runner, arms dealer into their home in order to punish them, because of their private sins?”

Why do you fear the law of God? Are you unsure of the fullness of Truth that lies in the Catholic Church and Her moral teachings?

 

[fpt]

Yes, if the alternative is that we condone it, make it licit, and put the souls of people in grave danger. Would you rather the damnation of souls, rather than a legal fee?

Did you find any Church document to support your idea?

Thanks

illinoismedieval.org/ems/VOL13/13ch4.html

Legalizing prostitution on St. Augustine’s and St. Thomas’ authority
« on: February 14, 2010, 08:50M »

I’ve been thinking about these quotes:

Summa Theologica: Part II of book II, question 10, article 11

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): “If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.” Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided. Thus from the fact that the Jews observe their rites, which, of old, foreshadowed the truth of the faith which we hold, there follows this good–that our very enemies bear witness to our faith, and that our faith is represented in a figure, so to speak. For this reason they are tolerated in the observance of their rites.

Divine Providence and The Problem of Evil - St. Augustine
What can be mentioned more sordid, more bereft of decency, or more full of turpitude than prostitutes, procurers, and the other pests of that sort? Remove prostitutes from human affairs, and you will unsettle everything because of lusts; place them in the position of matrons, and you will dishonor these latter by disgrace and ignominy. This class of people is, therefore, by its own mode of life most unchaste in its morals; by the law of order, it is most vile in social condition.

Is both doctors saying that they don’t mind the state legalizing prostitution?

The fact of tolerating certain sin is okay, but not legalizing them.

 

[fpt]

Yes, I would like for my daughter to be held to the standards of Christ.

I am sorry, but your view is puritan. It is not catholic, ask to your priest. In my humble opinion, your view is absurd. Are you a catholic fundamentalist? You need to talk with you priest.

Do you see any value in any law? I mean, with your logic, why don’t we just throw the whole bunch of them out and have a “do what you want” system. I mean, do you really “want to search the polygamist, thief, murderer, rapist, drug runner, arms dealer into their home in order to punish them, because of their private sins?”

Why do you fear the law of God? Are you unsure of the fullness of Truth that lies in the Catholic Church and Her moral teachings?