Arguing with a friend about Obamacare

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thistle said:
So your argument is that if a person who does not have health insurance has a serious accident, or needs a heart transplant or gets cancer its just too bad but they should keep quiet and just die.
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What did people do before there was such a thing as health insurance?
 
Lost_Sheep said:
What did people do before there was such a thing as health insurance?
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I don’t know. I’m 64 and wasn’t alive in those days.

Will you now please answer the question I asked you.
In America if a person, for whatever reason, does not have health insurance, will they simply be allowed to die if they have a serious accident, or require a transplant or get cancer?
 
thistle said:
I don’t know. I’m 64 and wasn’t alive in those days.

Will you now please answer the question I asked you.
In America if a person, for whatever reason, does not have health insurance, will they simply be allowed to die if they have a serious accident, or require a transplant or get cancer?
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If it is a serious accident then all hospitals are required to give minimal emergency care regardless of the person’s ability to pay or lack of insurance. If it is a transplant or cancer then they can be refused treatment. Although many hospital will bend over backwards to try to give very liberal payment terms - sort of like charity - but you cannot depend on it.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
If it is a serious accident then all hospitals are required to give minimal emergency care regardless of the person’s ability to pay or lack of insurance. If it is a transplant or cancer then they can be refused treatment. Although many hospital will bend over backwards to try to give very liberal payment terms - sort of like charity - but you cannot depend on it.
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You do know that when a hospital gives care to someone with no access to insurance everyone else who uses the services of that hospital have to pay more for them, right?

Why does it not make more sense for everyone to have access to and pay something towards health insurance to share the burden? Why should some continue to pay nothing while others pay more to cover them?

Why does it not make sense for people to have access to preventative care so that illnesses can be treated BEFORE they become catastrophic and hugely expensive?

I understand the objection to any inclusion of coverage for abortion and to the lack of a conscience clause-but I cannot understand the objection to personal responsibility and treating conditions before the costs go out of control.
 
thistle said:
I don’t know. I’m 64 and wasn’t alive in those days.

Will you now please answer the question I asked you.
In America if a person, for whatever reason, does not have health insurance, will they simply be allowed to die if they have a serious accident, or require a transplant or get cancer?
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Not if some schmuck is willing to pony up the money and pay for it.

Suppose you owned a car but could not afford car insurance (as is required in most states these days). Should someone else be required to pay it for you?
 
Lost_Sheep said:
Not if some schmuck is willing to pony up the money and pay for it.

Suppose you owned a car but could not afford car insurance (as is required in most states these days). Should someone else be required to pay it for you?
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That’s very compassionate of you comparing a person’s life to a car. If I’m ever in an accident I hope you are not the first one on the scene!
 
Son_of_Jonah said:
I was trying to explain how the law was unconstitutional in light of the Supreme Court’s decision today regarding the Affordable Care Act, and he raised the objection that people have been paying for things since the beginning of United States History that are morally objectionable, and as examples he raised capital punishment, war, and the draft as examples. He says that Catholics will simply have to deal with the Law of the Land as those who object with other aspects of ethics have had to do in the past.

How can I answer these objections in a way consistent with Catholic teaching? I know that there is a fundamental difference, but I’m having difficulty explaining what it is, exactly. Any help would be much appreciated!

God Bless
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Just ask your fiend if he or she was out of a job and couldnt get health insurance how they would feel having to pay tax on top of your already bad luck. Its like adding insult to injury
 
Link0126 said:
Who even cares about health insurance? I NEVER use it, doctors are useless. Have they actually CURED you of anything? of course they haven’t. They just give you pills (ie. chemicals) that they got via kickbacks from pretty pharmaceutical reps. I suppose for emergency treatment a hospital is important, but if you actually have any kind of on-going health problem what good are they? However, now the government has taken it upon itself to allocate a portion of my salary to private health insurance whether I want it or not, and whether I would rather use the money for something else based on my personal priorities.
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Doctors (and nurses) saved my daughter when she was born 10.5 weeks too early. Today she is healthy. With our doctors she’d be dead. I call that cured. Doctors fixed my son’s adenoid issue. Again, over, done, cured.

