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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
I’m glad you solved the problem then.
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HarryStotle
Guest
Not much respect there, it seems.
For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves,
“Short and dreary is our life,
and there is no remedy when a life comes to its end,
and no one has been known to return from the dead.
For we were born by mere chance,
and after this life we shall be as if we had never been,
for the breath in our nostrils is a puff of smoke,
and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts;
when it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes,
and the spirit will dissolve like empty air.
Our name will be forgotten in time,
and no one will remember our works;
our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud,
and be scattered like mist
that is chased by the rays of the sun
and overcome by its heat.
For our allotted time is the passing of a shadow,
and there is no return from our death,
because it is sealed up and no one turns back.
“Come, therefore, let us enjoy what good things there are,
and make use of the creation to the full as in youth.
Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes,
and let no flower of spring pass us by.
Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither.
Let none of us forego our part in our orgy;
everywhere let us leave signs of enjoyment,
because this is our portion, and this our lot.
…
Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray,
…
and they did not know the hidden things of God,
nor hoped that holiness would be rewarded,
they can see no reward for blameless souls;
Yet God created us for incorruption,
and made us in the image of his own nature,… (Wisdom 2:1-9, 21-4)
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Abrosz
Guest
I only talk about any activity with sexual connection between consenting adults. I reject the word “sodomy” for the obvious connotations. Animals cannot consent.
I consider being called a “pro-abortionist” to be incorrect and insulting. And sex has several biological functions. The procreative aspect is sometimes included, other times it is not.
In the wide animal freedom, most species (except the Great Apes!) are only able to participate in sexual activities during the time of estrus. This tells me that God designed our sex to be “general”, and NOT confined to procreation. And I am not about to second guess God. If you do, that is your business.
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Abrosz
Guest
I respect your right to hold the opinion you hold. That does not include assent.
Stephen168
New member
When you said We “should advocate all the sexual methods, which do not and cannot lead to pregnancy,” you defined sodomy, so I assumed that is what you were talking about. I don’t care about connotation; you defined sodomy. I reject sodomy.
I didn’t call you a pro-abortionist, I referred to pro-abortionist in general, just like you referred to anti-abortionists in general.
The purpose of X is Y
If X fails to function then the purpose is still Y not Z.
The biological purpose of our eyes is to see.
The biological purpose of a blind person’s eyes is to see. The biological purpose of eyes do not change to something else because someone loses their eye sight. And that is by God’s design.
The biological purpose of intercourse is procreation, sterile or not.
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Hume
Guest
It’s a fundamental freedom here in America.
Ain’t freedom grand?
Forgive me, I was discussing morality where nothing has been objectively proven.
Your right in that if you think 2+2=5, you’re demonstrably wrong.
I guess you’re still free to think it, but the teacher will still put the big red “X” on the paper.
As a matter of law, yeah. It’s what the masses choose it to be. That’s right.
As more and more people shed their materially indefensible ideas about life, what we’re choosing for our laws is getting much more free. More and more folks are getting the room to be and do as they want. Gay folks are marrying, so on and so forth.
Who knows? Chicken meet egg.
This is why it’s so important to default to liberty when there isn’t a very strong consensus otherwise - like there is on, say, premeditated murder.
Thanks for the comment. I’ve just seen very similarly worded posts out of your side’s camp endure while mine either get edited or deleted.
I get it. Catholic house. But it is the apologetics forum, right? If I were to push my view in the Traditional Catholicism or Catholic Living forums, it would be inappropriate and I’d be a jerk.
If folks think it gets out of hand here, go visit CARM forums. That place is a zoo.
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Hume
Guest
Death isn’t detectable until it happens. It’s still amazing how many young women die in childbirth in America, particularly in Texas among black women. It’s super odd…
Anyway, unwanted kids are a massive poverty driver. I can find some studies on the minimal cost of raising a child to 18 if you’d like. And these unwanted children are usually socially deviant.
A bad choice yields bad fruit.
So important for kids to be raised by the willing than the forced.
No can do. If it’s dangerous, people should have the right to opt out if humanly possible. And pregnancy is unambiguously dangerous.
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HarryStotle
Guest
Read the founding fathers. None claim freedom on its own “is grand.” They speak of ordered liberty founded on individual virtue.HarryStotle:
It’s a fundamental freedom here in America.
Ain’t freedom grand?
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HarryStotle
Guest
In other words “if you do not want to procreate, you have no need to act responsibly with your body because it will be fixed for you by those who underwrite your choice for licentiousness.”
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HarryStotle
Guest
And do not push impose tax-funded whatever on those who do not assent to the opinions you hold, since the right to hold your opinions does not include the right to force others to assent to them.HarryStotle:
I respect your right to hold the opinion you hold. That does not include assent.
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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
Death can’t be detected but complications that result in it can. Sudden and unpredictable deaths resulting from pregnancy are improbable if not impossible.
That’s a reason to fix the foster system and give finicial aid not abortion.
An unlikely risk that one brought upon themselves is a contrived excuse. And since the alternative always results in the death of the fetus, it is easy to see that abortion is worse.
