Argentine bishop, too, threatens excommunication for faithful who attend SSPX chapels [CC]

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If you renounce your faith and become a snake worshiper I believe you would be automatically excommunicated. A cradle Buddhist or Protestant was never in communion to begin with so they can’t be excommunicated.

I’m assuming I was excommunicated when I renounced my faith for atheism back in my early 20’s.
Pope john Paul II has met with voodoo priests (snake worship is one of their tenets) and was even blessed by one such minister in order to promote his ecumenical agenda. Pope JP2 even had words of praise for the voodoo religion and moreover never encouraged them to convert to Catholicism. In light of this, I highly doubt that a catholic should be excommunicated for converting to voodoism! Remember, the Holy Spirit can be found in all faiths!
 
I just mean to share info from Argentine catholic sources for you to have more local information. Your analysis counts,not mine.
It did sound possible that many people did not know about the issues from a local perspective. That I was sharing too.
Thanks again .
You bring up a good point. I don’t know for a fact that Argentine sources are worse or better than American sources, for example. It’s always good to get information from multiple sources if not multiple languages. That’s why we’re here, of course. 🙂
 
Seems like for one who renounces their faith, excommunication becomes a moot point.

Just sayin…
Well, not totally moot yet. I can think of people who regard their membership in the Catholic Church as an important part of their personal identity. An excommunication is a formal notice to them that their own actions or beliefs have brought them outside the Catholic Faith, and thus, the Church. Some people manage to section off their liturgical life, from their political life, from their moral life, from their theology, so that their lives no longer relate to each other. An excommunication may force them to reconsider things.

But I suspect the Catholics who might benefit from excommunication - who value their membership in the Church - are getting fewer. I suspect the younger generation of the SSPX or Call to Action (if CTA has a younger generation) would be less bothered by it than their parents.
 
You bring up a good point. I don’t know for a fact that Argentine sources are worse or better than American sources, for example. It’s always good to get information from multiple sources if not multiple languages. That’s why we’re here, of course. 🙂
 
I know about an older case (in the early days after the SSPX bishops were excommunicated), where a bishop attempted excommunication of those in his diocese who attended SSPX Masses. Rome overturned the decree; while the SSPX bishops were excommunicated, and their priests suspended, attending their Masses did not constitute schism. Given the fact that things have changed a lot since then (lifting of excommunications, still ongoing dialogue), I doubt Rome would decide differently now.
 
Who cares about people who support gay marriage and abortion?
The traditionalists are the real threat!
Pathetic
 
(name removed by moderator):
Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicLife

Who cares about people who support gay marriage and abortion?
The traditionalists are the real threat!
Pathetic

Has anyone implied here that they support gay marriage or abortion? Has the bishop implied he does?
It was a point of a much larger issue. The Church is focusing on the non threat rather than dealing with the systemic issues that are attempting to destroy the Church from the inside. SSPX is just not where the focus should be.

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Wow. I can only imagine what this Bishop must have to say about: pornography, white slavery, child molestation, gang membership, and animal abuse!

In fact, I’m going to surf the net right now to see what kind of spine chilling warnings he levelled at the topless feminists that surrounded the Buenos Aires Cathedral a while back …

catholicnewsagency.com/news/abortion-supporters-try-to-attack-buenos-aires-cathedral/ :eek: — perhaps the comments were scrubbed by the cyberpolice! 🤷

Hmm. The text of the actual letter is much less sensational and rather matter of fact in addressing this issue.

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/11/another-bishop-excommunicates-faithful.html

With all the outright evil in the world maybe I was expecting some severe warnings to the more obviously erring folks.

On the other hand, excommunicating people who are already outside of the church, committing mortal sins and not likely to convert the faithful … might be a little pointless at that. :hmmm:

:crossrc: – hope I did that right …
 
It was a point of a much larger issue. The Church is focusing on the non threat rather than dealing with the systemic issues that are attempting to destroy the Church from the inside. SSPX is just not where the focus should be.

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I think you are saying the greatest focus should be on those groups and movements that reject Catholic tradition and totally reject the living Magisterium. The Church should give highest priority to pulling them back to obedience and sanctity, and those that fail to return should be excommunicated (or rather, they should be informed that they have excommunicated themselves). I think the Church, especially when Pope Benedict was in charge of the CDF, and as Pope, did make a partial response. Progress is being made, though slower than you or I would like.

But what about groups that accept Catholic tradition like the SSPX? They reject - de facto - the living Magisterium. If you say “I accept the teaching of the pope and bishops only when they rightly teach the Catholic Faith”, then you you aren’t in obedience to the living Magisterium; or rather, you are not spiritually benefitting from the living Magisterium.
The Church doesn’t ignore the lesser evil, it deals with it along with dealing with the larger evil at the same time.

Suppose you were in the hospital. Would you keep complaining about the doctors and nurses spending so much time with you? Would you keep protesting “that other man’s illness seems (to me) to be more serious than mine, so take your focus off me”. Of course not. For one thing, you don’t know everything that is going on, and furthermore, you want focus on you, for your benefit.