Yes, I take pills for a chronic condition. Frankly, I think it is great that such a thing is possible. That setup costs me a few dollars a month for my generic brand meds, so a pretty drug rep factors no where into any decisions. As for not being able to cure my chronic condition, well medicine is not magic. Every day they know more, but the body is fairly complicated.

Lastly, why should anyone pay any attention to your opinion or experience. You’ve negated the value of everyone else’s opinion and experiences. What makes yours more important?
 
The whole health care situation in the US seems incredibly complex to me and so I don’t pretend to understand it and don’t think “Obamacare” is anything like the healthcare systems that other industrialised countries have (what many Americans call “socialised medicine” (!!!???)

I’m just so darned thankful I live in one of these countries - our health care system is very like the NHS in Great Britain.
Public health is funded by our taxes, and we are taxed according to our income level. Here, the rich pay MORE tax than the poor! I don’t even think about what I pay (about 25% I think) and I don’t begrudge it, that’s for sure.
Last year I needed a total hysterectomy, had a 5 day hospital stay in a single room (with an ensuite) in a public hospital, and did not have to go on a long waiting list. I received exceptional care and it cost me nothing (up front - just indirectly via my taxes).
I COULD possibly afford to take out private health insurance (this is not related to employment, but like taking out car insurance) - and this will gain one a shorter waiting time for elective surgery like hip replacements because you can get it done in a private hospital. But I know that if I, or anyone else, NEEDS hospital treatment urgently (accidents, cancer) the public health system will deal with it speedily and more than adequately.

I would think it unChristian not to care about the health of those unable to afford it.

But as I said at the beginning, US healthcare is not something I pretend to understand so I can’t be critical about it for that reason.
 
Z1Z2 said:
Doctors (and nurses) saved my daughter when she was born 10.5 weeks too early. Today she is healthy. With our doctors she’d be dead. I call that cured. Doctors fixed my son’s adenoid issue. Again, over, done, cured.

Yes, I take pills for a chronic condition. Frankly, I think it is great that such a thing is possible. That setup costs me a few dollars a month for my generic brand meds, so a pretty drug rep factors no where into any decisions. As for not being able to cure my chronic condition, well medicine is not magic. Every day they know more, but the body is fairly complicated.

Lastly, why should anyone pay any attention to your opinion or experience. You’ve negated the value of everyone else’s opinion and experiences. What makes yours more important?
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that’s what I’m saying for emergency surgery they’ll do alright. Anything they can get you to pay for. For chronic conditions they’ll just give you pills, and get kick backs for prescribing certain ones. Some ppl love their pills. Hey, keep doing what your doing and just pop one of those bad boys every morning. Can’t beat that… Of course, that only treats the symptoms and usually causes additional problems, possibly cancer in the long run. Do you know how many diesases they say “there is no cure for”. Like every single one. When is the last time a disease was actually cured, polio in the 1920’s? I’m not talking about once a day pill treatments. All the money pumped into these places and the donations to “race for the cure”? I never donate to cancer research. They will just develop a pill and then sell it back to us at insane prices. Besides, there are already cures for cancer they just don’t involve patented drugs.

I saw doctors for 10 years for a chronic condition, they never helped me. wasted my money on useless tests and drugs which caused side effects. I had to spend years educating myself and tweaking my diet to figure out how to cure myself. Doctors are not trained in this at all, IMO they are pill pushers. I am still in the process but way better than I have been in a decade and without the “help” of any doctor.

I know we can’t give medical advice that’s why I’m speaking generally without specifics. This is simply my opinion and my experience dealing with the medical industry.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
Not if some schmuck is willing to pony up the money and pay for it.

Suppose you owned a car but could not afford car insurance (as is required in most states these days). Should someone else be required to pay it for you?
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Here is the difference. If you couldn’t afford car insurance, you could get rid of the car, ride your bike, take the bus, get a ride, or walk.

Health insurance is not the same thing. Any of could have an unexpected catastrophe. What if you were lying in the street with your arm crushed. If you didn’t have insurance, would you want to just lie there and get no help at all? If they rush you to the emergency room, it is true that the hospital will have to treat you. However, this raises the cost for people who already have health insurance. It is much more fair for everyone to pay their fair share. The USA is just about the only country in the world that didn’t have some kind of mandatory health coverage (until Obamacare, that is).

