Arguing with a Protestant?

[chero23]

You do of course realize that Jesus established the Church to administer his sacraments and to teach the truth about salvation, right? And you also realize that it was that same church that created the Bible you use through divine inspiration, right? And you also realize that Jesus said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (Matthew 16) and that He would be with it until the end of the age, right?
And yes, the Church has seen its share of corruption. In fact, the first Pope denied Jesus three times. But its never been about the personal sanctity of the Popes, but about the sanctity of Jesus. And all the Popes, regardless of their personal holiness, have taught the Truth and have kept Church Doctrine pure. If you study the Church fathers, you will see the same teachings in 100AD as in the present and you can trace the lineage from the current Pope to St. Peter and Then Jesus himself…

You see, ultimately you get what you know about God and salvation from the Church. In your case, you see it through the lens of Lutheran Tradition. Because the source of this Tradition is a man, Martin Luther, the lens is a little blurry and some of the Truth is obscured. You can get the full clarity of the Truth only through the Catholic Tradition which came directly from the Apostles and was the basis on which the Bible was written.

To give you some concrete examples of how the Truth has been obscured, lets look at a few core Lutheran Doctrines. Lets start with Sola Scriptura because its the basis for Lutheran teaching and its so easy to discredit. You see, if all you needed to get to the Truth is to read scripture, then everyone who read it would come to the same conclusions. This is obviously not true. In fact, everyone understand scripture through the lens of their own Faith Traditions. As a Catholic, for instance, I would interpret James 2:17–> So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead
as meaning that you need to have faith as well as works to gain salvation. As a Lutheran, you have been taught that Faith alone is required for salvation so you must interpret this verse differently. This is a clear example of how Church Tradition is fundamental to Bible interpretation and nullifies the argument for Sola Scriptura. This example also shows the weakness of the Lutheran intepretation since it militates against the clear reading of scripture. This is not to say that their isn’t some Truth in the Lutheran view. Indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that to get into the state of Grace requires only the Faith to become baptized and that prior works are not a requirement… Where Lutheranism deviates from the truth is that by claiming salvation is by Faith alone, it fails to recognize that to stay in the state of grace, you must do the works of God and avoid Mortal sin. This is why St. Paul made such a point of saying that Love is more important than Faith in 1corinthians 13. In his definition, Love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return (i.e, a synonym for charity).

Amen. Sola Scriptura is the Protestant answer when arguing with us Catholics. They try to reinvent the wheel. They try to tell the Church who through divine inspiration compiled the Bible how their wrong and their right, although their Church was started by man. Protestants also don’t understand that for almost 400 yrs, the early Christians didn’t have the entire Bible put together. They did as Jesus told his Apostles to speak of the word of God. Paul even instructs that the Tradition that he has passed orally or written should be respected.

 

[irisfromohio]

To give you some concrete examples of how the Truth has been obscured, lets look at a few core Lutheran Doctrines. Lets start with Sola Scriptura because its the basis for Lutheran teaching and its so easy to discredit. You see, if all you needed to get to the Truth is to read scripture, then everyone who read it would come to the same conclusions. This is obviously not true. In fact, everyone understand scripture through the lens of their own Faith Traditions. As a Catholic, for instance, I would interpret James 2:17–> So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead
as meaning that you need to have faith as well as works to gain salvation. As a Lutheran, you have been taught that Faith alone is required for salvation so you must interpret this verse differently. This is a clear example of how Church Tradition is fundamental to Bible interpretation and nullifies the argument for Sola Scriptura. This example also shows the weakness of the Lutheran intepretation since it militates against the clear reading of scripture. This is not to say that their isn’t some Truth in the Lutheran view. Indeed, the Catholic Church teaches that to get into the state of Grace requires only the Faith to become baptized and that prior works are not a requirement… Where Lutheranism deviates from the truth is that by claiming salvation is by Faith alone, it fails to recognize that to stay in the state of grace, you must do the works of God and avoid Mortal sin. This is why St. Paul made such a point of saying that Love is more important than Faith in 1corinthians 13. In his definition, Love is doing things for others without expecting anything in return (i.e, a synonym for charity).