IMHO the SSPX is not the opposite of the “systemic” groups you referred to. It is the other side of the same coin. Defiance of the CURRENT religious authority is nurtured by the secular culture and influences liberals and conservatives; ok, influences liberals more.
 
Who cares about people who support gay marriage and abortion?
The traditionalists are the real threat!
Pathetic
FWIW, I haven’t seen the statistics but I’ll bet something like 98% of those who attend the Latin Mass voted Republican.
 
40.png
commenter:
Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

It was a point of a much larger issue. The Church is focusing on the non threat rather than dealing with the systemic issues that are attempting to destroy the Church from the inside. SSPX is just not where the focus should be.

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I think you are saying the greatest focus should be on those groups and movements that reject Catholic tradition and totally reject the living Magisterium. The Church should give highest priority to pulling them back to obedience and sanctity, and those that fail to return should be excommunicated (or rather, they should be informed that they have excommunicated themselves). I think the Church, especially when Pope Benedict was in charge of the CDF, and as Pope, did make a partial response. Progress is being made, though slower than you or I would like.

But what about groups that accept Catholic tradition like the SSPX? They reject - de facto - the living Magisterium. If you say “I accept the teaching of the pope and bishops only when they rightly teach the Catholic Faith”, then you you aren’t in obedience to the living Magisterium; or rather, you are not spiritually benefitting from the living Magisterium.
The Church doesn’t ignore the lesser evil, it deals with it along with dealing with the larger evil at the same time.

Suppose you were in the hospital. Would you keep complaining about the doctors and nurses spending so much time with you? Would you keep protesting “that other man’s illness seems (to me) to be more serious than mine, so take your focus off me”. Of course not. For one thing, you don’t know everything that is going on, and furthermore, you want focus on you, for your benefit.

IMHO the SSPX is not the opposite of the “systemic” groups you referred to. It is the other side of the same coin. Defiance of the CURRENT religious authority is nurtured by the secular culture and influences liberals and conservatives; ok, influences liberals more.
I agree with you to a point. I’m not associated with the SSPX folks but have researched a little. They are a part of the Church, despite their irregular status. They do accept and teach the full Magistarium. They reject the errors of the Bishops/Cardinals that gutted the Church in the “spirit” of VII. From my perspective, they could of presented their position more tactfully and patiently. On the other hand, Pope Pius VI and his successors could have shown more respect for all things liturgical prior to 1970. These are human failings but no where have I read, nor heard heretical preaching or teaching.

I’ve been to Masses on three continents and the scene is always the same: aging population, lack luster celebration, and indifferent youth. There are outliers for sure, but the most robust parishes IME are EF parishes. They are young, and full of zeal. What I’m saying is that I see both sides. From my perspective, it seems the bishops are fighting over who is supposed to do the dishes while the kitchen is on fire.

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I don’t know a diocesan Bishop can excommunicate people who attend a SSPX Mass when Ecclesia Dei says that they can under certain circumstances

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CEDSSPX.HTM

The biggest problem that I have with SSPX is how they can say that female Doctors of the Church (St. Theresa of Avila, St. Theresa of the Child Jesus, etc) are bad and Bishop Williamson isn’t really a holocaust denier (at the time that the excommunications were lifted).
 
I agree with you to a point. I’m not associated with the SSPX folks but have researched a little. They are a part of the Church, despite their irregular status. They do accept and teach the full Magistarium. They reject the errors of the Bishops/Cardinals that gutted the Church in the “spirit” of VII. From my perspective, they could of presented their position more tactfully and patiently. On the other hand, Pope Pius VI and his successors could have shown more respect for all things liturgical prior to 1970. These are human failings but no where have I read, nor heard heretical preaching or teaching.

I’ve been to Masses on three continents and the scene is always the same: aging population, lack luster celebration, and indifferent youth. There are outliers for sure, but the most robust parishes IME are EF parishes. They are young, and full of zeal. What I’m saying is that I see both sides. From my perspective, it seems the bishops are fighting over who is supposed to do the dishes while the kitchen is on fire.

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I assume in your second paragraph you refer to the EF at diocesan approved Masses. If so, you are correct. Those Latin Mass communities often are “robust”, but keep in mind they benefit from being part of the larger Body. They benefit from the ministry of the bishop and other clergy in their diocese. Their “zeal” may come partly from the EF, but mostly from being called to conversion, and good works, by their local and global Church. They directly interact with and cooperate in diocesan and national ministries, especially prolife and religious liberty, in ways that isolated SSPX chapels do not. They contribute to and influence those diocesan ministries, which the SSPX does not.

