Argument against Deism

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Roscoe_Turner said:
Why does a perfect Being need a relationship or our faith or love,etc ?
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He doesn’t. God doesn’t need a relationship or our faith for He is infinitely perfect. However, a relationship with Him is really a benefit for us, for He is love, happiness, and our salvation.

He desires our love and faith in Him, only for our benefit.
 
chrsbrosky said:
He doesn’t. God doesn’t need a relationship or our faith for He is infinitely perfect. However, a relationship with Him is really a benefit for us, for He is love, happiness, and our salvation.

He desires our love and faith in Him, only for our benefit.
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I appriciate both your answers but it only talks around it. Maybe that’s the best we can do. Why does a perfect being create anything? Love is often the answer but if He’s perfect there is no need for anything, no need to create. If perfect love creates why isn’t there more of it?
 
Roscoe

**If perfect love creates why isn’t there more of it? **

More of what? :confused:
 
Roscoe

**If our existence is a byproduct of His infinate love why is it limited to Earth? Shouldn’t it be everywhere? **

Such as? :confused:
 
Roscoe

**Throughout the Solar System for a start. **

God’s infinite love includes creating the Solar System.

Are you suggesting God should have populated every planet in the universe to prove his infinite love? :confused:
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe

**Throughout the Solar System for a start. **

God’s infinite love includes creating the Solar System.

Are you suggesting God should have populated every planet in the universe to prove his infinite love? :confused:
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No, If our existence is because of God’s infinite love then that love should extend out farther than the earth. Life should be the norm rather than the exception. Not to prove anything to anyone but rather it couldn’t help but be. It’s infinite love.
 
Roscoe
**
No, If our existence is because of God’s infinite love then that love should extend out farther than the earth. Life should be the norm rather than the exception. Not to prove anything to anyone but rather it couldn’t help but be. It’s infinite love. **

I suppose infinite love could be directed at one planet as well as a million?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe
**
No, If our existence is because of God’s infinite love then that love should extend out farther than the earth. Life should be the norm rather than the exception. Not to prove anything to anyone but rather it couldn’t help but be. It’s infinite love. **

I suppose infinite love could be directed at one planet as well as a million?
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Falls short of infinite don’t you think. If it’s directed, it is being limited - the Earth is finite.
 
Roscoe

**Falls short of infinite don’t you think. If it’s directed, it is being limited - the Earth is finite. **

So is the universe! 😃
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe

**Falls short of infinite don’t you think. If it’s directed, it is being limited - the Earth is finite. **

So is the universe! 😃
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Yes, but it is the total of creation as we know it. So wouldn’t the love fill creation. Life seems to be the exception rather than the rule. In our small corner of the Universe we are the only planet with life. So if His love brings forth life, where else is it?
 
Roscoe

**So if His love brings forth life, where else is it? **

Maybe we are it. What may seem to you a monumental waste of space and stars and planets and time may be for God just a week’s work. Who’s to say? 😃
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe

**So if His love brings forth life, where else is it? **

Maybe we are it. What may seem to you a monumental waste of space and stars and planets and time may be for God just a week’s work. Who’s to say? 😃
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It’s similar to your critique of Deism “Why create a world that He turns His back on” Why create a whole Universe to populate one planet. They both seem to be lacking in the same way.
 
Roscoe

**Falls short of infinite don’t you think. If it’s directed, it is being limited - the Earth is finite. **

So is the universe. Let’s not make this a broken record. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Roscoe

**Falls short of infinite don’t you think. If it’s directed, it is being limited - the Earth is finite. **

So is the universe. Let’s not make this a broken record. 😉
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Yes we covered that.

So one hand we have:

The Christian view we have a God that creates an imperfect world with imperfect beings that He has a personal relationship placed in a vast Universe in which the Earth is but a speck. A universe that is estimated to be 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years old, a planet 4.54 billion years old and we humans have been around only an estimated 200,000 years. We can ask why create a vast and uninhabitable universe over billions of years to create beings that are less than a blip on a cosmic scale to have a relationship with?

On the other we have the clockmaker Deist view. That makes the Universe and lets it go to do it’s thing. We humans being a part of this creation. Although we are gifted with intelligence and compassion to make our way in the world, God isn’t taking a personal interest. Why create us then?

So to get back to the original question. How do you show a Deist that prayer is important since they don’t share the Christian view of prayer? Petition is pointless and Thanks isn’t needed.

You posed that their Position is irrational but seeing that the Christian view can be looked at as equally irrational, that falls short. Any other ideas for them?
 
Roscoe

So to get back to the original question. How do you show a Deist that prayer is important since they don’t share the Christian view of prayer? Petition is pointless and Thanks isn’t needed.

You don’t show a Deist anything. You invite him to try out faith and prayer to see if it works. How does he know prayer is pointless? How does he know thanks isn’t needed. The coldness of the Deist’s view is apparent. Invite him to open his heart as well as his head to a loving God.

**You posed that their Position is irrational but seeing that the Christian view can be looked at as equally irrational, that falls short. Any other ideas for them? **

The Christian view is not irrational. One of the notable things about Christianity is that it is eminently rational. Many great minds and hearts have been attracted to it. Some have refused to be attracted to it for reasons of their own … most of which can hardly be called rational so much as biased or belligerent. Deism is a kind of halfway house between Christianity and atheism. It is a pointless act of fence-sitting. We all know what a halfway house is for … those who are on a journey. They have yet to find or reach their destination.
 
You have to demonstrate the value to a Deist. It is the show me don’t tell me version of religion.

If Christianity could be gotten by reason alone there would be no need for faith and probably no such thing as Deists. 🙂
 
**You have to demonstrate the value to a Deist. It is the show me don’t tell me version of religion.
**
Christ has shown himself for 2,000 years. The Deist needs to open up his heart as well as his head.
**
If Christianity could be gotten by reason alone there would be no need for faith and probably no such thing as Deists. **

Christianity is rational but it cannot be gotten by reason alone. The heart has reasons that reason cannot understand, as Pascal so wisely observed. So far as the Deist is concerned, he has a strong head but a weak heart.

There is a famous painting by William Holman Hunt of Jesus standing at a cottage door and knocking. What’s so curious about this painting is that there is no knob or latch visible on the door. The significance of this is that the door represents the human heart, and it can only be opened from the inside.

biltrix.com/2012/04/14/behold-i-stand-at-the-door-and-knock-william-holman-hunts-light-of-the-world/
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**You have to demonstrate the value to a Deist. It is the show me don’t tell me version of religion.
**
Christ has shown himself for 2,000 years. The Deist needs to open up his heart as well as his head.
**
If Christianity could be gotten by reason alone there would be no need for faith and probably no such thing as Deists. **

Christianity is rational but it cannot be gotten by reason alone. The heart has reasons that reason cannot understand, as Pascal so wisely observed. So far as the Deist is concerned, he has a strong head but a weak heart.

There is a famous painting by William Holman Hunt of Jesus standing at a cottage door and knocking. What’s so curious about this painting is that there is no knob or latch visible on the door. The significance of this is that the door represents the human heart, and it can only be opened from the inside.

biltrix.com/2012/04/14/behold-i-stand-at-the-door-and-knock-william-holman-hunts-light-of-the-world/
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What I’m inferring though your statement and use of Pascal is : Don’t worry if it doesn’t make sense just try and feel like it does. I think this is where they will hit the wall with the Deist. You are asking them to make themselves fall in Love. Most echo Galileo’s statement :
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
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