Argument for God from Complexity

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I don’t define object that way, that is the definition of material.
this is your first premise:
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Mersenne:
  1. Anything that an object is made of is material.
that’s a definition of “object”, not “material”.
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Mersenne:
That is how it IS defined, now how I define it.
what do you mean, that’s how it IS defined? by who? the dictionary? which dictionary? and why is that one gospel?

here are some alternative definitions of “object” that i found in about 11 seconds on the web:

As used in philosophy, object is a thing, an entity, or a being. This may be taken in several senses.

In linguistics, a theta role or θ-role is the semantic role a noun phrase plays in a sentence. As such it is a semantic rather than a syntactic feature, in contrast to such notions as the subject of a sentence or a prepositional object.

In strictly mathematical branches of computer science the term object is used in a purely mathematical sense to refer to any “thing”.

A person, place, thing, or concept that has characteristics of interest to an environment.

An instance of a class.

A single, identifiable unit or entity. An object can comprise other, smaller objects.

…anyway, you get the idea - there is a multitude of definitions of “object”, because there is a multitude of ways in which the word is used. and that’s what dictionaries document: uses of the words they contain. i mean, it’s not like dictionaries are, like, written by god as giving the “real” meanings of words.
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Mersenne:
Saying something is non-material is akin to saying it’s not an object. My premise was not identical to my conclusions, though very very close,
again, your premise 1, and your conclusion:
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Mersenne:
  1. Anything that an object is made of is material.
  2. Therefore all objects are material objects.
hard to tell them apart, no?
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Mersenne:
which is why I have a hard time understanding why you struggle with this.
you think you’re having a hard time…

explain to me again how it’s so obvious that 1 and 3, above are different?
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Mersenne:
Look up the definition of material.
in which dictionary?
 
I don’t define object that way, that is the definition of material. That is how it IS defined, now how I define it. Saying something is non-material is akin to saying it’s not an object. My premise was not identical to my conclusions, though very very close, which is why I have a hard time understanding why you struggle with this. It’s not a large leap of logic. Look up the definition of material.
Augustine in his Confessions (I think it’s Chapter 7, but I’m too lazy to find it right now) explains how philosophically something can be a substance (possess a substantial nature) and still be non-physical. Since what you are wrestling with seems to be similar to something Augustine wrestled with (as a Manichee), I would recommend it.
 
Augustine in his Confessions (I think it’s Chapter 7, but I’m too lazy to find it right now) explains how philosophically something can be a substance (possess a substantial nature) and still be non-physical. Since what you are wrestling with seems to be similar to something Augustine wrestled with (as a Manichee), I would recommend it.
Dawkins in his book, God delusion, explains that God is, in fact, a delusion. Since what you are wrestling with seems to be similar, I would recommend it.
 
Dawkins in his book, God delusion, explains that God is, in fact, a delusion. Since what you are wrestling with seems to be similar, I would recommend it.
Note the not-so-subtle difference: Augustine describes “how” a substance can be non-corporeal, while Dawkins “explains” that God “is, in fact,” a delusion. In other words, Augustine presents an argument, Dawkins an assertion. I just figured it out: You’re really Dawkins in disguise, aren’t you? The styles are quite similar.
 
This is hardly a recent view. Please provide a citation from a traditional Christian theologian (i.e., one of the Church Fathers, or a medieval scholastic, or an Eastern Orthodox theologian) claiming that God exists in space. This was firmly rejected early in Christian history. Practically the only educated Christian I’ve ever heard maintain it as a possibility was a (Protestant) colleague of mine who is a philosopher (and has very little use for Christian tradition)!

See Aquinas, *Summa Theologiae, *Part 1, Question 8, Art. 1.

Edwin
I am a writer. I’m heading off to film school soon, and am now completing various movies which I wrote, directed, edited, and acted in.

I speak in euphemisms, metaphors, and perhaps more on the eloquent side then the factual one you may have been expecting.

The jist of what I was saying remains true; God has become less and less necessary as we understand more and more things.

Space was probably the wrong word, ancient people moreover said gods lived in the heavens or the clouds or the sky or what have you, and by the way, I wasn’t just referring to christians.

Ancient people thought God was the sun, or that a beetle carried the sun, or that Thor caused lightning, et cetera. That was the point.

We used to need God to explain the phenomenon of lightning (not christians necessarily, you’re not the center of the world), but now, we don’t.

We used to need God to explain the complexity of human life. Now, we don’t.

It certainly doesn’t disprove him, it just no longer makes him necessary.