Just two weeks ago, I had a discussion with someone on Facebook over this very point. He told me that when you read the word “works” in the Bible, that it means “Laws”. That simple. He said that I didn’t know that because I have essentially been brainwashed by the Catholic Church and simply parroting the spin that I had been given. He also said that I know nothing about Aramaic Hebrew or Greek. So I asked him where he learned those languages and he changed the subject. In fact, every time I questioned where he was given all of his wisdom, he would hem, haw and move on to another question that had nothing to do with anything spoken before. Finally, he asked me who was my savior, Jesus or the Church. I answered, “Jesus, of course.” And he decided to leave me alone. I think he was intimidated by some of my educated answers and when he would ask me where in the Bible was there support for what I said, I would produce. I think he found this frustrating.

One thing I must give credit to 4tytwo is that I should change my CA moniker to “FITTY NAYN”. That would be good, yes? Even better: FITTY NAYN YR OLE BROAD!

 

[4tytwo]

Just two weeks ago, I had a discussion with someone on Facebook over this very point.

The fact that someone interpreted the scripture diffrent from you should not make you judgemental but tell him with your love of the scriptures what it means to you.
if you live your faith but do not act upon it it is clearly dead. However all the good deads in the world can not grant you salvation if not acompanied by faith. Would it not be worse to do good deeds in the name of evil to convince others to follow evil? This is why faith alone is the critical element to salvation. you may have faith but fear for your own life might prevent you from doing a good deed. Would this deny you salvation?
In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell. They even used it as a business model.
In the end it is the behaviour of the church that is to be judged by the scripture, not the scripture to be judged by the church.

Talking about scripture, if you read the passage of the miracle of Canaan in Greek you will notice the use of the word gegenēmenon based on the word ginomai “to come into being” thus in its past tense form would mean “the water that had to become wine” and not that “had become wine”.

 

[irisfromohio]

The fact that someone interpreted the scripture diffrent from you should not make you judgemental but tell him with your love of the scriptures what it means to you.
if you live your faith but do not act upon it it is clearly dead. However all the good deads in the world can not grant you salvation if not acompanied by faith. Would it not be worse to do good deeds in the name of evil to convince others to follow evil? This is why faith alone is the critical element to salvation. you may have faith but fear for your own life might prevent you from doing a good deed. Would this deny you salvation?
In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell. They even used it as a business model.
In the end it is the behaviour of the church that is to be judged by the scripture, not the scripture to be judged by the church.

Talking about scripture, if you read the passage of the miracle of Canaan in Greek you will notice the use of the word gegenēmenon based on the word ginomai “to come into being” thus in its past tense form would mean “the water that had to become wine” and not that “had become wine”.

Where did I say I was judgmental? We had a discussion on Facebook and I simply related the nature of the discussion. And we ended on an amicable note , because he accepted what I said at the beginning, that we have the most important thing in common: Our devotion and love for Jesus Christ. Moreover, the discussion with this man created a real friendship, because I, for one, appreciate his concern for the salvation of my soul. He is a nice, Christ loving man. Sometimes I feel you are not reading what people write at all. How do you come by the “fact” that the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithful not out of love, but by instilling fear?. I have heard quite a few tent preachers and members of the Westgate Baptist Church do that, but since I have been in the Catholic Church, I have felt nothing but love.

I guess I see why you have some skewed interpretations of Sacred Scripture, because you not only veer from the heart of messages, you completely butcher it by putting ideas out there, attributing them to me (and others) without acknowledging what was truly being said.

But I still want to be known as “Fitty Nayn”

 

[4tytwo]

Where did I say I was judgmental? We had a discussion on Facebook and I simply related the nature of the discussion. And we ended on an amicable note , because he accepted what I said at the beginning, that we have the most important thing in common: Our devotion and love for Jesus Christ. Moreover, the discussion with this man created a real friendship, because I, for one, appreciate his concern for the salvation of my soul. He is a nice, Christ loving man. Sometimes I feel you are not reading what people write at all. How do you come by the “fact” that the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithful not out of love, but by instilling fear?. I have heard quite a few tent preachers and members of the Westgate Baptist Church do that

do not worry, no church has a monopoly of bad behaviour Just the bigger the instution the more of a problem it becomes and the fearmongering was one of the reasons for the split in the reformation. I have to admit that some of the US churches try to outdo all others in that respect.