If the enemies of religious liberty have their way - which could happen - there would be no unified Catholic Action as envisioned by the real St. Pius X; there would be only lots of little free standing chapels, which SSPX promotes, each one encouraging independence from the local bishop, independence from Rome and each demanding their “rights” as a chapel. In the SSPX conferences I have read about, I am amazed how little criticism of the US government, Planned Parenthood, the secular media, the UN, etc. Probably 90% of the criticism and warnings are against the pope and bishops. That is the difference between the Latin Mass at the SSPX, and the EF at diocesan approved Masses.
 
… there would be only lots of little free standing chapels, which SSPX promotes, each one encouraging independence from the local bishop, independence from Rome and each demanding their “rights” as a chapel.
I suspect it is the ownership of these chapels where there is hesitation to join Rome. The many benefactors see what is happening with parish closings and such that they would feel that the same would happen to them once they turn over their chapels to the local bishops. But I could be wrong and maybe doctrines are really behind the inability for the sides to join.

OTOH, a personal prelature, which I believe which was proposed, would let them keep their chapels but they still would be under the control and such under the local bishop.

But given the state of hostility against them, the EF, the traditionalists and even the conservatives in general, not to mention internal strife, do you really see any chance of a full communion? The reaction to the lifting of the excommunications alone should give you a hint as to what would happen.
 
I have never in my nearly thirty years of being a convert to Catholicism understood the nature of this conflict between the SSPX and the Vatican.

:confused:
 
I suspect it is the ownership of these chapels where there is hesitation to join Rome. The many benefactors see what is happening with parish closings and such that they would feel that the same would happen to them once they turn over their chapels to the local bishops. But I could be wrong and maybe doctrines are really behind the inability for the sides to join.

OTOH, a personal prelature, which I believe which was proposed, would let them keep their chapels but they still would be under the control and such under the local bishop.

But given the state of hostility against them, the EF, the traditionalists and even the conservatives in general, not to mention internal strife, do you really see any chance of a full communion? The reaction to the lifting of the excommunications alone should give you a hint as to what would happen.
The existing Personal Prelature, Opus Dei, always had been fully in union with the Holy See, it already was respected by most dioceses, and still is; fully unified internally, and consistent over the last several decades. It fully accepts V2, and the current pope. It has lots of bishops, priests, and lay adherents with church appointed ministries. It does none of its apostolate in defiance of any local bishop - before, and after becoming a personal prelature. If they can’t work in conjunction with the local bishop, they go somewhere else. They have mostly cooperative relationships with diocesan priests and most (not all) religious orders.

The SSPX: not in union with the Holy See since the early or mid 1970s; cooperative with no dioceses; has had splits due to sedevacantism; has changed enormously in recent decades, getting more aggressive, more differences with Rome each year, on more and more points; does not fully accept V2; has no bishops, priests or lay adherents with a church appointed ministry. All of its apostolates are in defiance of local bishops. They have antagonistic relationships with almost all priests they come in contact with.

The fact that Opus Dei has its enemies in and outside the Church does not equate it with the SSPX, due to the differences I described.
 
I have never in my nearly thirty years of being a convert to Catholicism understood the nature of this conflict between the SSPX and the Vatican.

:confused:
Its traditionalist vs “modernist” in essence. Th SSPX were teed of that the vatican threw latin into the garbage bin, got rid of almost all dietary laws, proclaimed lenient ecumenism in their view to the point of being religiously pluralistic and indifferent, and changed the mass structure (priest facing people not alter, no gregorian chants). Now those things might seem minor to you because your so used to them but back in the 60s a lot of people were shocked by these changes. The SSPX formed from that sentiment.

The reason why they don’t want to go back is because there hasn’t been a traditionalist pope yet and I don’t think there ever will be one. Benedict was from the conservative wing but far from a traditionalists . I don’t think there is a single traditionalist cardinal right now. I might be wrong but I have never heard of one. Under Francis… lets just say that their head bishop and our pope won’t be talking over tea any time soon.
 
Under Francis… lets just say that their head bishop and our pope won’t be talking over tea any time soon.
catholictruthblog.com/2014/05/11/pope-francis-meets-bishop-fellay/
Rorate Exclusive: Pope Francis received Bp. Fellay, SSPX Superior General, sometime in the past few months.
Rorate has learned and can exclusively confirm that Bishop Bernard Fellay, the Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X (Fraternité Sacerdotale Saint-Pie X – FSSPX / SSPX), was received by Pope Francis in the Domus Sanctae Marthae sometime in the past few months. In order to protect our sources, we cannot detail the date and persons involved in the meeting, but only generally locate it in time – if the current pontificate so far can be divided into two halves, the meeting took place in the second half.
We can also add as part of this exclusive information that it was not a merely fortuitous event – that is to say, many off-the-record meetings with His Holiness have taken place since his election precisely because his being at Saint Martha’s House make him much more accessible and available than many previous pontiffs. No, that was not the case at all – the pope was previously duly informed and duly met Bishop Fellay. The meeting was apparently short and cordial.
Doesn’t really imply tea, but then were I meeting anyone I don’t serve tea either.

But then again I am a barbaric Yankee.

😃
 
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