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Rau
Guest
Can you explain - is it the distress to the mother that makes the killing allowable?
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Servant31
Guest
I’m not understanding why you think a child’s life in the womb is “cancellable”. You say it’s part of her body… then why do men pay child support. It’s our responsibility, then it isn’t, then it is again… all at the convenience of the carrier? That’s where we fundamentally disagree, and your debating this on a Catholic site. We very clearly believe life begins at conception. And since it is a life it can’t be canceled. Ones rights dont supersede the others’. So I’m not understanding the debate… your pro choice.
The argument you also made was one of cause and effect. That having sex didn’t consent to having a child. Your consent is automatic by the action. I can’t fire a gun at someone and say I only consented to the loud bang but not the effects of the bullet hitting them. Oh we wore body armor… ok so most of the time the bullet is non fatal… your still responsible.
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Servant31
Guest
Therefore don’t have children. And since we know what causes children don’t engage in causal behaviors…
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MamaJewel
Guest
I respectfully disagree.
Consent to sex is consent to sex. It is not consent to pregnancy, unless one practices “being open to life”, which I can assure you, most Catholics, much less most humans, do not practice.
That said, from your reasoning, a serious car accident I was involved in was my fault, even though I was properly buckled up and just a passenger in the car. However, I still chose to get in the car and thus automatically assumed the responsibility for the accident because riding in a car can result in being in an accident. nope. nada.
Ride in a vehicle and you’ll eventually be in an accident, true, but that does not equal consent to it.
Drive a vehicle and statistically, you’ll likely be the cause of an accident at some point as a driver, but that doesn’t equal consent to a car crash.
Nobody wants to crash their vehicle, unless it’s part of the show down at the dirt track.
If anything, your logic puts the fault on men when it comes to pregnancy, since they are fertile 24/7 (if they happen to be fertile). They are likened to a driver.
Women, however, are fertile 48 hours to 72 hours (being generous with that amount of time) in a cycle. Big difference between the two genders and a fact that is consistently overlooked by society.
Seems to me that we need to put very strict laws in place that hold men responsible for causing an unwanted pregnancy. These women are not getting themselves pregnant and it’s stupid to place the expectation on the gender that carries a new human being for 9 months to pollute her body 24/7 with hormones to prevent pregnancy, considering that she is fertile a relatively short period of time compared to her partner who is fertile all of the time, imho.
That aside, as human beings, we do need to reach a consensus on the abortion issue. An embryo directly derived from two homo sapiens is a human being at the embryonic stage.
We need to figure out where the value of that human being lies because some scientists are chomping at the bit to study human embryos and create human/animal/sheef embryos. In a uterus, an embryo is disposable. Yet in a lab, it is off limits after 14 days. This conflict of interest will erupt into chaos sooner than later as technology advances.
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Rau
Guest
One consents to the possibility of pregnancy. Some do that while accepting they’d never abort, and some do it knowing abortion is available and acceptable to them. For the latter group, each time they have sex (not willing to have a child), they restate in their mind the acceptability of abortion (to themself).
Quite evidently, the ones having sex are responsible for the child, because sex by its nature is ordered in that direction. Male sperm is deposited and by its nature may find and join with an egg. The persons’ wishes make no difference. You can see how this is quite different to driving a car, which by its nature is not ordered to crashes.
Men and women choosing sex equally bare responsibility for each pregnancy.
Stephen168
New member
My law professor used a similar analogy. If you fire a rifle into an area where people normally gather (park, mall), it is your fault if you hit someone, even if that was not your intent. Even if it didn’t seem like there were people in your line of sight. Bullets kill people and the odds of hitting someone are so great you should expect it.
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IsaiahSpirit
Guest
Amen and thank you so much for your diligent support of Evangelium Vitae,
The Gospel of Life opposing the culture of death building a culture of life.
Divine Favor (Grace) certainly leads you to edify The Church,
whereby so many hunger for truth which is Eternal, not an opinion.
~
(1) Why do so many ask The Adversary to turn ‘stone (coldness of heart)’
into bread (earthly need abstinence - physically & a psychological denial
seeming absence of inner conflict for some who rationalize murdering
a human being disguising as an emotional need satisfied)?
(Yes, those who sin in ignorance will receive few stripes, though they deserve
more, but to whom much is given, much is required. False leaders
on the world stage - who have much knowledge, prestige, & such
become ‘white washed stones’ ref. Jeremiah of false peace,
compromising with the culture of death, an abomination before JESUS,
our Lord and our GOD with resolute assertive compassionate Gospel of Life.)
~
(2) Why do so many think that ‘mighty deeds’ leaping off the Pinnacle of The Temple, in the sense so many think compromise with murdering helpless children (or classifying them as non or subhuman, a lie of The Adversary,
since each of us came through the womb), for earthly provisions on a grand scale.
~
(3)Why do so many bow to Caesar & Herod the Fox who show allegiance
to The Adversary in the sense they accompany legalized mass murder of children, and other abominations even seduced to youth & impressionable
in the largely biased world system of education, media, and oligarchical political factions proclaiming these policies and promising to carry them out?
