Argument for Catholic Priesthood

[christismylord]

John 20:22-23 (ESV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

A Protestant friend argued that because the power to forgive sins apparently came from Jesus breathing on them, it was a one time thing and not passed down after the death of the apostles. And they said if anyone who wants to can be a priest, how are we sure that each one is chosen by God? They also coupled their argument with the old “royal priesthood” defense. And that because the NT apostles did not seem to give penance, what is defense for now doing this?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Why is it a one time thing? I don’t get the logic.

 

[christismylord]

Because they claimed that this was only received when Jesus personally breathed on the 11

 

[CathBoy1]

A Protestant friend argued that because the power to forgive sins apparently came from Jesus breathing on them, it was a one time thing and not passed down after the death of the apostles.

Why is it a one time thing? I don’t get the logic.

It is not a one time thing, they have to claim it is because they don’t want to admit the truth about the sacrament of reconciliation and through that the priesthood.

Their argument is silly and holds no water, saying that it only applied to those Christ breathed upon, Christ also said “pass down that which has been given to you” what do they have to say about that?

 

[CathBoy1]

The plain simple truth is the protestants like to claim that they believe in the Bible alone (slola sciptura), until a passage such as this is pointed out to them that completely disagrees with their beliefs, so they then try to . . . modify . . . the Bible to fit their beliefs. . .

 

[adamhovey1988]

So they don’t believe that the apostles had to bring Christianity to other people for other people to learn about it? Their logic doesn’t make any sense.

 

[christismylord]

Apparently they thought after the passing of the original apostles, they have the “royal priesthood for all believers” where none are above others. I agree their logic makes no sense but I’d like a way to explain it to them

 

[CathBoy1]

I agree their logic makes no sense but I’d like a way to explain it to them

Ok so ask him why it (power over sin) wouldn’t have been passed on, when shortly thereafter Christ says “pass down that which has been given to you.”
If he’s being honest there is no argument.

 

[Todd_Easton]

That the power to forgive sins passed from the apostles to the elders (priests) of the Church can be seen in James 5:14-15:

14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

 

[Dan_Defender]

If it was a one-time thing, why was it a normal unquestioned practice in the Church for 1500+ years until Luther came along? Fact: Protestantism is made up, no history to back it up.

 

[christismylord]

Sorry, can you please tell me where to find that line “pass down that which has been given to you.”

 

[CathBoy1]

Sorry, can you please tell me where to find that line “pass down that which has been given to you.”

I’m sorry I was working off of an admittedly rusty memory, I paraphrased that and attributed it to Christ.
Nonetheless the argument still holds.

The quote I was thinking of is
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Other places we can look to for the passing on of the priesthood (apostolic succession) which includes the duties of the apostles (power over sin among others) in the Bible let’s look at:
Acts 1:21-26, where you’ll see the apostles, immediately after Jesus’ Ascension, acting swiftly to replace the position left vacant by Judas’s suicide. They prayed for guidance, asking God to show them which candidate was “chosen to take the place in this apostolic ministry from which Judas turned away.” After choosing Matthias they laid hands on him to confer apostolic authority.

Why act so quick if the position didn’t hold any real power?
Why lay hands upon him for any other reason than to pass on that power?

Also let’s look at:
1 Timothy 1:6 and 4:14
Where Paul reminds Timothy that the office of bishop had been conferred on him through the laying on of hands. Notice in 1 Timothy 5:22 that Paul advises Timothy not to be hasty in handing on this authority to others (because with that authority comes actual power). In Titus Paul describes the apostolic authority Titus had received and urges him to act decisively in this leadership role.

I would also ask your pastor friend to reference a biblical, or heck even an extra- biblical early christian (1st or 2nd century) source that states when Christ breathed upon the apostles and gave them power over sin, that, that power was non-transferable, I can guarantee you he cannot provide any such source.

Lastly I would suggest your pastor friend do better homework on early Christian writings before making such silly claims. The testimony of the early Church is deafening in its unanimous (yes, unanimous) assertion of apostolic succession.
Far from being discussed by only a few, scattered writers, the belief that the apostles handed on their authority (including power over sin, among other things) to others was one of the most frequently and vociferously defended doctrines in the first centuries of Christianity.