I guess I see why you have some skewed interpretations of Sacred Scripture, because you not only veer from the heart of messages, you completely butcher it by putting ideas out there, attributing them to me (and others) without acknowledging what was truly being said.

But I still want to be known as “Fitty Nayn”

you said that you felt him to be intimidated by your educated answers. If I write about somone who is my “real friend” I would not have chosen to make it sound like I bragg about his uneducated interpretation

Now I do not think I skew the interpretation of the sacred scripture but try to see the reason in it and I surely would not attribute those ideas to you nor attemting to butcher it. I am more into Neurosurgery. Do you think the understanding of the word of God is better if it reveals a concord between its message and reason or if it does not show coherence with reason?

 

[PRmerger]

Finally, he asked me who was my savior, Jesus or the Church. I answered, “Jesus, of course.”

Loved how you related your faith to your friend on Facebook!

Regarding the above question he posed to you: of course all who are saved are saved only through Jesus.

However, it is a false dichotomy to ask about Jesus or the Church. For you can’t have one without the other. There can be no Jesus-Alone mentality for there is NO WAY anyone can know what Jesus proclaimed/revealed…

except through the Catholic Church.

Jesus is the Head.
The Catholic Church is His Body.

Jesus without the Church is a bodyless Head.
The Church without Jesus is a decapitated Body.

All Christians need both to fully live the Christian life.

 

[PRmerger]

The fact that someone interpreted the scripture diffrent from you should not make you judgemental but tell him with your love of the scriptures what it means to you.

Please don’t be judgmental and proclaim here that someone is being judgmental. (At least, if you think judging is wrong.)

if you live your faith but do not act upon it it is clearly dead. However all the good deads in the world can not grant you salvation if not acompanied by faith.

This is very Catholic of you to say!

This is why faith alone is the critical element to salvation.

This is an un-biblical doctrine. It is man-made in that you have only heard a pastor preach it, who heard another pastor preach it…but no one ever read that in a single page of the Bible.

In fact, the only place where “faith alone” is mentioned in the Bible is where it is REJECTED!!

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

…NOT by faith alone.

you may have faith but fear for your own life might prevent you from doing a good deed. Would this deny you salvation?

Can you give an example of someone who could live his entire life in fear of doing something for Christ who is in heaven?

In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell.

Be careful, 4tytwo. This is bordering on “contempt for Catholicism”, something that is against the CAFs rules.

It would be a shame for you to get banned. It is good for you to be here and dialogue with faithful, knowledgeable Catholics.

Incidentally, if you are against teaching about hell, then you are against Christ’s teachings.

For no one taught more about hell than Jesus himself.

Did you know that?

They even used it as a business model.

Source, please.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just two weeks ago, I had a discussion with someone on Facebook over this very point. He told me that when you read the word “works” in the Bible, that it means “Laws”. That simple. He said that I didn’t know that because I have essentially been brainwashed by the Catholic Church and simply parroting the spin that I had been given. He also said that I know nothing about Aramaic Hebrew or Greek. So I asked him where he learned those languages and he changed the subject. In fact, every time I questioned where he was given all of his wisdom, he would hem, haw and move on to another question that had nothing to do with anything spoken before. Finally, he asked me who was my savior, Jesus or the Church. I answered, “Jesus, of course.” And he decided to leave me alone. I think he was intimidated by some of my educated answers and when he would ask me where in the Bible was there support for what I said, I would produce. I think he found this frustrating.

There are people who object to something without really knowing fully why they do so. That seems to be the cases of many posters here in CAF especially some who object to Catholicism. They would move from one accusation to another without being able to defend or justify their objections. It seems to be the trend but probably you are right - they most probably genuinely don’t believe in Catholicism perhaps from information they pick up from non-Catholic sources, so when a Catholic is able to answer them word for word, they are not prepared for that.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems to be the trend but probably you are right - they most probably genuinely don’t believe in Catholicism perhaps from information they pick up from non-Catholic sources, so when a Catholic is able to answer them word for word, they are not prepared for that.

