Arguments against reincarnation

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Look at you, LifeIsAbsurd-------an Atheist seemingly willing to defend Reincarnation!!! šŸ™‚

Just find it funny. Carry on. šŸ‘
Somebody sneaked a microvideo camera in an atheist’s meeting. The devil appeared and gave them a pep talk.

"Remember, A-team. Our priority is to get the suckers to believe there’s no God. Be advised we’re not going to get everybody to believe that.

Failing priority one, our priority two is to get people to believe some other kind of nonsense like reincarnation. Where there’s no final death but souls always get another life to live, there is no punishment, no loss, no reason not to do whatever you want, no requirement to accept responsibility for choices. That’s what we want the insects to believe

Remember the three unholy words: deceive, unbelieve, relieve. Deceive them with the wrong philosophy. Promote unbelief in the truth. Relieve them of their souls."
 
Somebody sneaked a microvideo camera in an atheist’s meeting. The devil appeared and gave them a pep talk.

"Remember, A-team. Our priority is to get the suckers to believe there’s no God. Be advised we’re not going to get everybody to believe that.

Failing priority one, our priority two is to get people to believe some other kind of nonsense like reincarnation. Where there’s no final death but souls always get another life to live, there is no punishment, no loss, no reason not to do whatever you want, no requirement to accept responsibility for choices. That’s what we want the insects to believe

Remember the three unholy words: deceive, unbelieve, relieve. Deceive them with the wrong philosophy. Promote unbelief in the truth. Relieve them of their souls."
Excellent point. šŸ‘šŸ‘
 
Somebody sneaked a microvideo camera in an atheist’s meeting. "Remember, A-team. Our priority is to get the suckers to believe there’s no God. Be advised we’re not going to get everybody to believe that.
Ordinary Melkite:
Excellent point.
Yes, because, of course, anyone who disagrees with you is knowingly lying. :rolleyes:
 
What laws and underlings? :confused:
That was my question.
What makes the system work?
šŸæ
:coffeeread:
:sleep:
The first men to record a solar eclipse knew what they had seen, but didn’t know what had caused it, nor what laws and/or beings were at play. The first step in understanding the phenomenon the OP’s friend is experiencing would be to investigate, to collect and record and research as much firsthand evidence as possible with an open mind, and I already suggested steps for that. empther, if you wish to know the leading theories on reincarnation, Google or your local library is your friend. Most are karmatic, some are not. I won’t be paraphrasing them today, but do enjoy your popcorn and your cappuccino. šŸ‘
 
Okay, I’ve asked here some of the questions raised here.

Concerning the ā€œwho decides?ā€ thing, she does say there is a godly judgement involved in deciding who gets reincarnated as what. She says she rejects pantheism.

Concerning the memory thing, she says that you do at the end of your life get judged as per the Christian viewpoint and go to purgatory and eventually heaven, but while you are there you are ā€œoutside timeā€. I didn’t quite get what being ā€œoutside timeā€ meant although I asked several times but I guess it means that ā€œworld timeā€ does not apply there so when you do come back (as at some point, having spent enough time in paradise you will long for another life) you could be reincarnated at any other period in history. I asked whether this meant that there could be two or more people living simulatneously who share the same soul but she says no, that isn’t so. She says that before you are born you leave your memory behind and start with a clean slate but can reclaim your past memory after you have died. But that memory does leave certain traces in the living that people with sufficient training can access.
 
if people are reincarnated, how does the population increase? Where do these people come from? Who was the first person who ever existed reincarted from? What stop me from jumping off cliff after cliff until i get the life i want, and then do it all over again?
 
Concerning the memory thing, she says that you do at the end of your life get judged as per the Christian viewpoint and go to purgatory and eventually heaven…]
Is her belief of her pass life result in any problematic behaviours? It sounds like she is a Christian with some slightly different beliefs. Were there more people like her I would think she was of a different denomination.
 
There is no explanation for why this imagined cycle of births and rebirths began.

There is no mechanism for how this system of birth and rebirth is administered, and how and by whom the individual is judged. Saying it is a product of ā€œKarmaā€ explains nothing.

Our first life on the earth would not have included any past evils for which we would have to provide expiation.

For those Christians (?) who espouse reincarnation, it clearly contradicts the Bible: Hebrews 9:27, ā€œit is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment.ā€
 
I am looking for good arguments agiants reincranation. Not biblical ones please as the person isn’t convinced by that. Are there any sound arguments drawing on philosophy? Sort of the equivalent of Pascal’s Wager maybe?
Why would Jesus come to bring us everlasing life if we can perpetuate our own existence for ourselves?