Right now, we don’t know how the universe ‘started,’ assuming it even had a beginning. Seriously, we have no idea. No one does. The universe is exceedingly bizarre.

Quantum Mechanics have been proven to a degree of decimal place accuracy that is akin to measuring the width of North America to the accuracy of a single hair.

Yet, as a physicist put it, “If you think you understand Quantum Mechanics, you don’t understand Quantum Mechanics.”

We cannot understand the assumptions that Quantum Mechanics makes, yet by the degree of accuracy, it must in some sense be true.

How can this be? Well, really, think about it. Who do we think we are anyway? We evolved to survive in this world. Quantum Mechanics have no bearing on our everyday lives, so brains that were capable of understanding it were not more likely to survive. Hence, we didn’t develop the understanding.

And yes, everything that we see in our day to day lives has a direct cause, so that instinct is naturally built into our brains to help us survive. You push a boulder, it falls. Maybe you use that to kill an attacking mountain lion. You survive and pass on those traits.

The point is, certainly none of us can really understand how God just is, unless you’re kidding yourself. Theologians admit this; it is a mystery.

There’s nothing wrong with that, of course, unless you try to pretend that your mystery somehow solves the mystery of how the universe came about.

Again, to be clear, it is not an argument against God, but it cannot be used as an argument for God (hence the name of the thread).

If only things that change through time require a cause, maybe the universe has been around forever.

Or, maybe the universe’s laws will eventually come down to some very simple rule, something that could be called “God” in a kind of pantheistic mindset, something like string theory may do.

Or, maybe the law of causation only proves true to things inside the universe, not to the universe itself.

Or, maybe string theory will eventually be proven and show that the collision of two branes caused the big bang.

Or, maybe some other brand new theory, as revolutionary and hard to understand as evolution, will come along and gain scientific consensus within the next 100, 1000, or 10000 years, who knows.

All of these are perfectly valid explantions. What remains to be determined are which premises are true.

That’s the missing link. We don’t know what premises are true. We can’t go and test things outside the universe, or test the universe or existence itself. Maybe someday, but not now. We just don’t know.

I do know, though, that it is very pointless to answer a mystery with another mystery, a question with another question.
 
A piece of friendly (honestly) advice: You are a writer, a filmmaker, an actor, a director, and so on. Here’s the advice: “To whom much is given, much is required.” If you are going to make films touching upon the topics discussed on this thread, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get accurate and knowledgeable consultants.
 
The jist of what I was saying remains true; God has become less and less necessary as we understand more and more things.
This jist is still incorrect - God, certainly the God of the Jews, the Christians, and even the Muslims, has been only passively concerned with explaining the natural world with God. Morality, law, purpose - typically the things science can hardly inform on. Yes, nature has been cast as the work of God; but even things people understood was cast the same way. (Saying grace/thanks be to God at the dinner table. Those people knew where their food came from, they had a very real idea of how planting, harvesting, etc worked. And still they gave thanks.)

Not to mention the advances of science hasn’t always gone the way the atheistically inclined predicted. The idea of the universe, planets, etc existing in a relatively eternal, static state was a part of many naturalists’ faith - and the Big Bang wasn’t a very pleasant surprise. Not to mention the idea that time itself could have a beginning.

You’re trying to paint a certain picture here, but it more and more sounds like a wishful-thinking reading of history than an actual study with intent to find out what actually happened.
 
Maybe just one more try: You wrote, “We used to need God to explain the complexity of human life.” This is the misconception with which you began this thread, and, apparently, will end it with as well.

The COMPLEXITY of existence doesn’t require God as an explanation.
The FACT of existence requires God as an explanation.

For the reasons for this–well, I’m not going to re-list all the previous posts.🤷
 
Note the not-so-subtle difference: Augustine describes “how” a substance can be non-corporeal, while Dawkins “explains” that God “is, in fact,” a delusion. In other words, Augustine presents an argument, Dawkins an assertion. I just figured it out: You’re really Dawkins in disguise, aren’t you? The styles are quite similar.
That’s interesting because Dawkins defines himself in the book as one who assigns a very low probability to the existence of god. He assigns a probability that is very low, but greater than zero. He likens it to the Russell’s small teapot orbiting the sun between Mars and Jupiter. He can’t completely rule it out, but the probability is very low.
 
Why would god be any more necessary for complexity to exist than for simplicity to exist?
 