Yes.

And there is a certain population of CAFs posters who proclaim all sorts of misinformation regarding the Catholic Church who love to give their misinformation credibility by saying that they were taught this during “12 years in Catholic school” plus they were an altar server and went to daily mass!

No doubt that most of these ex-Catholics did these things, but that does not give credence to their false understanding of Catholicism. Either they are remembering what they were taught incorrectly, or, more likely, were indeed poorly catechized.

The Church in the past did a very dismal job providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. :sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

if you live your faith but do not act upon it it is clearly dead.

How can one “live their faith but do not act upon it”?

However all the good deads in the world can not grant you salvation if not acompanied by faith.

I would say that good deeds do not grant us salvation even if they are accompanied by faith.

  This is why faith alone is the critical element to salvation. you may have faith but fear for your own life might prevent you from doing a good deed. Would this deny you salvation?

Faith without works is a dead faith. This is why the CC never teaches about “faith alone”, because saving faith is always accompanied by good works. It is never “alone”.

 In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell. They even used it as a business model.

This is quite a scathing assertion, 4tytwo. Now you will h ave to back it up by producing Church documents that substantiate it. If you fail to do this, then you will appear to be producing calumnies.

In the end it is the behaviour of the church that is to be judged by the scripture, not the scripture to be judged by the church.

Can you show us the Scripture verse that summarizes this point?

Talking about scripture, if you read the passage of the miracle of Canaan in Greek you will notice the use of the word gegenēmenon based on the word ginomai "to come into being" thus in its past tense form would mean "the water that had to become wine" and not that "had become wine".

This is off topic.

 

[guanophore]

 Where did I say I was judgmental?

You didn’t but the thread title seems to indicate that the interaction was not productive. Debate, Conversation, Dialogue, all have a more positive connotation than “argue”, which gives the sense that nothing productive occurred.

Sometimes I feel you are not reading what people write at all.

I think that particular member may be much more invested in putting his own private revelations across to us, than concerned about what anyone else thinks.

How do you come by the “fact” that the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithful not out of love, but by instilling fear?.

I am most anxious to learn the source of this anti-Catholic polemic as well.

I guess I see why you have some skewed interpretations of Sacred Scripture, because you not only veer from the heart of messages, you completely butcher it by putting ideas out there, attributing them to me (and others) without acknowledging what was truly being said.

This can also be a sign if mental illness.

 

[paul_c]

The fact that someone interpreted the scripture diffrent from you should not make you judgemental but tell him with your love of the scriptures what it means to you.

Don’t you realize that this comment is a complete indictment of the core Lutheran concept of Sola Scriptura? You see, two people interpreted Scripture differently. If you could learn the faith solely from scripture, this would not be possible. Further, look what you are proposing. You are telling him to say what scripture means to YOU. Can’t you see that in doing so, you are advocating making scripture mean whatever you want it to mean? Even to the point of saying that James really didn’t mean what he said about in the second chapter of his epistle about faith without works being dead. Instead of trying to figure it out on our own, we need to believe the Church when it tells us what Scripture really means. Afterall, the Catholic church wrote the scriptures so it is the only legitimate source of interpretation.

if you live your faith but do not act upon it it is clearly dead. However all the good deads in the world can not grant you salvation if not acompanied by faith. Would it not be worse to do good deeds in the name of evil to convince others to follow evil? This is why faith alone is the critical element to salvation. you may have faith but fear for your own life might prevent you from doing a good deed. Would this deny you salvation?

Again, why don’t you believe St. James? He clearly said Faith without works is dead. Why would you believe Luther instead? Why is he more credible than a man that learned the Truths about salvation from the very lips of Jesus Christ? And what about St. Paul, who said in 1Corinthians 13 that if you have faith enough to move mountains but don’t have love, you are nothing? Now you are right in that works without faith is equally worthless for salvation. But you are wrong in thinking that simply saying you believe but never acting on those beliefs for any reason will result in your salvation. Re-read James 2 to verify this,

In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell. They even used it as a business model.