Why did he die on the cross?

If there was another way …why would He say that He is the Way and the Truth and the Life?
 
Okay, I’ve asked here some of the questions raised here.

Concerning the ā€œwho decides?ā€ thing, she does say there is a godly judgement involved in deciding who gets reincarnated as what. She says she rejects pantheism.
Cirdan:

Many reincarnationist theories (RT’s) are not pantheistic, so that fits. In some RT’s there is no one who makes or sets up the rules. Each soul decides for itself, usually with lots of baggage from that pesky past life. In other RT’s certain souls achieve higher states and are considered ā€œteachers.ā€ In still others, loose souls can choose a consensus type of rule, and impose, or, at least, suggest it to their brethren. So, there’s lots of discord. Oh, and by the way, it lends itself well to the instantiation of ā€œnewā€ RT’s and practices.

I once spoke to an RT believer who told me that when souls are loose, there’s no rhyme or reason where said soul ends up next; there’s no dictate that specifies that the ensuing life form be human. He said that they’re cult believes that a loose soul could end up in any life form.

Of course, I asked if that also meant bacteria, to which he replied, ā€œYes. And, even plants.ā€

I said that if I get to choose, I’d like not to find myself in an amoeba in some forsaken sludge pond, somewhere. He asked, ā€œWhy?ā€ And I said, because "Amoeba don’t die. They replicate by simple cell division, which means, the old one lives when the new one is made. So, I can see myself living for eternity as an amoeba, which is of no interest to me. (BTW, he also believed that our souls were infinitely eternal: no date of creation, and no date of ultimate passing away.)
Concerning the memory thing, she says that you do at the end of your life get judged as per the Christian viewpoint and go to purgatory and eventually heaven, but while you are there you are ā€œoutside timeā€. I didn’t quite get what being ā€œoutside timeā€ meant although I asked several times but I guess it means that ā€œworld timeā€ does not apply there so when you do come back (as at some point, having spent enough time in paradise you will long for another life) you could be reincarnated at any other period in history.
This theory is not unusual. RT requires that souls have an existential duration of their own, with each theory defining that duration differently.
I asked whether this meant that there could be two or more people living simulatneously who share the same soul but she says no, that isn’t so.
In my experience with the RT (above) he said that no two people could share one soul, but, that any one person could share many souls. These sharings of many souls are what caused aberrations within animated life forms.
She says that before you are born you leave your memory behind and start with a clean slate but can reclaim your past memory after you have died. But that memory does leave certain traces in the living that people with sufficient training can access.
The man I spoke with indicated that you absolutely kept your memories and your personality. And, you knew that you had existed in another body before, perhaps thousands of times. Further, he suggested that the quanta of life submerges these facts from most of us, and, in order to find them, there are certain ritualistic things that one must go through to bring them back to the surface.

Which RT do you like?

God bless,
jd
 
if people are reincarnated, how does the population increase? Where do these people come from? Who was the first person who ever existed reincarted from? What stop me from jumping off cliff after cliff until i get the life i want, and then do it all over again?
3NailRenewal:

Yes. Very good points. From the perspective of a fellow I know that is a reincanationist, he simply says that ā€œour souls are 75 - 95 billion years old, and that’s that! Who cares how or who created them, after 95 billion years! Irrelevant question!ā€ This sentiment seems to be fairly common among the reincarnationist theories (RT’s), to some degree or other. (75 - 95 billion years is almost infinity, I guess.)

You are stopped from jumping of a cliff over and over again because Life is a priority that is held onto by us by a sort of uber-natural law. In other RT’s how we treat our lives is important to how we will ultimately end up.

Population increases because these free-floating souls are constantly seeking life forms to infest, oops!, rather, occupy, and they will occupy a new life form within seconds after conception, or meiosis. Oh, and there may be trillions of ā€œsouls.ā€ They don’t know exactly.

I’m not making this up!

God bless,
jd
 
Sometimes I wonder if there isn’t some ray of truth in the idea of reincarnation. For instance, what if purgatory is actually reincarnation? We know that nothing perfect and clean goes before God, so what if he sends souls to purgatory, which is actually here on earth? The experiences here and how we deal with them would then be our cleansing. That would explain things like some people experiencing great amounts suffering vs those who have small amounts of suffering. Those who need ā€˜more cleansing’ have more suffering here on earth. It could also explain past life experiences that have been verified (and there are quite a few out there; it’s hard to deny all of them).

I’m not saying this is my personal belief, but it is a possibility. We don’t know 100% what God actually does or how he purifies our souls. It’s a possibility.
 