~
We each have irises in our eyes with shades of blue, green, brown, and hazel,
as stained glassed windows. The eye is the lamp of the body,
if it grows dark, how deep is that darkness?
Thank GOD in JESUS The Messiah, who did not teach gradualism for leaders in every venue of society, including The Church who see past the collectivist deception that is so enticing
because it gives a false sense of justice (providing every person his or her due in an orderly way; alongside telling GOD who is worthy of life or not.)
~
Please read from the following link regarding the form of relativism called social constructionism. Immediately below they cite ‘moral relativism.’
So many are not educated in these things and see them as ‘buzz words.’
In places like totalitarian communist China, it is easy to see the oppression
and persecution of JESUS The Beloved Savior - as The Church.
In open propaganda oligarchical faction societies whereby so many do not
see the generational cycle of dependency bureaucracy which links non
reform toward holistic family opportunities to help curb the dependency
for families needing earthly provisions with a culture of death;
~ it is many times difficult to see the oppression.
~
Peace of our Beloved Redeemer JESUS in joyful overflowing abundance,
that surpasses all human understanding be with you and your family,
this Holy Saturday and Resurrection Easter Sunday.
He is Risen, He is Risen, He is Risen indeed!
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The Gospel of Life opposing the culture of death building a culture of life.
Divine Favor (Grace) certainly leads you to edify The Church,
whereby so many hunger for truth which is Eternal, not an opinion.
~
(1) Why do so many ask The Adversary to turn ‘stone (coldness of heart)’
into bread (earthly need abstinence - physically & a psychological denial
seeming absence of inner conflict for some who rationalize murdering
a human being disguising as an emotional need satisfied)?
(Yes, those who sin in ignorance will receive few stripes, though they deserve
more, but to whom much is given, much is required. False leaders
on the world stage - who have much knowledge, prestige, & such
become ‘white washed stones’ ref. Jeremiah of false peace,
compromising with the culture of death, an abomination before JESUS,
our Lord and our GOD with resolute assertive compassionate Gospel of Life.)
~
(2) Why do so many think that ‘mighty deeds’ leaping off the Pinnacle of The Temple, in the sense so many think compromise with murdering helpless children (or classifying them as non or subhuman, a lie of The Adversary,
since each of us came through the womb), for earthly provisions on a grand scale.
~
(3)Why do so many bow to Caesar & Herod the Fox who show allegiance
to The Adversary in the sense they accompany legalized mass murder of children, and other abominations even seduced to youth & impressionable
in the largely biased world system of education, media, and oligarchical political factions proclaiming these policies and promising to carry them out?
~
We each have irises in our eyes with shades of blue, green, brown, and hazel,
as stained glassed windows. The eye is the lamp of the body,
if it grows dark, how deep is that darkness?
Thank GOD in JESUS The Messiah, who did not teach gradualism for leaders in every venue of society, including The Church who see past the collectivist deception that is so enticing
because it gives a false sense of justice (providing every person his or her due in an orderly way; alongside telling GOD who is worthy of life or not.)
~
Please read from the following link regarding the form of relativism called social constructionism. Immediately below they cite ‘moral relativism.’
So many are not educated in these things and see them as ‘buzz words.’
In places like totalitarian communist China, it is easy to see the oppression
and persecution of JESUS The Beloved Savior - as The Church.
In open propaganda oligarchical faction societies whereby so many do not
see the generational cycle of dependency bureaucracy which links non
reform toward holistic family opportunities to help curb the dependency
for families needing earthly provisions with a culture of death;
~ it is many times difficult to see the oppression.
~
Peace of our Beloved Redeemer JESUS in joyful overflowing abundance,
that surpasses all human understanding be with you and your family,
this Holy Saturday and Resurrection Easter Sunday.
He is Risen, He is Risen, He is Risen indeed!
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Abrosz
Guest
You still confuse sex with intercourse. God made sure that for all mammals, except for the Great Apes sex outside the estrus is nonexistent. While for the Great Apes such limitations do not exist. Why do you want to override what God “ordered”?
Nothing is “irresponsible” about choosing ONE aspect over the others. Nothing is irresponsible about choosing the aspect of “moving your leg muscles on a treadmill for exercise” instead of moving them to get from place “A” to place “B”.
Come back to me as soon as you catch me doing THAT.
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goout
Guest
Freedom is not a license to exalt ignorance.Servant31:
I respectfully disagree.
Consent to sex is consent to sex. It is not consent to pregnancy,
A human being is free to act with eyes closed to the consequences of actions. But that ignorance does not in fact free you from consequences. Or from the natural progression of a thing. To assert otherwise is to exalt ignorance over human responsibility.
You can go outside, close your eyes and throw lettuce seeds in the middle of your flowers. You are free to do that. And lettuce will likely grow in your garden. Your exercise of freedom includes the real possibilities that come with that action. The two are not separable.
Freedom is not a license for ignorance.
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