I would recommend approaching this differently. You are accepting caricatures of the Catholic Church as the gospel truth without going to the Church to find out what it really teaches. You are being mislead. In fact, the Church teaches that the only way to heaven is to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. And yes, the church also teaches that the wages of sin is death. It is compelled to do so because that is a core teaching of Jesus. You see, we all have free will, reason and conscience to use in life. If we chose to do the will of the father, we will go to heaven. But if we chose to oppose that will by sinning, we will be condemned. Both points need to be made for the benefit of souls.

In the end it is the behaviour of the church that is to be judged by the scripture, not the scripture to be judged by the church.

Frankly, this is wrong on so many levels. First of all, when deciding what books belonged in the Bible, the Church did indeed judge scripture. The criteria used was:

1. was it Apostolic
2. was it consistent with the teachings of the Church
3. was it universally recognized.
   And using this criteria, the canon of the bible was defined by Pope St. Damasus in 382, and he subsequently put St. Jerome to the task of translating all these books into the Latin vulgate.

Secondly, the bible is a book and can not judge anything. Jesus is the judge. and some in the Church will undoubtedly be condemned. But the Church is the body of Christ and as such, it follows the will of its head, regardless of the sins of those within it.

Talking about scripture, if you read the passage of the miracle of Canaan in Greek you will notice the use of the word gegenēmenon based on the word ginomai “to come into being” thus in its past tense form would mean “the water that had to become wine” and not that “had become wine”.

Why do you suppose your translation skills are better than those of the professional scholars? And why do you think that water “coming into being” wine should be translated " had to become wine? Be careful about reinterpreting scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[paul_c]

This can also be a sign if mental illness.

I think this was unnecessary and uncharitable.

 

[guanophore]

I think this was unnecessary and uncharitable.

It was not intended to be. Having a mental illness is not a “fault”. This is just a modern stigma that has no basis in anything other than prejudice.

But we must exercise discernment when people claim private revelation. Ruling out MI in cases of visions, manifestations, and locutions is part of what the Church does! This is why all private revelations are to be judged by the Church. We are not to automatically accept a claimed private revelation when it has not been scrutinized, and determined to be authentic by the authority that has been appointed to do so (the Church).

Mental illness can be responsible for skewed understanding of the Scriptures, skewed perceptions of ones environment and others (or the nature of the Church).

 

[4tytwo]

How can one “live their faith but do not act upon it”?

I would say that good deeds do not grant us salvation even if they are accompanied by faith.

nothing will grant you salvation anyhow unless you uphold it to the end.

Faith without works is a dead faith. This is why the CC never teaches about “faith alone”, because saving faith is always accompanied by good works. It is never “alone”.

THat would therefore exclude andy type of “deathbed conversion” as by that time it would be too late to reach salvation. However it is promised to by saved by faith even if you have no more time to do any good deeds - or would you deny this?

This is quite a scathing assertion, 4tytwo. Now you will h ave to back it up by producing Church documents that substantiate it. If you fail to do this, then you will appear to be producing calumnies.

I said in my other post that it is not a monopoly of the catholic church. Thre are others even wose but the emphasis of the fer of hell is clearly an aproach that is contrary to the aim of loving God as you can not truely love out of fear. I would think Westborough Bapstist Church is probably your best example but to my knowledge they have not yet sold indulgences. In the end the problem is not church basedbot even manifest in Pascals wager which fails for the same reason.

Can you show us the Scripture verse that summarizes this point?

try Luke 20:46

This is off topic.

That is what my original argument was about

 

[PRmerger]

nothing will grant you salvation anyhow unless you uphold it to the end.

This is very Catholic!

THat would therefore exclude andy type of “deathbed conversion” as by that time it would be too late to reach salvation. However it is promised to by saved by faith even if you have no more time to do any good deeds - or would you deny this?

Ah, so you are talking about a particular type of faith: that which is attained upon one’s deathbed.

As the majority of us never have this type of experience, what of the rest of us?

 

[PRmerger]

There are others even wose but the emphasis of the fer of hell is clearly an aproach that is contrary to the aim of loving God as you can not truely love out of fear

There is no more emphasis on “fear of hell” than the Scriptures emphasize. The Catholic Church doesn’t perseverate on this truth, nor does she dismiss it. She gets it just right.