Note the not-so-subtle difference: Augustine describes “how” a substance can be non-corporeal, while Dawkins “explains” that God “is, in fact,” a delusion. In other words, Augustine presents an argument, Dawkins an assertion. I just figured it out: You’re really Dawkins in disguise, aren’t you? The styles are quite similar.
He doesn’t, for the record, that’s why the book is longer then just the title. But your lack of grasp on reality seems to know no bounds.
 
He doesn’t, for the record, that’s why the book is longer then just the title. But your lack of grasp on reality seems to know no bounds.
sigh.

do you understand dawkins’ arguments in that book? if so, why don’t you explain them here simply and we’ll see just how good they are.
 
This argument sounds to me like a variant of the cosmological argument for the existence of God. It also sounds like elements of the first cause argument are here as well. Perhaps there are two main arguments here which try to establish God exists.

Premise 1: The universe displays an amazing and beautiful variety and diversity of objects/creatures all in harmony and order with each other

Premise 2) The universe could not have produced such complexity on its own through blind chance

Premise 3) The logical altnerative to blind chance is a intelligent creator making a universe with this beautiful diversity and harmony of objects and laws

Conclusion: The cosmic totality was designed, constructed and made by God.

First cause argument:

Premise 1) All beings in the universe are contingent
Premise 2) Nothing can come from nothing
Premise 3) Therefore all beings must derive from a Being which is not changeable, which is eternal and perfect
Conclusion: Because the only Being which is not changeable and perfect is God as philosophical theism defines it, all beings in the universe are made by God, who is their source, origin, and cause.

These arguments were known to St Thomas and regularly used in Christian apologetics, though skeptics like David Hume and Kant questioned whether the order and beauty of the universe can be used to infer the existence of God. The Church has affirmed the existence of God can be known by reason, through intelligent analogy in terms of the beauty and perfections of created things, which though exist at an infinitely higher level of perfection within the divine essence itself.
 
sigh.

do you understand dawkins’ arguments in that book? if so, why don’t you explain them here simply and we’ll see just how good they are.
My point exactly. But I guess you haven’t been following the discussion.
 
My point exactly. But I guess you haven’t been following the discussion.
I’m sorry, I must have missed something. Are you saying your point exactly is that you don’t understand the arguments made in Dawkins’ book?

Considering we needed to go to Phil 101 with explanations of immaterial versus material and corporeal in philosophy, you shouldn’t trying to score zingers. :cool:
 
I’m sorry, I must have missed something. Are you saying your point exactly is that you don’t understand the arguments made in Dawkins’ book?

Considering we needed to go to Phil 101 with explanations of immaterial versus material and corporeal in philosophy, you shouldn’t trying to score zingers. :cool:
Sadly, that’s right.

Last time I counted, there were something like four arguments posted regarding how the universe needs an uncaused cause (including a very long and technical discussion of the kalaam argument), at least two explanations of how God can be uncaused even though not exempt from the principle of sufficient reason, philosophical explanations of substance, object, and materiality, and several attempts to point out that one cannot include the conclusion as a premise in a logical argument. Counter to that, we get absolute non-responses.

I’m all for being charitable and helping people along as much as possible, but speaking for myself, we’ll see you all elsewhere on other threads. I am not upset by this thread, nor do I feel any rancor while I’m writing this. However, it’s time for me to move on, and commit everyone involved in the discussion into the gracious and merciful care of God.
:blessyou:
 
I’m sorry, I must have missed something. Are you saying your point exactly is that you don’t understand the arguments made in Dawkins’ book?

Considering we needed to go to Phil 101 with explanations of immaterial versus material and corporeal in philosophy, you shouldn’t trying to score zingers. :cool:
Yes, you did miss something, so you’re really the one who shouldn’t be trying to score zingers. I wasn’t the one trying to use “go read this book” as a substitution for a real arguement. Interesting that you would jump on my case about that but not the person actually doing it. I guess you’ll shove your fingers as far into your ears as you have to, to avoid learning that god is pretend.
 
Yes, you did miss something, so you’re really the one who shouldn’t be trying to score zingers. I wasn’t the one trying to use “go read this book” as a substitution for a real arguement. Interesting that you would jump on my case about that but not the person actually doing it. I guess you’ll shove your fingers as far into your ears as you have to, to avoid learning that god is pretend.
what are you, 12?

if you’d like to discuss the (de)merits of dawkins’ arguments, then let’s…but this stuff you’re posting is juvenile. seriously.

there are a number of outstanding answers to your arguments on this thread, more than one of which is from me. howabout you spend some time responding to those in a well-reasoned manner, instead of doing the online equivalent of holding your breath and stomping your feet?
 
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