Argentine bishop, too, threatens excommunication for faithful who attend SSPX chapels [CC]

[Catholic_Press]

Following the lead of an influential Italian bishop, a bishop in Argentina has warned that Catholics may be penalized with excommunication if they attend Mass at chapels administered by …

More…

 

[ProVobis]

This is something which the bishop of Lincoln, NE. did back in the 90’s. But that’s when the SSPX bishops were still excommunicated themselves.

 

[dans0622]

Bishop Bruskewitz’s action was directed to people who had “membership” in the FSSPX and other organizations. So, rank and file “parishioners” would not have been impacted. Certainly, somebody who just happened to go to a few Masses would not have been penalized.

I find this Argentine bishop’s (and the Italian bishop’s, too) action to be pretty heavy-handed and even uncalled for–why go after the people in the pews and leave the members of the FSSPX untouched? But, at the same time, these two recent statements are a bit vague so I wonder if anybody could actually be excommunicated as a result… I doubt it but would have to look into the matter more closely before coming to a decision on that.

Dan

 

[ProVobis]

Bishop Bruskewitz’s action was directed to people who had “membership” in the FSSPX and other organizations. So, rank and file “parishioners” would not have been impacted. Certainly, somebody who just happened to go to a few Masses would not have been penalized.

I find this Argentine bishop’s (and the Italian bishop’s, too) action to be pretty heavy-handed and even uncalled for–why go after the people in the pews and leave the members of the FSSPX untouched? But, at the same time, these two recent statements are a bit vague so I wonder if anybody could actually be excommunicated as a result… I doubt it but would have to look into the matter more closely before coming to a decision on that.

Dan

I believe Bishop B didn’t pursue the matter further because of a Hawaii Six case ruling several years earlier which had found similar excommunications invalid.

As Father Z noted, the timing of this (or at least the first one) is pretty suspect, especially coming after talks have been resumed/initiated between the FSSPX and the Vatican/Cardinal Mueller.

 

[commenter]

I find this Argentine bishop’s (and the Italian bishop’s, too) action to be pretty heavy-handed and even uncalled for–why go after the people in the pews and leave the members of the FSSPX untouched? But, at the same time, these two recent statements are a bit vague so I wonder if anybody could actually be excommunicated as a result… I doubt it but would have to look into the matter more closely before coming to a decision on that.
Dan

I’m not sure who the “members” of the SSPX would be, since no laity technically belong to it. I don’t know that this bishop would hesitate excommunicating the clergy, if he thought there was extreme justification.

I hesitate to criticize bishops responding to specific situations in their own diocese, where there always are other factors not visible to me. Argentina is where the SSPX raided an ecumenical service several months ago. It may be very different there than the SSPX is in other dioceses or other countries. Perhaps visiting their churches there has different ramifications that it would in other places.

An excommunication is not like a bouncer grabbing someone and heaving him out the door, yelling “And stay out!” Rather it is more like telling someone that their behavior and beliefs have gone so far wrong that they have now - by their own actions - passed beyond the boundaries of the Catholic Faith. But they are welcome to come back, by choosing to restore their spiritual health.

 

[boar2roar]

Easy picking on a target like SSPX. Why don’t Argentinian bishops have the courage to excomunicate certain politicians in their country, or chastise people in their diocese who vote them in, Why is there president still a catholic in good standing when she promotes social evils like gay adoption?

 

[graciew]

I have just read AICA.org.
The issue seems to be that Mons. Sarlinga has written a decree that priests from this Society cannot use Catholic temples,oratories or other places of catholic cult in his jurisdiction.

In his diocese and nearby ones,people could not understand too well the difference between the liturgy and ecclesiastical communion. In other words,they thought they were attending valid Masses,confessions etc,because they " looked " like valid and this had become confusing.

My understanding is he had received requests,warnings and questions from priests,deans,pastors and faithful that catholic faithful were participating in the sacraments celebrated by lefevrist priests in his diocese and particularly in Pilar and Escobar( nearby).
So he needed to protect his flock by setting boundaries. Many faithful probably did not realize what they were doing,but he explained the consequences to those who would be aware lefevrist were not in communion with the Pope.

I will copy paste the link in Spanish

http://www.aica.org/14910-mons-sarl...aciones-lefebvristas-carecen-de-validez.html/

And translated with google translate

http://translate.google.com.ar/tran...raciones-lefebvristas-carecen-de-validez.html

 

[graciew]

Easy picking on a target like SSPX. Why don’t Argentinian bishops have the courage to excomunicate certain politicians in their country, or chastise people in their diocese who vote them in, Why is there president still a catholic in good standing when she promotes social evils like gay adoption?