I would think Westborough Bapstist Church is probably your best example but to my knowledge they have not yet sold indulgences.

The selling of indulgences? Really?

try Luke 20:46

This appears to be a random verse that does not support your premise at all. Could you please explain what you mean?

 

[guanophore]

nothing will grant you salvation anyhow unless you uphold it to the end.

You did not answer the question, 4tytwo. I am also beginning to wonder about your ability to understand what you are reading.

THat would therefore exclude andy type of “deathbed conversion” as by that time it would be too late to reach salvation. However it is promised to by saved by faith even if you have no more time to do any good deeds - or would you deny this?

No, people that die after baptism, whether they are infants or sick or elders can only do what they can do. Even the thief on the cross, though did good works before he died.

The point is that saving faith is faith that works. It is never “alone”. It is always accompanied by love and hope.

I said in my other post that it is not a monopoly of the catholic church. Thre are others even wose but the emphasis of the fer of hell is clearly an aproach that is contrary to the aim of loving God as you can not truely love out of fear.

You have not risen to the challenge 4ty two. Unless you are just here to register calumnies agaist the Church, you need to provide some documentation to support your assertion.

Please prove that the CC has an “emphasis on fear”. Use official documents please.

I would think Westborough Bapstist Church is probably your best example but to my knowledge they have not yet sold indulgences. In the end the problem is not church basedbot even manifest in Pascals wager which fails for the same reason.

I am seriously wondering now about your thought process. The gears of the cogs do not seem to come together in your mind, so you are unable to represent a cogent thought.

Here is what you said:

Originally Posted by 4tytwo
In fact the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to force people to become faithfull not out of love of God but by instilling fear of hell. They even used it as a business model.

Then I asked you to show, using Catholic documents, that this is true. And you bring up a Baptist Church as an example?

try Luke 20:46

Luke 20:46-47
46 "Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and love salutations in the market places and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts,

No, 4tytwo, this verse does not say anything about how “In the end it is the behaviour of the church that is to be judged by the scripture, not the scripture to be judged by the church.” Try again.
4tytwo;10162151:

That is what my original argument was about

Yes. Your whole arguement is a significant departure from the OP.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Yes.

And there is a certain population of CAFs posters who proclaim all sorts of misinformation regarding the Catholic Church who love to give their misinformation credibility by saying that they were taught this during “12 years in Catholic school” plus they were an altar server and went to daily mass!

No doubt that most of these ex-Catholics did these things, but that does not give credence to their false understanding of Catholicism. Either they are remembering what they were taught incorrectly, or, more likely, were indeed poorly catechized.

The Church in the past did a very dismal job providing nourishing catechesis to her flock. :sad_yes:

That is sadly true. Whenever anyone says they were taught by nuns (and they probably weren’t, nuns are cloistered like monks, so they were taught by sisters religious, if at all), went to parochial school, was an altar server, etc., etc. as if that is proof of their knowledge of Catholic doctrine…you just have to sigh.

 

[irisfromohio]

Loved how you related your faith to your friend on Facebook!

Regarding the above question he posed to you: of course all who are saved are saved only through Jesus.

However, it is a false dichotomy to ask about Jesus or the Church. For you can’t have one without the other. There can be no Jesus-Alone mentality for there is NO WAY anyone can know what Jesus proclaimed/revealed…

except through the Catholic Church.

Jesus is the Head.
The Catholic Church is His Body.

Jesus without the Church is a bodyless Head.
The Church without Jesus is a decapitated Body.

All Christians need both to fully live the Christian life.

I will ALWAYS defer to your superior knowledge, wisdom and prose. And you are right, Christ and His bride are one. But I was trying to speak in a way that the particular non Catholic person would relate. It satisfied him that “Catholics are Christians”.

BTW, OHIO STATE BUCKEYES WERE UNDEFEATED IN 2012 They were simply, unjustly persecuted for something extremely trivial, because East Coast media has a grudge against Ohio State and Michigan. Then again, Notre Dame? Can you say “Divine Providence”?