 

[CathBoy1]

I doubt most non-denominational protestants would put much stock in the Epistle of James, at least not the ones I’ve talked to in the past, they even suggested that it should be removed from the NT, I believe Martin Luther considered doing just that back during the reformation (although I admit my knowledge of the reformation is a bit rusty).

 

[po18guy]

Has this bible expert not read Timothy and Titus? Saint Paul laid hands on them and ordained them. Saint Paul also forgave sins in the person of Christ. From the King James Version (thus, indisputable):

2 Corinthians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Furthermore the false “Call no man father” claim is also an epic fail. Christ said "Call no man your father.

Matthew 23:9 King James Version (KJV)
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Paul himself in 1 Corinthians 4 refers to himself as the spiritual father of the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 4:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

[ConstantineTheGreat]

What about Christ giving the Apostles the power to forgive sins, then? He has a very invalid point just because of that.

 

[cradlecatholic22]

Hi there. I have another question in regards to priesthood. My protestant friend understands that the Eucharist is the real presence of God and that the Priests have the power to forgive sins. He claims that they act like they are higher and better than everybody else. I have proven the authority of priests through all the ways above, but he still struggles with especially the fact that the Priest eats the Eucharist before the congregation.

I personally do not view priests as better than myself and I know that’s what matters, but he won’t see that and disapproves of them standing at the altar and claims that makes them high and mighty as if we worship them. I have told him that the Eucharistic Rite of the mass is like the Last Supper, and they are not being worshipped and they are acting in the person of Christ. That didn’t sit well either. Is there even a defense for this? I feel like I have defended this to my wits end and at this point he is just being difficult. We know God gave the priests the responsibility. Is there anything left to say?

 

[Gorgias]

A Protestant friend argued that because the power to forgive sins apparently came from Jesus breathing on them, it was a one time thing and not passed down after the death of the apostles.

We see God breathing the “breath of life” only one time, to one person (Adam, in Gen 2:7), and yet, that breath is transmitted to others – Eve, in Gen 2:22, all her children, and all humans who have ever lived. If the breath of God is only efficacious to the person upon whom it is breathed, then Adam would have died alone (and we’d never have lived!).

Besides which, where does he get this assertion from? If he’s “Bible only” (which would be my assumption), can he show from the Bible where his assertion holds up?

And they said if anyone who wants to can be a priest, how are we sure that each one is chosen by God?

It’s not the case that “anyone who wants to, can be a priest.” His argument fails on that assertion alone.

And that because the NT apostles did not seem to give penance, what is defense for now doing this?

Wouldn’t we claim that it was Jesus himself who gave the first penance? “Go and sin no more”…?

He claims that they act like they are higher and better than everybody else.

Nope. Although, admittedly, some laypeople treat them as if they were. Or, at least, the respect that they give them is interpreted as if they think that priests are ‘higher and better’. If memory serves, a Vatican II document (or a post-conciliar document) discusses this misperception and asserts that it needs to cease; it makes the claim that priests aren’t, by virtue of their ordination, “better” than the laity.

I personally do not view priests as better than myself and I know that’s what matters, but he won’t see that and disapproves of them standing at the altar and claims that makes them high and mighty as if we worship them.

Moses stood at an altar. Aaron stood at an altar. Nowhere does the Bible suggest that people worshipped them… so why does he think that Catholic priests, who stand at the altar, are worshipped?

Is there anything left to say?

Sometimes, all that’s left to do is smile and say “have a nice day; I’ll be praying for you!”

 

[CathBoy1]

He claims that they act like they are higher and better than everybody else.

but he won’t see that and disapproves of them standing at the altar and claims that makes them high and mighty as if we worship them.

I would point out that the priest is our spiritual father, and as our spiritual father leads us in our worship of God, this is one function of the priest before the altar, he is leading his congregation to God, just as Moses led the Israelites to the promised land.
If he wants a biblical reference to spiritual fathers, point out:
1 Corinthians 4:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers : for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

they are not being worshipped and they are acting in the person of Christ. That didn’t sit well either. Is there even a defense for this?

Sure there is, St Paul acts in the person of Christ here:
2 Corinthians 2:10 King James Version (KJV)
To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ ;

All of these answers were already in this thread, I’m just trying to help point them out, thanks to @po18guy for making the answers readily available in your previous post.

 

[SJacob7]

There were more than just the Apostles in that room during the time that was said.