I believe your statement and questions do not apply. It is getting into a socio political arena foreign to this thread to begin with,and questioning what bishops in a foreign country do of fail to do,which is hypothesizing and inadequate. IMO.

 

[boar2roar]

I believe your statement and questions do not apply.

Do not apply to what?

 

[graciew]

The headlines in the English translation of AICA should read " Monsignor Sarlinga warned that lefevrist celebrations lack validity."

There is no threat in his words,but boundaries,as I see it.

 

[RosslynV]

Does this mean that the sspx is devoid of the Holy Spirit?! Other faith communities such as the Buddhists, protestants and even snake worshippers have the Holy Spirit according to the Vatican, otherwise they’d be excommunicated as well.

 

[dans0622]

I believe Bishop B didn’t pursue the matter further because of a Hawaii Six case ruling several years earlier which had found similar excommunications invalid.

As Father Z noted, the timing of this (or at least the first one) is pretty suspect, especially coming after talks have been resumed/initiated between the FSSPX and the Vatican/Cardinal Mueller.

Hello,

I don’t know if anybody was excommunicated on account of FSSPX membership but people in another group (Call to Action, I think) made recourse to the Holy See asking that Bishop Bruskewitz’s decree be tossed. It wasn’t.

I would again draw a distinction between what was done in Hawaii (an action directed toward people in the pew, which the Holy See tossed out), and in Nebraska (an action directed toward “members” in certain organizations–cf. canon 1374–which was upheld by the Holy See).

The Argentine and Italian statements are more akin to the Hawaii version. But, again, they are vague enough to make me wonder if they can actually result in the excommunication of anyone.

Dan

 

[dans0622]

I’m not sure who the “members” of the SSPX would be, since no laity technically belong to it. …

Hello,

Yes, the “members” are clerics.

Dan

 

[ProVobis]

The headlines in the English translation of AICA should read " Monsignor Sarlinga warned that lefevrist celebrations lack validity."

There is no threat in his words,but boundaries,as I see it.

The Church has already admitted that the FSSPX Masses are valid. Confessions and marriages performed are supposedly not, though there are some grey areas in FSSPX marriage situations where annulments may be required for remarriages, for example.

The other issue is whether FSSPX Mass attendance fulfills the Sunday obligation. AFAIK there is no penalty for just attending Mass there.

 

[J_Peterson]

Does this mean that the sspx is devoid of the Holy Spirit?! Other faith communities such as the Buddhists, protestants and even snake worshippers have the Holy Spirit according to the Vatican, otherwise they’d be excommunicated as well.

If you renounce your faith and become a snake worshiper I believe you would be automatically excommunicated. A cradle Buddhist or Protestant was never in communion to begin with so they can’t be excommunicated.

I’m assuming I was excommunicated when I renounced my faith for atheism back in my early 20’s.

 

[ProVobis]

Seems like for one who renounces their faith, excommunication becomes a moot point.

Just sayin…

 

[RosslynV]

Seems like for one who renounces their faith, excommunication becomes a moot point.

Just sayin…

Is a Catholic who attends an sspx Mass someone who has lost the catholic faith?

 

[boar2roar]

If you renounce your faith and become a snake worshiper I believe you would be automatically excommunicated. A cradle Buddhist or Protestant was never in communion to begin with so they can’t be excommunicated.

I’m assuming I was excommunicated when I renounced my faith for atheism back in my early 20’s.

Not publicly, there is a huge difference between a theoretical excommunication and a public one issued by the church.

 

[graciew]

I believe Bishop B didn’t pursue the matter further because of a Hawaii Six case ruling several years earlier which had found similar excommunications invalid.

As Father Z noted, the timing of this (or at least the first one) is pretty suspect, especially coming after talks have been resumed/initiated between the FSSPX and the Vatican/Cardinal Mueller.

You all know much more than I do ,and this particular topic I know practically nothing about.
Thanks for adding.
I just mean to share info from Argentine catholic sources for you to have more local information.
It did sound possible that many people did not know about the issues from a local perspective. That I was sharing too.
Thanks again .

 

[graciew]

The Church has already admitted that the FSSPX Masses are valid. Confessions and marriages performed are supposedly not, though there are some grey areas in FSSPX marriage situations where annulments may be required for remarriages, for example.

The other issue is whether FSSPX Mass attendance fulfills the Sunday obligation. AFAIK there is no penalty for just attending Mass there.

You all know much more than I do ,and this particular topic I know practically nothing about.
Thanks for adding.
I just mean to share info from Argentine catholic sources for you to have more local information. Your analysis counts,not mine.
It did sound possible that many people did not know about the issues from a local perspective. That I was sharing too.
Thanks again .