I’m delighted that the Supreme Court upheld the law, since I get very tired of judges who legislate from the bench. It is much better for Congress to fix the parts of the law that turn out to be unworkable.

I should also mention that I’m past 65, and I love my Medicare!
 
Listener said:
I should also mention that I’m past 65, and I love my Medicare!/QUOTE

who doesn’t like getting something for free? You’re 65 and on medicare so what do you care about mandatory insurance? It’s the young people that will suffer for this. They’ll see soon enough, all their cheering for Obama, they’ll see. You I can understand, if I were you I’d be living it up as well. But these young people are just naive. I wish I was 65 and on medicare.
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Lost_Sheep said:
What did people do before there was such a thing as health insurance?
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They still went to doctors and hospitals and paid out of pocket, or were taken on as charity patients. But prices were cheaper because nobody had insurance, and there was nobody else to pay the bill. I came across a hospital bill of my father’s from the 1940’s when he was in the hospital for ten days for hernia surgery. The charges were something like this: Hospital, 10 days @ 75 cents/day =$7.50, plus operating room charge of $2.50. Total $10.00.
 
thistle said:
I’m British and don’t understand the big argument about healthcare in the US.

From what I read 50 million Americans have no healthcare insurance. Is that correct?
If so, what happens, for example, if one of them has a serious car accident or gets cancer? Do they not get treatment?
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There’s more to it than just being able to pay for health insurance. In the USA health insurance has been a for profit business, and insurance companies will make some decisions to try to maximize those profits. One such decision is that they don’t want to offer coverage for what are considered pre-existing conditions.

For example, up until now if your doctor suspected you had a certain heart condition it would be to your advantage to not get it confirmed. Once its confirmed it becomes a pre-existing condition and problems that stem from it later in life might not be covered. In general it is easier to get an insurance policy through an employer for some situations.

The affordable health care act contributes to bringing policies like that to an end.
 
Link0126 said:
Listener;9469036:
I should also mention that I’m past 65, and I love my Medicare!
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No, you don’t. You think the elderly get “Cadillac” care? You’re kidding yourself. A lot of doctors aren’t even taking new Medicare patients b/c they get paid next to nothing from the government for anything they do in the office or hospital. It amounts to doing charity work.

And guess what, under Obamacare, we’re ALL going to have the equivalent of Medicare! Substandard care for all!

:nope:
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Link0126 said:
Listener;9469036:
I should also mention that I’m past 65, and I love my Medicare!
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Medicare is far from free. Yes, it is true that we don’t pay a premium for Medicare Part A, which is the hospital insurance. That was covered by working all of those years and paying the Medicare Tax. Part B costs around $100 per month per person, which is taken out of our meager Social Security checks every month. That’s $100 for myself and $100 for my husband. In addition, we need some private insurance to make up for what Medicare doesn’t cover. This costs us a few hundred a month more. I think we paid something in the neighborhood of $6,000 in insurance premiums last year.

Then there were the huge co-payments for our pills, because some of them don’t exist in generic form yet. All in all, we paid more than 7.5 percent of our income on medical insurance and other expenses.

Then why do I love it so much? Because they can’t cancel us!!! We would be living on the street right now if we had to pay for the various surgeries we had to have in the past several years.

On the contrary, I do care about young people. It doesn’t seem fair that I had to wait until I was 65 years old to get wonderful coverage like this. It bothers me when younger people have to have their homes foreclosed because of medical bills. Medical bills can bankrupt you in a hurry, unless you’re a billionaire.
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In my view this decision of the Supreme Court is worse than any since Roe vs. Wade.

It means the U.S. Supreme Court has lived up to its status as being unelected activist individuals empowered to do the work of the devil through appointments and with the sanction of the Constitution.

Because of their tyranny, this Court has sanctioned the death of many hundreds of millions of lives.

It is also responsible for the U.S. Civil War when again it was on the wrong side of the issue and ruled that Northerners must give up their rights and turn over runaway slaves to Southern interests in the Dred Scott decision.

The worst part of this recent decision is that with government support comes government power. Now that the government is involved, your lives are utterly subject to whatever they come up with, considering the taxpayers have to pay for it!
 
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