My experience of reincarnation is such that I have full memory of my last death, of being in the spirit between lives and of standing above my parents of this life before I was born one month later. I am spiritual and have connection with the Spirit and can tell you there is no heaven or hell nor are there any devils, angels or saints. I know that will shock a lot of people but it is fact. In my last life I was a man and in this one a woman.

My earliest memories are of things that occurred not long after my birth and I was a gifted child with a different language to my new family. In fact, the accent stayed with me until well into my 20’s and at school the nuns put me 2 classes ahead for my age. This life has been spent sorting out where all the myths and confusion have come from and to know why these things have happened.

Whilst the thread is for arguments against reincarnation I felt that my contribution may help.
 
Depending on who you talk too there is sometimes a belief that your next life will be better if you do good in your current one. Your identity may not carry forward, but the investment of good actions may result in a payoff in your next life. Though some believe that remnants of memories their past lives do carry forward.
The problem with that is that if you think it to the end, the lack of continuity of consciousness would mean that you aren’t really being born again at all but it would mean that you are dying completely (ie, no heaven, no hell, death is just the end) but that your soul is being cannibalised to make a new soul. A bit like old automobiles being cannibalised on the scrapyard to recover parts that are re-used, or molten down to make new cars.

I find this trivilaises the concept of eternal life. Maybe your car contains some metal that was recycled dozens of times but that may have been part of a Model T Ford. Does that make your shiny new car a Model T?
 
A good one I’ve heard goes something like this.

Reincarnation means that after I die my memory gets wiped out and my soul goes into a new body, and I begin life again. The cycle continues. The thing is, if my memory and personal experiences are totally wiped clean, then it seems like I have no continuity with past life. This seems to mean that the reincarnated person is actually a totally different person, which contradicts the reincarnation hypothesis.

In short, continuity of personal identity is hard to account for on reincarnation.
I think the idea is that your actions in this life follow you into the next. For Catholics, that amounts to the Doctrine of Purgatory. For Vedic philosophers, it meant reincarnation. Perhaps they are the same thing?
 
But if my identity does not carry forward, then how can you say that ā€œIā€ am being reincarnated, or that ā€œIā€ lived a previous life? What is being created is a totally new person.

What do you mean it doesn’t apply to the person in question? That is the central belief of reincarnation. That when a person dies ā€œtheirā€ soul begins life again in another body.
Second, I point out how there is no continuity. A total wiping of past memories and sense of past identity means that the soul is for all practical purposes a different soul. It makes no sense to that say, Hitler was reincarnated as me. I have no memory of that life and am a totally different person. The same would apply to anyone else. Hence there is no continuity of personal identity, which is a problem for the reincarnation hypothosis.

Or think of it this way. On reincarnation, the soul is a hard drive that gets wiped totally clean (because I have no memory of past life). It is reincarnated into a new computer. Is that the same computer or a different one? Obviously, a different one. So this doesn’t really allow for continuity of personal identity.

No, that is not good enough. It’s most basic problem is that it does not allow for continuity of personal identity.

Now, a person could admit everything I say, that there is no continuity of personal identity, that a wholly new person is formed, and that it makes no sense to talk about ā€œmeā€ having lived a past life as Hitler or someone else. But In this case, what is the point of believing in reincarnation then?
How are you defining personal identity? Does it rely on memories of experiences?
 
But the new arrangement of the tectonic plates was unpredictable. Not so reincarnation, in which the soul finds another human body. ( I know some groups in India think the soul can spend a life in animals or even insects, but reincarnationists like Shirley MacLaine won’t buy that. )
Caterpillas metamorphize into butterflies via a predictable process,* but it’s still the same living creature! *
Not so the reincarnated soul which is a new being.
Are you saying that your being consists entirely in your memories of this life? If you were somehow to incur total amnesia, would that mean you no longer have a soul?
 
Somebody sneaked a microvideo camera in an atheist’s meeting. The devil appeared and gave them a pep talk.

"Remember, A-team. Our priority is to get the suckers to believe there’s no God. Be advised we’re not going to get everybody to believe that.

Failing priority one, our priority two is to get people to believe some other kind of nonsense like reincarnation. Where there’s no final death but souls always get another life to live, there is no punishment, no loss, no reason not to do whatever you want, no requirement to accept responsibility for choices. That’s what we want the insects to believe

Remember the three unholy words: deceive, unbelieve, relieve. Deceive them with the wrong philosophy. Promote unbelief in the truth. Relieve them of their souls."
Actually, the devil’s top priority is simpler than that. Just steer them away from Catholicism. What you present as an alternative is less important than steering them away.
 
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